What Dose One Know For Sure?

[taltho]

Since I know That I don't know for sure. I thought someone else here might know for sure, I'm still not sure. hum...??? Is there any thing we're (as humans) sure of? How would we know for sure if we where, or where not?

[Tsen]

Frankly, I don't give a damn. I've seen a million and a half threads with similar catch lines. I do have to give you kudos, though--at least you didn't use a cliche'd Matrix reference. A better question-- Does it matter?

[Ben_]

The only thing sure in this life is that you ARE GOING TO DIE/.// so ...stop asking and do something about it.

[taltho]

Frankly, I don't give a damn. I've seen a million and a half threads with similar catch lines. I do have to give you kudos, though--at least you didn't use a cliche'd Matrix reference.[/b] I don't exactly understand, what do you mean? I came by this question while taping/texturing a church in Alaska. The preacher, after a few days of discussing religion and religious theorem. He was a master degree in ministry or perching whatever you call it. Well on the third day he showed up and asked me what I knew for sure, I answered by saying I don't know for sure. I also thought it may be something to philosophically ponder...hum? A better question-- Does it matter? [/b] Dose anything matter/Is there anything that matters? The only thing sure in this life is that you ARE GOING TO DIE/.// so ...stop asking and do something about it. [/b] Yes you are surly going to die. And you are always doing something about it whether or not you realize it.

[~Erin~]

Yeah. The only thing I'm sure that I know and I hope the entire world knows is, that in the end we live and then we die.

[OneRyt]

I agree in that there are too many threads like this on here. For real, if you want discussion, there should be a java chat room, or an IRC chat room for Dreamviews. I find it really unnerving when there are like... 12 different people trying to be philosophical, and half of them have barely even researched anything into what they're talking about. (Not directed directly at the OP, but in general) On the actual topic at hand... I feel as though human's have reached a certain pinnacle in logical thinking/mastery, but have left all thought of spirituality (in a scientific sense) in the dust. Without a balance of all three: physical, logical, spiritual; we are handicapped. edit: btw, you spelt "does" wrong.

[Neruo]

The only thing you can be absolutely certain of is your own conscious... to some extend. Everything else however, you can guess at it's likeability's. For instance, the chance that the chair I am sitting on is real within this reality, is pretty large.

[Tsen]

Use the freaking search function, taltho. There have been a million and a half threads like this one--but rather than do a brief check to see if there already is one, you post a cliche'd, old, reused and POINTLESS question. If this is a perfect illusion and we have no way of knowing what's really going on, then why does it matter? Why not live it up and enjoy the illusion? Isn't it so close to reality at that point that we might as well consider it as such? Therefore, the question is moot because no matter what the answer is, things remain the same. To OneRyt--we had a PHP chat back before switching to IPB, and then after we switched we had a flash based chat until a security flaw was found. We do have an IRC channel, though. Darkmyst server, #dreamviews channel if I remember correctly--but then, I have a bad memory, so maybe you should search around for it.

[Conforming Non-Conformist]

death...die!

[taltho]

The only thing you can be absolutely certain of is your own conscious... to some extend. Everything else however, you can guess at it's likeability's. For instance, the chance that the chair I am sitting on is real within this reality, is pretty large. [/b] Are you sure? Use the freaking search function, taltho. There have been a million and a half threads like this one--but rather than do a brief check to see if there already is one, you post a cliche'd, old, reused and POINTLESS question. If this is a perfect illusion and we have no way of knowing what's really going on, then why does it matter? Why not live it up and enjoy the illusion? Isn't it so close to reality at that point that we might as well consider it as such? Therefore, the question is moot because no matter what the answer is, things remain the same.[/b] I'm glad to see you have interest in my thread. Or...is that an illusion? It matters because it's really going on. Why do you keep talking about illusions? Is that what we know for sure, are illusions? How is the question moot? And what remains the same? The illusions we suppose are real, isn't that desire? (another subject) Next time I'll use the search if that makes you happy!

[Nyx]

Are there seriously that many people just flooding this section of the forum with old topics that people need to fuss and get angry at someone? No, so simma down in my opinion.

[Neruo]

Are you sure? [/b] Yes, actually. At least I am certain that within the reality of my own conscious, my own conscious exist. Within our reality, I can never know or the chair is real (within it's own reality), or an image from a higher reality (a magical-jesus-chair). Or something. I think, therefor I am.

[CryoDragoon]

"Cogito Ergo Sum" I think, therefore I am... a quote that belongs to Descartes, a philosopher who tried to do the same thing as you: wipe away everything we see and believe, and try to think about what we know FOR SURE... and if you think about it... all of his points are soooo true... he started with this issue: can we REALLY trust what we experience? is empirism the answer? and his first answer was "No". he said that this could all be deceived, like a straw in water: the straw looks like it's bent, but it really isn't. So: what do we know now? 1) There is doubt. and through doubt, we can come to wisdom (to add a quote: Dubium sapientiae initium (doubt is the origin of wisdom)) the second issue: "there is mind" do you hear that little voice, back there in your head? that's mind... i don't know whose mind it is... mine, yours, my dog's, martians', the matrix', but i DO know there is mind... to which his all famous quote follows: "Cogito Ergo Sum" so: 2) I think, therefor I am (in which "I" is "Mind") the third issue: Is this the real world? can i be sure that this isn't a dream, or deceiving? in short: can i trust on what my senses tell me, is it real what i see/hear (etc.)? the answer is "Yes", you can... Imagine a man born without sense, he cannot see, he cannot hear, he cannot fell (etc.) anything. IS THIS MAN CAPABLE OF KNOWING HE'S ALIVE? the answer is "no"... he can't he doesn't have any kind of knowledge to support it, he simply cannot know he's alive... now, he also cannot imagine anything. He cannot (for example) imagine himself a car. he cannot imagine anything at all. simply because he does not know anything. so: 3) There are senses, and these senses are accurate. (and: there is a body) now: Can our mind not deceive us? no, because "mind" is intangible, and can something tangible be created from tangible? no 4) This is the real world, because nothing can be created out of nothingness. (quote: "Ex nihilo nihil fit", Nothing comes out of nothing). so: what do we really know? -There is mind/I, so mind/I exist -There is a material world, and this one's it -There are senses, and there is a body (me) so... have fun with it ^^ (fun fact: this posts is my 666th (see post-count to the left ^^)

[O'nus]

"Cogito Ergo Sum" [/b] I read the thread name and the posts before yours thinking, "Oh boy, time to whip out ye old cogito" but you came to the rescue. Yay! A lot of philosophers do not believe that truth even exists. Let me propose somes questions to consider: What is truth? Is truth truly just transcendence from ignorance or resolution of deception? Is it possible that the only reason why you believe somethings are certain is because there is no experience of them happening otherwise? Thus, the moment that certainty acts otherwise, that certainty is no longer true. This is called the dependency of the uniform nature of the world. I hope I stirred the pot. ~

[taltho]

"Cogito Ergo Sum" I think, therefore I am... a quote that belongs to Descartes, a philosopher who tried to do the same thing as you: wipe away everything we see and believe, and try to think about what we know FOR SURE... and if you think about it... all of his points are soooo true... he started with this issue: can we REALLY trust what we experience? is empirism the answer? and his first answer was "No". he said that this could all be deceived, like a straw in water: the straw looks like it's bent, but it really isn't. So: what do we know now? 1) There is doubt. and through doubt, we can come to wisdom (to add a quote: Dubium sapientiae initium (doubt is the origin of wisdom)) the second issue: "there is mind" do you hear that little voice, back there in your head? that's mind... i don't know whose mind it is... mine, yours, my dog's, martians', the matrix', but i DO know there is mind... to which his all famous quote follows: "Cogito Ergo Sum" so: 2) I think, therefor I am (in which "I" is "Mind") the third issue: Is this the real world? can i be sure that this isn't a dream, or deceiving? in short: can i trust on what my senses tell me, is it real what i see/hear (etc.)? the answer is "Yes", you can... Imagine a man born without sense, he cannot see, he cannot hear, he cannot fell (etc.) anything. IS THIS MAN CAPABLE OF KNOWING HE'S ALIVE? the answer is "no"... he can't he doesn't have any kind of knowledge to support it, he simply cannot know he's alive... now, he also cannot imagine anything. He cannot (for example) imagine himself a car. he cannot imagine anything at all. simply because he does not know anything. so: 3) There are senses, and these senses are accurate. (and: there is a body) now: Can our mind not deceive us? no, because "mind" is intangible, and can something tangible be created from tangible? no 4) This is the real world, because nothing can be created out of nothingness. (quote: "Ex nihilo nihil fit", Nothing comes out of nothing). so: what do we really know? -There is mind/I, so mind/I exist -There is a material world, and this one's it -There are senses, and there is a body (me) so... have fun with it ^^ (fun fact: this posts is my 666th (see post-count to the left ^^) [/b] Wow, pleasant surprise I learned something here, didn't think I would. Thank you for the reply. 666? How dare you have one. That number should be banned. Now I must ponder what O'nus has said.

[♥Mark]

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[taltho]

HI Mark75 What post?

[Neruo]

now: Can our mind not deceive us? no, because "mind" is intangible, and can something tangible be created from tangible? no 4) This is the real world, because nothing can be created out of nothingness. (quote: "Ex nihilo nihil fit", Nothing comes out of nothing). so: what do we really know? -There is a material world, and this one's it [/b] lol B/S. I though I saw my dad grandma yesterday, however it turned out to be some stranger. However, I did saw her, so she has to be alive!!!1!!!

[CryoDragoon]

lol B/S. I though I saw my dEad grandma yesterday, however it turned out to be some stranger. However, I did saw her, so she has to be alive!!!1!!! [/b] oh... then i guess i have described that part somewhat poorly... my notebook for philosophy i use at school can be somewhat... messy sometimes... that, and i have to somehow translate that to english AND try to make it sound like it makes sense... so... but anyway: "There is doubt" (see point 1 in my previous post ^^) btw: it didn't say the person before you was your grandmother because you THOUGHT the person before you was your grandmother... but that the person (which you thought to be your grandmother) who stood before you EXISTS!!!! your senses did NOT deceive you: you saw the person, and so the person exists... that is one pretty f*cked up explanation... i'll try it another way: -you see a person who looks like your grandma, now whether or not it is your grandma, that person still exists... yes... that's better... but i still ain't satisfied with the way i explained it...

[Neruo]

oh... then i guess i have described that part somewhat poorly... my notebook for philosophy i use at school can be somewhat... messy sometimes... that, and i have to somehow translate that to english AND try to make it sound like it makes sense... so... but anyway: "There is doubt" (see point 1 in my previous post ^^) [/b] I totally agree on the other points. Descartes did had some point (from what I know of him). But he got a bit carried away, apparently with over-judging the human mind, but also with some 'god' illusion that was common at the time.

[CryoDragoon]

"i can imagine the highest one, so he must exist" that was his reason to say that god exists, if i recall correctly... and yeah... i still can't follow the reasoning behind that one...

[King and God]

One can only know one's existance and what one's thoughts are when they are being thought. Other than that, there is nothing that can be known for sure. It doesn't bother me too much though, as I don't feel any need to know everything for sure.

[Neruo]

"i can imagine the highest one, so he must exist" that was his reason to say that god exists, if i recall correctly... and yeah... i still can't follow the reasoning behind that one... [/b] 'Unbelievers just can't see it' or something like that is a remark I heard more often from any kind of spiritual/metaphysical/religious orientation. Maybe Descartes had this platform of thinking that was perfectly 'normal' and interchangeable on all subjects, but his platform of thinking not just needed, but in advance already had belief in some sort of higher form. Perhaps. I think there are certain assumptions and ideas so deeply in the base of your reasoning that they are almost impossible to change.

[taltho]

I read the thread name and the posts before yours thinking, "Oh boy, time to whip out ye old cogito" but you came to the rescue. Yay! A lot of philosophers do not believe that truth even exists. Let me propose somes questions to consider: What is truth? Is truth truly just transcendence from ignorance or resolution of deception? Is it possible that the only reason why you believe somethings are certain is because there is no experience of them happening otherwise? Thus, the moment that certainty acts otherwise, that certainty is no longer true. This is called the dependency of the uniform nature of the world. I hope I stirred the pot. ~ [/b] Truth, may be what is, only as one sees it. Is truth truly just transcendence from ignorance or resolution of deception? Yes it is, I believe. Is it possible that the only reason why you believe somethings are certain is because there is no experience of them happening otherwise? Otherwise? What is the purpose to believe without experience? There are only questions in such a case and one dose really not know. Thus, the moment that certainty acts otherwise, that certainty is no longer true. How can one be certain of that? This is called the dependency of the uniform nature of the world. How much dose one really depend on uniformity, and what dose one do when the depended perspective of uniformity changes due to greater awareness? What dose that do to uniform awareness? Questions are enlightenment answers are dependent perspectives.

[taltho]

One can only know one's existance and what one's thoughts are when they are being thought. Other than that, there is nothing that can be known for sure. It doesn't bother me too much though, as I don't feel any need to know everything for sure. [/b] What if I remember my thoughts is that real? No one can know everything for sure. But I'm not sure of that.