My Dad told me this once... it changed my life

**dan_m88** · 08-09-2004 10:17 AM

I'll try to keep this short and simple.

To compare Atheism and religion as a whole.

If you're an atheist and believe that when you die thats it, you're done, nothing, *insert strange dream philosophies here*, and you think that everything just stops for you. What if then you died, and you stood before the Almighty and he said "why didn't you believe in me?"

The point is.... what do you have to lose in life? NOTHING! But in eternity? you have absolutely everyting to lose. So why not believe?

**Lucius** · 08-09-2004 10:41 AM

I am a believer but I am not a Christian and I dont believe you will be judged by some sort of super being, the only one that will judge you is yourself.

I always tell myself that I continue to live by compassion, kindness etc always, wherever I might end up, whatever might happen, I feel deep inside of my heart that that is the way, and I will do everything I can do ease the suffering of others and do the best possible thing there is do help out others and to be good to the planet. And if I go against the rules of some super being by doing that I frankly dont care one bit. I know that what I am doing is the right thing, as I know that everything that doesnt hurt yourself, others, or the planet is not wrong, permanent. And if that super being would doom me for that, so be it. My quote: "I would cry forever in hell"

**limited755** · 08-09-2004 12:04 PM

If you're an atheist and believe that when you die thats it, you're done, nothing, *insert strange dream philosophies here*, and you think that everything just stops for you.[/b]

Exactly. And if you're dead, then you don't think or dream, you just cease to exist.

But if this is so, then what is the purpose of life? Why live a life if when we die there is nothing?

**Maystar** · 08-09-2004 01:04 PM

the purpose of life is to uproot all our negative traits, stop living in the 1% and open ourselves to the other 99% that hides behind a curtain. gaining awareness and enlightenment is what this life is all about....

as for your dad, why close your mind off to anything if it doesn't harm you?

**limited755** · 08-09-2004 01:29 PM

the purpose of life is to uproot all our negative traits, stop living in the 1% and open ourselves to the other 99% that hides behind a curtain. gaining awareness and enlightenment is what this life is all about.... [/b]

Amen!

**spoon** · 08-09-2004 02:43 PM

Originally posted by dan_m88

The point is.... what do you have to lose in life? NOTHING! But in eternity? you have absolutely everyting to lose. So why not believe?

Have you ever heard of pascal's wager? That's pretty much the gist of it. I'll re-iterate it here. stolen from wikipedia.

* You may believe in God, and God exists, in which case you go to heaven.
* You may believe in God, and God doesn't exist, in which case you gain nothing.
* You may not believe in God, and God doesn't exist, in which you gain nothing again.
* You may not believe in God, and God may exist, in which case you will be punished.
[/b]

Couple of problems I see with that:

1. It doesn't really work with multiple religions in mind. Believing in the wrong god would still end up with you in hell.

2. Lets assume you dont beleive in god (whichever one). Starting to believe in him/her/it because you want to hedge all bets seems a bit... intellectually dishonest to me. Even assuming you could entirely convince yourself to believe you'd still have that nagging detail of suppressed nonbelief in your subconcious.

3. Lets say you believe as a result of this wager. Don't you think an omnipotent being would realise that you were just believing because of a wager and be slightly (send to hell).... annoyed?

4. As an athiest the idea of an omnipotent being who supposedly created me, supposedly so I could spend my life believing/worshiping him/her/it and who supposedly will send me to a place of pain/torture (or if you're into the new age hell... boredom) just because I dont believe seems petty. If it's really that hung up on what I choose to believe, why not just write in big bold letters in the sky "Dear peon's. Believe in me or burn. Sincerely, [insert god here]". If you were omnipotent would you care if someone believed in you in life? They'd always die in ~70 years and have eternity to make up lost time anyway.

4 part duex. For that matter, a god who would condem someone to infinite punishment for a limited infraction caused during the course of my limited life doesn't seem worthy of worship to me. I'd like to think if given the final chance to believe in a god such as that or go to hell I'd choose the latter. But prolly not, I dont like pain.

Anyways, thats just my (entirely subjective) summation of the main fallacies pascal's wager. By no means is that all, or are they all 100% infalliable. The work for me though!

-spoon

**nightowl** · 08-09-2004 02:48 PM

I answered no. Honestly, i dont really care what happens after I die. I mean it WOULD be nice for some kind of afterlife, but im not going to die with those expectations.

I completely agree with Lucius. What if you did so much good in the world, what if you helped so many people, what if you eased the sufferings of thousands...yet you dont believe in god. And now your god is going to send you to hell because you didn't "believe" in him, even though he did all that good? There's something obviously wrong with that.

A god should love ALL his children, ALL his creations, not condemning them by sending them to the fiery bowels of hell. I find worshipping a god like that quite hard. Especially since there's almost no proof of his existence, and i'll need more than the bible as proof. i AM an open-minded person and i would probably love "god" , but im not going to love anyone who would send you to hell because you never believed in him(and did nothing wrong).

uhh.i think thats it for now...i guess

...also please dont take what i said personally. i repeat. this is not a personal attack

**imported_Berserk_Exodus** · 08-09-2004 04:28 PM

I think that if the afterlife did exist, hell is bullshit and just a construct of human society or our own minds.

Anyways, NO.

**Death-Wuad** · 08-09-2004 05:03 PM

I give spoon the most intelligent post of the day award. If god would send somebody to hell for not believing in him, then he's a coward.

**Damascus** · 08-09-2004 06:00 PM

The point is.... what do you have to lose in life? NOTHING! But in eternity? you have absolutely everyting to lose. So why not believe?[/b]

i think it was terry pratchett that wrote this..

terrence was a calculating man that once said "well if you belive in god,and he doesnt exist then youve lost nothing when you die,but if you belive in god anyway and he does exist then you save yourself going to hell."when Terrence died was brought before the gods. "so,you wanna be a smartass eh?"

they were not too happy,and were all holding various sized boards.
with nails in them.

i think that illustrates spoons comments

well my personal belief is that faith is pretty wierd. we're supposed to belive in god based on the word of everywone else. what if you were brought up in india,you would be indoctrinated to the belief of indian gods.

would god punish you then?

if god would punish you for being born into the 'wrong' country (in the sense that being born in india/asia etc would mean you worshipping a different god) then thats pretty stupid.

and what if christians were worshipping the 'wrong' god? would the buddhas,vishnu or whatever other god punish us then?for being brought up christian?

so beliving in a god in that way would mean that you could be beliving in the 'wrong' god anyway.
my money would be on staying neutral to gods,beliving that there is A god, and living out a good life.

**limited755** · 08-09-2004 06:09 PM

Even assuming you could entirely convince yourself to believe you'd still have that nagging detail of suppressed nonbelief in your subconcious.[/b]

Are you talking from personal experience? If one is entirely convinced in something then there is no suppressed nonbelief in the subconscious.

If you were omnipotent would you care if someone believed in you in life?[/b]

But this is exactly the point. God does not care if you believe in him but if you do and if you serve him with all your heart then he will reveal himself to you. God is omnipotent, he does not need to love or hate anyone, but if you love him he will reveal himself to you. If you want the force and the will to forget God, he will give you that force and that will.

I ask again: if there is nothing after death, only oblivion what is the point of living a life?

**Maystar** · 08-09-2004 06:45 PM

at the end of this life, there is only one person that we will need to answer to and that is ourselves. why should there be anyone else concerned by our actions,motives, wrong doings, good doings.... are we really that important? also, personal growth in this world is directly relate to only yourself.

as for hell.... well, i have to agree with beserk. hell is only what each individual makes it - their 'unhappy' place. someone's idea of heaven, could also be another man's vision of hell. eg - disney land....!!(humourous example there). heaven and hell in terms of religion, scare mongering tactics to ensure people don't deviate from the religious beliefs laid down.... a god would not punish people for there mistakes....

i do not believe in 'god' personally, but in a higher force, the everlasting energy that creates what we are today.... i believe in karma - everything needs to balance... and am aware that people have the lesons taught to them which are needed and not so neccersarily deserved.

**gameover** · 08-09-2004 09:16 PM

The point is.... what do you have to lose in life? NOTHING! But in eternity? you have absolutely everyting to lose. So why not believe?[/b]

What? How can you believe in something because of fear?! Thats how christianity keeps its numbers in a lot of churches. EVeryoes scared to not believe. Im gonna believe whatever makes the msot sense to me.

But if this is so, then what is the purpose of life? Why live a life if when we die there is nothing?[/b]

WHy does life have to be all about after life? Why did I play baseball when I was a kid? It means nothing to me now. I live today for todays sake. And at the time, it was fun. The only "purpose" of life is going to be your own.

**bradybaker** · 08-09-2004 10:10 PM

Pascal's wager is not an argument for the existence of God, it is simply an argument for believing. It's a method of extorting the gullible through fear. This is nicely summed up in the "Atheism article" thread.

Besides, isn't gambling a sin or something?

**Scwigglie** · 08-09-2004 10:24 PM

I'd like to comment as well on that bit about God punishing you for not believing in him.. I, personally, see God as a much much higher being, way above petty anger/revenge, that sort of thing. I personally don't think he cares about most of the "sins" we commit. As for the Hell idea, I don't think it makes sense.. one little mistake in your mortal life, and for that an eternity of suffering?

Gameover, I agree with ya completely.

If you're certain that there's nothing after life, then ending it for that reason seems impractical. It's throwing away an amazing opportunity to live. If this life is the only thing you'll ever experience, then make it good! Make it worthwhile.

**bradybaker** · 08-09-2004 11:22 PM

If you're certain that there's nothing after life, then ending it for that reason seems impractical. It's throwing away an amazing opportunity to live. If this life is the only thing you'll ever experience, then make it good! Make it worthwhile.[/b]

For once we agree on something Scwigglie and gameover! Break out the champagne!

**Scwigglie** · 08-09-2004 11:35 PM

Cheers!

**nightowl** · 08-10-2004 12:50 AM

If you're certain that there's nothing after life, then ending it for that reason seems impractical. It's throwing away an amazing opportunity to live. If this life is the only thing you'll ever experience, then make it good! Make it worthwhile.[/b]

Here! Here!

that's my sqwiggy!

**Scwigglie** · 08-10-2004 12:53 AM

Ooooh, new smileys!

I feel so loved.

**limited755** · 08-10-2004 08:45 AM

What is "experience"? Everything we experience in that very instant it becomes past, just a memory. Our experiences in the end are just memories. And if there is nothing after death who will benefit from those memories? They will be gone, there will be no one to savour them.

So what is the point of gathering all the experiences if only oblivion awaits them?

**spoon** · 08-10-2004 09:08 AM

spoon: Even assuming you could entirely convince yourself to believe you'd still have that nagging detail of suppressed nonbelief in your subconcious.

limited755: Are you talking from personal experience? If one is entirely convinced in something then there is no suppressed nonbelief in the subconscious.
[/b]

Well, as a lifelong non-believer I'd have to say nay to the personal application of pascal's wager. But. Suppressed events/emotions/belief's make up the entirety of your ego. \"You are the sum of your existance\" Someone smart said that. Without the events of your entire existance up to now you would not be the person you are this second. You aren't conciously aware of the entirety of your existance, yet it is impacting on you.

I'd say that the basis as something important as belief(in a deity) being subconciously based on something as dodgy as pascal's wager doesnt lead to a very sound structure above it. Even though conciously you dont know it the entire belief is springing from that one descision. You wouldn't build a house on something you weren't sure was solid ground would you? (gah! bad analogy!

)

spoon: If you were omnipotent would you care if someone believed in you in life?

limted755: But this is exactly the point. God does not care if you believe in him but if you do and if you serve him with all your heart then he will reveal himself to you. God is omnipotent, he does not need to love or hate anyone, but if you love him he will reveal himself to you. If you want the force and the will to forget God, he will give you that force and that will.
[/b]

Sorry but that's slightly annoying. \"God will reveal himself if you believe?\" Of course he will. If I wanted to see the divine in something, and believed it was possible, than I would. Ancient peoples though of thunder as the gods warring. And because they believed it to be so (+ dodgy scientific process), it was as far as they were concerned.

Also, if god doesn't care if I believe or not, why will I be condemmed to hell if i don't? Thats the whole point of the wager.

limited755: I ask again: if there is nothing after death, only oblivion what is the point of living a life?[/b]

The point of living is to live. Only with religion is life cheapened to mean nothing. With religion (that believes in heaven and hell) suddenly life isn't about living. Its about conforming to a set of moral/ethical/behavioural codes so you can live forever happy and avoid eternal damnation. Without religion I do everything I do now for life only. With religion (WARNING!!!: blanket statement!!

) everything that is done is for eternity first, life second.

**limited755** · 08-10-2004 09:17 AM

Originally posted by spoon
Also, if god doesn't care if I believe or not, why will I be condemmed to hell if i don't? *Thats the whole point of the wager.

If you don't believe in God your cycle of suffering (rebirth, illnesses, aging, death) will begin again when your material body dies as you get reincarnated into another material body.

(Personally I believe this is the concept of "Hell" in Christianity.)

**limited755** · 08-10-2004 09:19 AM

The human form is given to us so that we can think about God and transcend the cycle of death-rebirth.

**spoon** · 08-10-2004 09:54 AM

Originally posted by limited755

If you don't believe in God your cycle of suffering (rebirth, illnesses, aging, death) will begin again when your material body dies as you get reincarnated into another material body.

(Personally I believe this is the concept of \"Hell\" in Christianity.)

So wouldn't that make the material plane (where we are now) hell? Thats kinda a downer. By the way, re-incarnation is a big nono in xianity - you're here once, and you better do it right, cause if you screw it up.. hell. Hell's either a plane where lucifer reigns, fire, brimstone and what not. Dante style. Or the \"new age\" hell of this generations pope - A place where you are not one with god (note: that CANT be this plane, as according to religions you CAN be one with god here).

The human form is given to us so that we can think about God and transcend the cycle of death-rebirth.[/b]

Humour me for a second. Hypothetical follows:
[hypothetical]
You are a god. You have the power to create a universe, populate it with people and things, and can create whatever you want. Do you create a existance for everybody that is redudant? If life is merely a cycle with the key (beliveing in god) unlocking eternal life without suffering or pain or whatever, why wouldn't you (being the creator and all) skip all the pointless death/rebirth shit, and skip to the main event.
[/hypothetical]

A god that's created this universe as merely a pen people mill around in, in life and death and pleasure and pain, a pen that can only be transcended by believing in him, the creator is either: Really really really really vain (believe in me or live a futile eternity!) or lacking in sound engineering principles. Cut out the bullshit, give us eternal life off the bat!

**limited755** · 08-10-2004 10:21 AM

So wouldn't that make the material plane (where we are now) hell?[/b]

That's what I said I believe. Where we are now is a place of suffering (rebirth, illnesses, aging, death) and attending to the (gross) needs of our gross material body (toilette, eating, washing).

[hypothetical]
...
You are a god.
...
[/hypothetical] [/b]

I cannot answer that, I'm not God. God in inconceivable so it is futile to be asking ourselves about his "motives".