Objectivity / Subjectivity

[Sente]

My sister, her coworker and me got into this idea: What if anything is truly objective? Everything that we have experience of is (by default) passed through our own perceptions. Those perceptions cause anything and everything to be biased. This is most obviously true for abstract ideas, such as friendship, fear, love, or even time. You could just say the word 'love' to 2 different people and even though the definition will be the same for both, that definition is filled by thier own experiences and perceptions. It is those experiences that they will recall when defining love for themselves. And as such, is completely subjective to that person. This can even be applied to very concrete ideas such as basic perceptions themselves. An easy one is hearing. The multitude of languages offers a prime example. Sit with 2 other people, you an english speaker and the other two speak a separate language from english but they both know it (I.E. they both know spanish). When one of them speaks, both you and the other spanish speaker are receiveing in thier ears the exact same sounds waves, the same pitch, tone and timber fluctuations and differences in the air pressure. Yet, the other spanish speaker receives these and attaches other meanings to those sounds, be it to describe a feeling, a thought or discussing a sitcom from last night. While you, not knowing that language, hears sounds with no attached meaning. So this seems like sound itself, very deeply lodged in concrete physical principles, can be perceived differently be separate people and is thus subjective. This can also be true for color and therefor light in general. Take as an example Color-Blindness. Two people can be looking at a red and purple painting. Both people are receiving into thier eyes the same wavelengths of light that defines those colors. Yet, the color blind one, when those wavelengths enter into thier perception get muddled and differentiation is difficult. So for the same light, completely grounded in concrete physical principles can be received very differently from one person to the next. Thus it too is subjective. What then is Objective? The only thing I could come up with is that there are those abstract ideas of friendship, fear, love etc. That there is something that we have attached a definition to and call it sound. That there is this stuff called light that guides so much of our actions. In short, the only objectivity to be found is that there is existence. Each existence is completely subjective, but existence itself is Objective. Post your thoughts and also I would be very interested to see if anyone can show me that existence itself is subjective.

[Mr_Fire]

Wow. That's alot of stuff to read man. I got about half way through and had no freakkin' idea what you're talking about. I'm kinda stupid. lol. It's a nice long educational post or something like that though. -later

[Rav1]

Nothing is as it seems to be. For instance, most of quadrupted are daltonists such as a horse or a dog. Looking at a grass they see only black or white colours, whereas we people see green. And who is right? Probably non of us. Maybe an another creature would perceive it yet another way. Yet that doesn't change anything, the grass is still the grass. No matter one perceives it. Well, it is the same when people talk about gods. They claim to believe in one god or another, they perceive their heaven different ways, but once again it changes nothing. The universe is indifferent to our perceivings and goes its own ways. It laughs at us and says "You can interpret me as you like, I don't mind, but don't be angry or disappointed that I don't come up to your expectations."

[Mr_Fire]

Ohh. I understand now what he was talking about. Thanks Rav1.

[Rav1]

Ohh. I understand now what he was talking about. Thanks Rav1. [/b] You're welcome. Now is time to make the second glass of coffee, lol.

[Mr_Fire]

lol, mmm coffee. Heh. I like coffee. Anyways..I'm soo bored, you don't even know. -Sighs-... Random Question: You understand my signitature? Just wondering...

[Rav1]

lol, mmm coffee. Heh. I like coffee. Anyways..I'm soo bored, you don't even know. -Sighs-... Random Question: You understand my signitature? Just wondering... [/b] Not exactly. You are asked to put some light on the matter...

[Roller]

Yeah I agree with you there - reality is objective. A pretty concrete argument against subjectivity is this: If the following statement is true: "reality is subjective," then: each person has their own reality; there is no single reality; there is no single truth, therefore the statement "reality is subjective" cannot be considered true, as there is no truth. I think there might be a few replies to this counter-argument, but it seems to be pretty decisive in arguing that reality must be subjective. Of course, there'd always be some type of argument based on quantum mechanics I'm sure, with the whole observing the quark or whatever it is (not my strong point).

[Rav1]

Yeah I agree with you there - reality is objective. A pretty concrete argument against subjectivity is this: If the following statement is true: "reality is subjective," then: each person has their own reality; there is no single reality; there is no single truth, therefore the statement "reality is subjective" cannot be considered true, as there is no truth. I think there might be a few replies to this counter-argument, but it seems to be pretty decisive in arguing that reality must be subjective. Of course, there'd always be some type of argument based on quantum mechanics I'm sure, with the whole observing the quark or whatever it is (not my strong point). [/b] I would insist on that the reality (facts) is unchangable in itself, but seen from the different angles, from different persons is surely to be subjective. Subjective to those who observe.

[Mr_Fire]

You don't get my sig? Hmm...Think about it. Basically, I guess it means uhm...Like: If somebody is doing something that you -know- how to do, don't jump on their backs and tell them how. Just watch them, and let them figure it out. I guess that's what it means...Maybe?

[Rav1]

You don't get my sig? Hmm...Think about it. Basically, I guess it means uhm...Like: If somebody is doing something that you -know- how to do, don't jump on their backs and tell them how. Just watch them, and let them figure it out. I guess that's what it means...Maybe? [/b] So that is what I do. I don't force myself upon someone, if they don't ask me for help. Why should I? To make someone happy and then, in some distant future, be even rebuked for what I've done? No way. As in Germany say: Denn Undank ist der Welt Lohn...

[Mr_Fire]

No no, I wasn't saying that you were doing that. I was just wondering if people understood er not. lol. Hrm.

[Rav1]

No no, I wasn't saying that you were doing that. I was just wondering if people understood er not. lol. Hrm. [/b] I know what you meant. But I do it anyway.

[gregash]

I agree with Rav1. The existing universe is objective, our abilities to perceive it and much of our entire human experience is subjective. Like the light and sound wave issue; if two people look at a red wagon, the shade of red that each person sees matters nothing to the reality of the situation, they are both still looking at the same red wagon. If two people hear a sound, they both hear the same noise even though they each most likely attach different meanings to it. The reasons for this are many. All of our previous experiences, even down to our mental habits, shape our very perceptions without most of us even realizing it. For instance, take the red wagon situation again. Say the first person is an engineer and the second person an artist. The engineer might notice the rusted paint and handle first while the artist might notice the style of the writing or the overall aesthetic quality of the scene first. Who knows, one of them might have had the same wagon when he was a child and is barely aware of the wagon because he's conjuring up memories of his childhood. That's my two cents, anyway.

[Rav1]

- regarding to gregash's post - That's the way it is. You don't even have to compare the two persons observing. Take, for example, a simple bike : As a kid you got a bike and you considered it quite a sophisticated vehicle endowed even with magic, then when you grew older - as a teen, you saw the same bike as a means of transport to your school, now being an adult you see the same bike as an useless gadget... But the bike hasn't changed itself during all this period. So once again, nothing is as it seems to be.

[Sente]

Yes, it seems like we are all in agreement. THough everyone else was able to say it in way more concise terms than my original post I like the grass analogy between people and cows. Maybe bacause it got across exactly what I was trying to say, maybe because I just like cows.

[Ne-yo]

Polarift do you know Theresa?

[Sente]

Nope. No idea. Honestly, I have just gotten back into dream views after about an 8 month absence so I don't really know all that has been going on here. Even these new forums have caught me off guard... when did they do the changeup? And should I know theresa?

[Ne-yo]

Sorry dude! I haven't been here very long this place looked like this when I arrived here. I heard it was different but I couldn't tell you when it was changed I'm sure someone will be in shortly to answer that question. And in regards to Theresa I just figured it was quite funny that you guys share a similar interest in Calvin and Hobbs.

[Neruo]

Very intresting topic. I personally see things in a way that there is Nothing objective. At least nothing we can concept. Since conception is subjective. We do not really see the things our eyes see. All we concept of 'true reality' is just what our minds make out of the bombardement of neurons that get their pulses from light-sensative nervecells. Basicly, you can never truely know everything is real. There allways is the 'matrix-option'.

[Sente]

Even if all of this is a matrix option thing, does that deny what all of this is? what I mean to say is that even inside of a matrix, we are all perceiving something. Even though we all perceive it differently, there is still something there. If it is a matrix option thing, then reality as we know it is entirely based within the matrix. The matrix IS our reality. Wether it is true or not doesn't matter, as long as something is there, then something must exist, therefor existence remains objective.