free will??

[Boof]

I dont know if this has been up before, but here it goes: I've been thinking about the "free will" for a while and what ive come up to is that it doesnt exist. Imagine if someone had the exactly same genes as yourself and was raised exactly like you and have experienced the same as you wouldnt he make the exactly the same choise as you would in every situation? The free will is just an illusion made by chemicals and stuff in your brain. Everything is predetermed. i hope i made sense. And what do you think about it?

[bradybaker]

I couldn't agree more, but I would like to add to your example. Originally posted by In a previous thread@ I Take any specific set of circumstances you wish in which a decision must be made. For the sake of this argument I'll use the example of having to choose an apple or an piece of chocolate for a snack. The instant that that decision must be made there are an infinite number of factors that influence your decision. For example (this is extremely simplified), you might have a craving for the sweet, rich chocolate and you might have recently had a bad experience with a bruised apple. These are examples of factors that go into the decision, conciously or not. In this set of circumstances you would choose the chocolate. Now, if those exact circumstances (cravings, thoughts, air temp, level of mental awareness, everything) were recreated 1000 times, every single one of those times you would choose the chocolate. Therefore, under any one set of circumstances, there is only one possible choice that can be made. At that moment in time, it is physical impossible for you to choose the apple, it becomes a non-option. This model of determinism can be applied to any decision that you ever have or will make.

[gameover]

I dont see why free will, and determinism are seperate. I think they are both true. Everything is governed by laws and is "set in stone" and I make decisions. I know i make decisions becuase, well, I make them. Just because I will ultimately make only the one decision doesnt mean I dont make it. Free will and determinism...two ideas with no contradiction.

[CT]

Originally posted by gameover I dont see why free will, and determinism are seperate. I think they are both true. Everything is governed by laws and is \"set in ston\" and I make decisions. I know i make decisions becuase, well, I make them. Just because I will ultimately make only the one decision doesnt mean I dont make it. Free will and determinism...two ideas with no contradiction.

[bradybaker]

I think that the Oracle says it best: You didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it.[/b]

[Stevehattan]

Since we don't know the future, we might as well have free will. But, like dj0s said, if an identical copy of one of us was put in an identical environment or situation as us, it would behave exactly the same as we would and make the same decisions. Of course, a different person in the same situation would act differently, and the same person in a different situation would also act differently. But I guess the point is that if this universe were suddenly cloned and the clone was placed far away so that they would have no impact on eachother, if you came back in a hundred years to check up on them, both universes would still be like mirror images of eachother.

[Estok]

I also believe in determinism since I was very small (say 7 years old). In my opinion freewill and determinism are separate, because, if you are given two choices and the choice that you would make is determined, the only free part about the decision would be your illustion. But that contracdicts with the definition of freewill which requires a chance for the alternate to be selected. Determinism denies that chance, thus the two concepts are mutually exclusive. However, I also believe that determinism is kind of dangerous to believe it. Because it suggests that you are not responsible for anything that you do. And that would lead to major social problems. I think freewill and determinism are both equally impossible to prove. And believing in freewill gives a more meaningful outcome.

[evangel]

http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....redestined+free http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....ht=free+destiny http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....ht=free+destiny

[Shadows]

i dont believe in free will. i agree with u guys

[death dreamer]

yeah i agree with you guys to. if the government doesn't determine things for us (+18 years old) then our parents do (-18 years old)

[Estok]

Evangel, I followed your links and read the three immediate posts. From those posts, I see that the definitions of Fate and Determinism are not the same. The definition of Fate states that the outcome is fixed no matter what choices are involved. The definition of Determinism states that the choice is fixed given the same circumstance. Fate does not imply determinism.

[Alric]

All that means is that your choice isn't random. Taking someone exactly like you doesn't prove anything, either way.

[muse.v]

the universe is infinite and we'll make all possible choices reguardless, which means someone was being "random"... so therefore... we have complete free will? personally i agree with gameover, Alric and Estok's second reply... so thats my 2 cents.

[evangel]

Originally posted by Estok Evangel, I followed your links and read the three immediate posts. From those posts, I see that the definitions of Fate and Determinism are not the same. I was just posting some related threads so that those interested could follow them and see what has already been said on this forum. Dats all. I believe the topic has been mentioned many other times within SEVERAL threads in this forum. Good point, though... I believe that all things are predetermined by God, but I'm not fatalistic (I don't try to use this understanding to excuse my own or others' behaviors or choices). I think it really depends on what one means by "free" will also. In one sense we are able to make our own decisions (free), but on the other hand, we can never be aware of all the possible choices that are available, or the outcomes/consequences of those choices, so we are restricted as well. We are also restricted by things such as physical and mental ability among many other things, so in that sense, we are far from "free."

[Finde]

I don't believe that everything is predetermined... don't know why

[Joseph_Stalin]

Originally posted by death dreamer yeah i agree with you guys to. if the government doesn't determine things for us (+18 years old) then our parents do (-18 years old) Not if you grow up without parents on the street, making your way through bars with friendly drunkards who had their children taking away from them by upset wives, and who look to you as a son. They teach you how to play billiards, drink ol' Brigsby under the table by the age of 14, and you're a pro-hussler by 18. A quaint life without any trouble.

[Boof]

I do agree on that we have a free will, but i think its just an illusion. If the choise is already made do you really have a choise? We are but robots, programmed in a certain way. or something like that.

[Estok]

About Freewill: I don't think the definition of freewill involves being aware of all the decisions. It involves given two or more choices in the same circumstances, two or more choices are possible to be chosen by a person. So I am going with the first definition, being able to make own decisions. About everything being predetermined: Determinism does not imply everything being predetermined. Determinism states that there is a same outcome, but not that the outcome is predictable. It has to do with the heisenberg uncertainty principle.

[evangel]

Different people have different ideas (definitions) of free will. That was my basic point on that. Different people also have different definitions (ideas) of determinism (textbook definitions and quantum mechanics/physics aside...). When I mentioned that everything is "pre-determined" I'm basically just saying that everything that was, is, and will be has been determined, and therefore that everything is certain (from God's perspective). Chance and probability are ways that we see reality, but in truth, they do not exist. Being able to choose from two or more choices does not make our will "free"... In fact I think it is merely evidence that our will is in fact restricted (by several factors that are outside of our control).

[Kaniaz]

I'm not sure what to believe on this one. But if it was true that we had not free will, and it was based on simply external variables... Let's go back to the very first human decision. For simplifications, let's say there's just a human that's appeared and it's first decision is wether or not to eat an apple. (very simple, but that's just for arguement) Here are the (very few, when indeed there are millions) variables affecting this decision. Temperature Light (1 being darkest, 10 being lightest humanly possible) OK, now let's see what happens with these two variables. Temperature: 10.38403248058490584 Centigrade. Light: 3.4945893457203840359843508395. Human eats apple Outcome, and what's it like in 2004 as a result: Exactly as it is now And now one more scenario Temperature: 10.38403248058490583 Centigrade. Light: 3.4945893457203840359843508395. Human dosen't eat apple Outcome, and what's it like in 2004 as a result: We're extinct. Now add a kagillion other variables, seemingly infinite decimal numbers to the variables, and you have one hell of a big caculation if you want to caculate what exactly will happen. I hope you get what I mean.

[Estok]

Kaniaz: I think I know what you mean, that has to do with the impossibility to get the required precision and to compute in a chaos model. In addition to that the heisenburg uncertainly principle involves that your measurement changes the state of what you are measuring. evangel: I understand your definition. I was objecting to the "pre" part of the word. If you just base the argument on determinism, excluding god, determinism does not imply a predictable future. When you say in god's perspective, I assume you mean "if there is an ideal camera that can capture the exact state without changing the state, and an ideal computer that can calculate the next state." But determinism itself does not make those assumptions. Chance and probability are ways that we see reality, but in truth, they do not exist.[/b] We didn't talk about chance and probability. When I say the next state is unpredictable, I didn't say that it happened by chance. Being unpredictable doesn't mean being random. Being able to choose from two or more choices does not make our will \"free\"... In fact I think it is merely evidence that our will is in fact restricted (by several factors that are outside of our control).[/b] This is a definition difference. My definition is derived from the idea of a will (a soul type thing) associated with a human body. And it is free in the sense that the will can choose whatever choices it want without restrictions from the physical world. An analogy is you playing a role-playing game. Your game character exhibits freewill because you, the will, is capable of selecting any choices given within the game, such as jump or not jump. And, given the same circumstance, you, the will, is free to select an alternate choice. Your definition seems to be a stricter one. Using the same analogy, the game character may not exhitbit freewill because you, the will, is unable to express or do fully what you want. We can also see the inverted definitions using the same analogy. For my inverted definition, the AI game characters do not have freewill, because their actions are determinded by some mechanisms, given the same game state, they always perform the same way. For your inverted definition, a game character that cannot jump does not have freewill, because in reality you, the will, can jump. When the definitions are put this way, it seems that the second definition (an interpretation of your definition) is illogical to be applied against determinism.

[peebrain]

Originally posted by gameover I dont see why free will, and determinism are seperate. I think they are both true. Everything is governed by laws and is \"set in stone\" and I make decisions. I know i make decisions becuase, well, I make them. Just because I will ultimately make only the one decision doesnt mean I dont make it. Free will and determinism...two ideas with no contradiction. I agree... and as someone else pointed out, an easier way to look at it is the Oracle's point of view on the Matrix Reloaded. The choice exists, it's just already been made, therefore it's determinstic.

[LucidApple]

There is a great difference between if we have free will or experience our will as free. I say our will is inbetween free and unfree, relativity. Nothing is absolute free or absolute unfree, its always relative so. And yes all is determined.

[evangel]

We didn't talk about chance and probability. When I say the next state is unpredictable, I didn't say that it happened by chance. Being unpredictable doesn't mean being random. [/b] I talked about chance and probability because they are related to this topic ...and I didn't say unpredictability equates with randomness because I do not believe in randomness. If you don't believe that all things are determined, then reality is usually perceived in terms of chance and probability (whether outcomes are \"predictable\" or not). I suppose some may think that life is a combination of the two... I think that because we don't know the future we are forced to see things in terms of \"choices\" and \"chances\" and \"probability\" ...the will can choose whatever choices it want without restrictions from the physical world. An analogy is you playing a role-playing game. Your game character exhibits freewill because you, the will, is capable of selecting any choices given within the game, such as jump or not jump. [/b] You say "without restrictions from the physical world," then you say "within the game" which implies that there are rules/restrictions put upon the game player... What if the will wants to fly, or to make a bridge, or a swing like Indiana Jones, or pole-vault? Some of these choices simply are not possible, no matter how much the will intends, wants, or thinks it can do them - especially if the game player is short, or weak, etc. Yes, I suppose my definition is stricter since the word "free" to me implies complete freedom, not "limited" freedom (which is oxymoronic). I'm not applying "free will" against determinism. I think that in one sense they exist simultaneously (or at least they appear to from a human perspective). We do have a will, there's no question about that. I would argue, though that our wills are under external (or internal) control, though, whether we are consciously aware of it (or want to admit it ) or not.

[Taosaur]

The way I see it, our actions are not predetermined, but strongly conditioned--by everything that has happened in our lives to date, and also by the entire history of our material universe. In many situations, it can seem like our decisions are predetermined because of all the forces coming to bear on us, but looking closely at those forces, I find that most of them originate in me, or in the broader systems that are also "me"--humanity, the earth's ecosystem, the planets, the stars, and the universe as a whole. For instance, having fixed ideas about what "I" is and how "I" behaves can predetermine a good chunk of your actions, and fixed ideas of where you fit into hierarchies at work or among friends can cover much of the rest, without worrying about greater beings planning our lives from the heavens. Every moment that we live inattentively, letting our decisions make themselves, more of these conditioning forces arise, until we forget that we put them all in place ourselves, and it feels like we're just along for the ride. My strategy is to keep my eyes open for these scripts I've written for myself, and let them go if they are not of use. By cultivating attentiveness, I also avoid creating new forces conditioning my actions. Once I've liberated all these self-made constraints, then maybe I'll worry about cosmic forces.