Personal Identity

[Dylan]

----------------------------------------------------- POLL QUESTION: Imagine you're strapped onto one surgery cart, while another person is strapped to another beside you. The doctors tell you that they will send ALL your memories to the other person. They also tell you that once the transfer is complete, they will torture one of the bodies, and give the other one 1 million dollars. It is your choice which body will receive the money... Which will you choose? ----------------------------------------------------- What accounts for personal identity. Let's say I have a photograph of myself as a child. What is it that makes me the same person as that kid in the picture? I believe we are the same person... but WHY are we? We don't look much alike, or act much alike.... yet that child grew up to be me. Well one answer is that it's the same body... it has changed, but it is still the same body. But if personal identity depended on the identity of my body, then when I got up in the morning I would need to inspect my body to tell who I was... I don't need to do that, I know before I open my eyes. Imagine you had a child who was stolen from you when he was 15... you would want to get that very same kid back, even if he had grown up and changed physically. If a person is just about the body then we have no explanation for why we care so much about that one specific person. So, perhaps I am the same as the kid in my picture because we share the same thoughts. I don't remember much though, about what that child went through... I've forgotten quite a bit of it. You could say though, that if there is any psychological connections, that we are the same person. If however there is a complete psychological disconnection, then we are two different people... even if we have the same body. Now this poses a question of the Body-Mind deal... Some people believe that conciousness is merely brainstates, and others believe that it is a Soul, aware of those states. I personally believe in the brain states... but a question out of curiosity for all you folks that believe in souls (this question is seperate from the poll): let's say that there are two different conciousnesses in one body... two souls, they all have the exact same brain states, so they all think and feel the EXACT same things. But perhaps there are Two conciousnesses... are they two different people? or one person? Cheers, Dylan

[Belisarius]

Memory may define a person, but it doesn't make up a person. The body may make up a person, so I would definitely choose the old body. If the memory were passed the consciousness would remain in the origional, people sometimes lose all sense of memory, but do not loose consciousness.

[dream-scape]

Originally posted by Dylan Let's say I have a photograph of myself as a child. What is it that makes me the same person as that kid in the picture? I believe we are the same person... but WHY are we? We don't look much alike, or act much alike.... yet that child grew up to be me. Well one answer is that it's the same body... it has changed, but it is still the same body. But if personal identity depended on the identity of my body, then when I got up in the morning I would need to inspect my body to tell who I was... I don't need to do that, I know before I open my eyes. *Imagine you had a child who was stolen from you when he was 15... you would want to get that very same kid back, even if he had grown up and changed physically. *If a person is just about the body then we have no explanation for why we care so much about that one specific person. So, perhaps I am the same as the kid in my picture because we share the same thoughts. I don't remember much though, about what that child went through... I've forgotten quite a bit of it. You could say though, that if there is any psychological connections, that we are the same person. If however there is a complete psychological disconnection, then we are two different people... even if we have the same body. I believe you touched on the answer when you said, "We don't look much alike, or act much alike.... yet that child grew up to be me." You are not the same, but you are not different either. This is not a paradox. The photograph of you as a child is just that; one single moment of yourself frozen in time. As you mentioned, you are not the same because your body has changed. Even now it does not remain exactly the same for any two consecutive moments. The same can be applied to any element you may find in yourself - your cells, your skin, your hair, your thoughts. And so, I think it is incorrect to say you "share the same thoughts" as the child. Even now your thoughts do not remain exactly the same. Thoughts continuously arise and subside. They manifest and then cease to manifest. And then they may manifest again, but it is not the same thought. Just as with you, it is not the same thought, but it is not different either. This is not a paradox. And you are also not different. Without the child "you", the now "you" could not be as it is. Without your past experiences, the now "you" could not be as it is. Even now this is true. The today "you" could not be as it is without the yesterday "you". The this second "you" could not be as it is without the last second "you". You are a continuation of that child. For no two consecutive moments do you remain exactly the same, but each moment is also a continuation of the previous. You and that child are not the same, but not different either. This is not a paradox. You need not take my word for it. You should not. Your own personal and direct experiences can verify this to be true. This is my belief.

[Stevehattan]

(Let me just pretend that there's no torture involved anywhere, so I don't look too selfish) My old body would get the cash. Just transferring memories wouldn't transfer the consciousness. But, even for a million bucks, I wouldn't have my memories switched with someone else's, because I don't know what I would do. I'd have to explain to all the people that I now felt I knew what happened, and it would be really weird, and my family would miss me (ok maybe not ).

[InfiniteReality]

But perhaps there are Two conciousnesses... are they two different people? or one person? [/b] consiousness is One. there is no seperation.

[Dylan]

I do agree with you dream-scape. That is my belief as well. You need to have had previously existed in some other form to be what you are now - you can't just pop into existence. But you must realize that it doesn't so much have to do with your existence, but with your personal identity. HOW do you know that that child is you? How did you come to believe that answer? What makes two things the same?... there's two different senses in which things can be the same. Qualitative (when two things share many of the same features) and Numerical (over time an object may or may not change some of its features, but it can remain the same object through many changes). The problem of personal identity is a problem about numerical sameness. It could be possible that I'm just doing a poor job of explaining this. Originally posted by dream-scape And so, I think it is incorrect to say you \"share the same thoughts\" as the child. I didn't mean we share the exact same thoughts. I just meant pretty much that I can REMEMBER some things from back then. For example I can remember what happened the day of the photograph, or something like that. Even though thoughts change, they can still remain the same... just as you, you're always changing, but you're still YOU. Try to explain that, just for the sake of it. I understand you, but you keep saying "This is not a paradox" and not explaining further. Ok, if we are always changing, regardless, what is it that makes us the same person. What specifically? I'm just confused because I can't think of a way to describe it. Cheers, Dylan

[Dylan]

And infinite reality... what do you mean "conciousness is one". How do you define a soul then?

[dream-scape]

Originally posted by Dylan Even though thoughts change, they can still remain the same... just as you, you're always changing, but you're still YOU. Try to explain that, just for the sake of it. I understand you, but you keep saying \"This is not a paradox\" and not explaining further. Ok, if we are always changing, regardless, what is it that makes us the same person. What specifically? Well, let me say that the thought that your thoughts "can still remain the same," if meant to point to an enduring thought, is a thought created out of a desire to remain the same and the desire results in a delusion, the delusion that they can remain the same. I believe that nothing remains exactly the same for any two consecutive moments. Thoughts are no exception to this. You are still YOU in the sense that you are continuing to manifest in your present form (as a human). But there is no enduring YOU. No enduring Self. This moment YOU are a continuation of YOU last moment. Your thoughts are a continuation of your thoughts from the last moment, from last year, from that child. The same for your body and any element you may find within yourself. They did not just come from nowhere. From nothing something cannot be born. This is how you are not different. Perhaps I am being a little bit deliberately cryptic here, in order to make a point. Maybe think of this as we think of the water cycle, for instance. You stand in a stream and the water floats past you. Are you standing in the same stream you were just a moment ago? The water is not the same because it continually flows on and the water at that point in the stream never remains exactly the same for any two moments. Is it different? It may be said it is still the same stream - the Red River let us say is the name given to it. It is still the Red River. It is a continuation of the stream it has been since it began manifesting as a stream. Let us go a step beyond. The sun shines brightly upon the stream and in the warmth and rays of the sun, some of the stream is evaporated into the air. It goes up and up and manifests itself now as a cloud. This cloud, is it different from the stream? This cloud contains elements of the stream in it. Without the stream, the cloud would not be. Is it the same? It has transformed and is now manifesting only in a different form. This new manifestation is really just a continuation of the previous manifestation of the stream and the manifestations before that. It will not remain the cloud forever either. Moving across the sky always changing position and shape; back into rain, and back into the stream. But each manifestation is just a continuation. This cloud is not the same as the stream, but it is not different. At the ground of all manifestations of water, we might say is H2O. A stream, a river, a glacier, water vapor, rain, the ocean; at the very ground of all of these, we might say they are all H2O. But we can also see these manifestations are not the same either. And each one does not remain the same itself, insofar as the sense that it is never changing. Not the same but not different. Ever changing, never enduring, continuing out of the past, fearing not the future, knowing no birth or death, transforming and continuing. Again, you may see this to be cryptic, but I hope it helps point toward some insight into the paradox of not the same but not different. I can't tell you, even if I knew the right or exact or true answer. All I can do is point and help you on your way to your own coming to understanding, and hope that my pointing finger is not mistaken for the understanding. Well I think I may have taken the thread somewhere you were not looking to go. Perhaps the discussion on the paradoxical nature of "not the same but not different" and how one might understand it should be continued in a different thread?

[InfiniteReality]

i think a "soul" is just pure consiousness (or shared/group consiousness). as you get older and live, you develop a personality, thought patterns, looks, a story, which is your own, and personal....but none of these are you, or your soul. I dont believe you are your thoughts, i think completely different then 2 years ago, but i am exactly the same soul. my personality is different, my thought are different, my body is different. But "I", the soul, is just consiousness/awareness/energy... you do not HAVE a soul. you ARE *the* soul. we all are of the same soul.

[take five]

On a somewhat related note: Is someone who suffers from severe amnesia and loses all all their memories still the same person? I would answer yes to that question...Which is why I'd have the first body get the money.

[will.i.am]

Id rather have memories then money

[InfiniteReality]

I have reterograde amnesia. I remember almost nothing between the ages of 12-20 and I still me.

[Dylan]

Hmm retrograde amnesia? How/when did that happen? and that's really unfortunate, I'm sorry to hear. But, let's say you lost absolutely all of your memories experiences, everything... would you still be you? I guess when it all boils down, it just depends on whether or not you believe in souls. Take it easy, Dylan