Evolution applies to everything right?

[ThomasELEN]

I was thinking about something with regards to evolution. Let's say that humans did evolve just as Darwinists believe. For the point of this conversation, we'll go ahead and say it is true that single celled bacteria evolved over millions of years and eventually we got to modern humans as we know it. Ok, since we're assuming that evolution is true for this conversation, then we can say that humans managed to go through all the hoops of evolution and develop a knowledge of self. So, from bacteria, we evolved and at one time humans were animals. From the animals, we managed to become the humans that we know now. Throughout the human evolution time-table, it wasn't until we developed a self-knowledge that we actually became the humans that we know. Animals are animals b/c they have no concept of themself. So, now to what I was pondering. If humans did evolve, as stated earlier, then is it possible that another species in this world will eventually evolve and have a knowledge of self? Will another non-human species somehow be able to evolve from animals into an intelligent, self-thinking one? What would become of this world if that happened? Right now, humans rule the world b/c every other species are animals. We're the only ones who can create all that we have in this world b/c we know of ourself. If another species evolved so much that they knew of themself and their feelings(just as humans did), then will humans come into conflict with this newly evolved species with a self-knowledge? Will there be a war among intelligent beings? Please comment on the possiblity that another species will evolve into developing a knowledge of self.

[Stalker]

Originally posted by ThomasELEN+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ThomasELEN)</div> So, now to what I was pondering. If humans did evolve, as stated earlier, then is it possible that another species in this world will eventually evolve and have a knowledge of self? Will another non-human species somehow be able to evolve from animals into an intelligent, self-thinking one? [/b] Yes. <!--QuoteBegin-ThomasELEN What would become of this world if that happened? We humans would probably kill the species before anything happened to us.

[Kaniaz]

stalker's nailed it

[Flowstill]

Actually, we humans would probably be extinct before a new species evolved into a self-recognized species. If, anything the process would be so slow while we are alive, that we would be raising these creatures and teaching it how to speak. Foir instance, the evolution of a certain chimp, may begin to be able to form sounds much like humans... it would still have a much lower intelligence, and we would probably have them as pets, and want to have the cute talking animal. After time however, they're intelligecne would grow and if we are still alive, we would probably be so used to them being around and talking, we would be excited to see them be able to learn more. Although, perhaps we would use them for our slaves and make them do shitty jobs. Than, they may revolt and we would kill them,

[Kaniaz]

We might keep them as pets, but naturally if they revolted they'd be pwned...

[ThomasELEN]

Hey Stalker, if it's possible that another species can evolve into having a knowledge of self, then how come it hasn't happened yet? If evolution is true, it took humans a long time to develop a self-knowledge...how come nothing else along the way evolved their minds too? Why were humans so special to be the exclusive self-knowledgeable ones? Why no one or nothing else?

[Kaniaz]

I'd say chance. Evolution does not always "make the right decisions". It took us a very long time to get where we are today, all the rest did it wrong, really. [/oversimplified] x_x

[Taosaur]

Indeed. Homo sapiens and our ancestors killed off or squeezed out several hominid species on our way to global domination. On a side note, any dividing line you want to declare between humans and other animals is arbitrary. Other animals on the planet right now are using simple tools in the wild, being taught simple languages in labs, and demonstrating knowledge of themselves.

[Kaniaz]

I need to expand my last post a bit. A blob. Blob has babies. 1 baby blob has a mutation that enables them to have two eyes (pretty drastic mutation, but for this example..) other 3 baby blos don't have the mutation. Over time, the baby blob with eyes basically kills off the other blobs (having sex first) because it lives for longer, and dominates the space, the others have to die. A Blob with eyes has 3 babies. Baby #1 mutation is to have a heart attack right away. Naturally, this wasn't a good mutation at all - may i note like 95% of mutations aren't - and dies. Baby #2 mutation is to have legs - lives and soon overshadows the ones with eyes too. Baby #3 mutation is to be sterile - dies. That goes on, but much much more graudally. You'd get a mutation for say, one cell that can detect light or something, and most of the time a bad mutation would occur and wipe out a ton of things...Sort of like trial and error. Eventually, evolution was gonna get it right, it's inevitable.

[Stalker]

Originally posted by ThomasELEN Hey Stalker, if it's possible that another species can evolve into having a knowledge of self, then how come it hasn't happened yet? How can you be so sure it hasn't?

[ThomasELEN]

Stalker wrote How can you be so sure it hasn't? [/b] Well, you're right...I'm not sure it hasn't. BUT, right now there definitely isn't any other species that have a self knowledge like we do. They might have self knowledge that they are hot or cold, but they can't tell me that they feel sad or angry. So, if another species did evolve with a self-knowledge they're not around this earth. If there had been another self-knowing species at any time in the past, I think they would've left some kind of evidence. All the heiroglyphics and other ancient remnants of past cultures were all human. I think we would've known by now if there had ever been another self-knowing species in history.

[Taosaur]

[quote]Stalker wrote So, if another species did evolve with a self-knowledge they're not around this earth. If there had been another self-knowing species at any time in the past, I think they would've left some kind of evidence. All the heiroglyphics and other ancient remnants of past cultures were all human. I think we would've known by now if there had ever been another self-knowing species in history. As I said before, we've had close contemporaries in the past, but we killed them or out-resourced them. Most of this happened long before we had more than rudimentary "cultures." They weren't building monuments any more than we were, at the time. Our type of intelligence is a hominid adaptation; it's worked out marvelously for us, but it's by no means the best strategy, much less the only good one. Dozens of species on earth are more numerous and more adaptable than we are. In a world where there is already a more advanced tool-using species, intelligence is a negative adaptation, as our extinct cousins would tell you if they weren't, you know, extinct.

[Stalker]

Originally posted by ThomasELEN Stalker wrote How can you be so sure it hasn't? Well, you're right...I'm not sure it hasn't. BUT, right now there definitely isn't any other species that have a self knowledge like we do. They might have self knowledge that they are hot or cold, but they can't tell me that they feel sad or angry. [/b] Many species actually show evidence of having feelings. Primates that hold grudges against a particular individual for example. And let's not forget the dolphins... Also, self-aware doesn't necessarily equal intelligence. PS. Why do you write your quotes that odd? DS.

[ThomasELEN]

Ok Stalker, I'll agree that self-knowledge isn't necessarily intelligence. Taosaur, I also agree that I was wrong to say that animals dont feel sad. But, the difference is that they don't know that they are sad. They don't know that they are angry. If an animal holds a grudge, they simply have memory of a time in the past that they got angry at another. They still don't have a true self-knowledge. They just act on their feelings and don't give a cause & effect thought of their actions before they do it. They just simply act according to how they feel. They have complex emotions, but they can't decipher what it is that they are feeling. If they did, the world wouldn't be dominated by humans and human structures. Animals are still lacking that one self-knowledgeable trait that makes us humans. Animals have feelings, but they don't know that these are feelings that they're experiencing. I'm not saying that they can't feel, I'm saying tha they don't know for themselves that they are feeling. Hey Taosaur, what is some evidence of these past contemporaries that you speak of? You're not talking about neanderthals or anything like that right? Because any type of self-knowing primate from the past is most likely included in the evolution of man. Could you give me an example of some non-primate self knowing animals from the past? Where's the evidence? P.S. I never really figured out how to quote stuff correctly. I get so caught up in trying to word out my thoughts that I dont even think about the small stuff. If you could tell me Stalker, that would help me out.

[ThomasELEN]

I want to correct myself real quick. Dolphins know that they are feeling pleasure b/c they have sex for pleasure. Even though this particular example is an exception, I still dont think any animals have a true self knowledge. No animal out there has ever created a body enahancing device to get an edge on a predator like humans have. A monkey may use a stick as a tool to fish for ants, but they certainly have never created a weapon. My conclusion....only humans possess a true knowledge of self. This is the fundamental thing that makes us human.

[Kaniaz]

Quotes work like this: &#91;quote&#93;somestuff&#91;/quote&#93; equals Originally posted by Stalker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stalker)</div> I love pie[/b] And one more: &#91;quote=&#34;My dog&#34;&#93;Woof.&#91;/quote&#93; equals <!--QuoteBegin-My dog Woof.

[Flowstill]

I think Thomas, that animals can feel pleasure, and pain... Sadness? happiness? Some yes, any pack or social creatures usually will have these emotions to some degree ie if a wolf loses it's pack, get's lost. I think the difference between humans and animals, is that humans have a way of creating whole lives and identities around things like their jobs, loved ones, friends. They identify with being a certain way, creating complex illusionary selves that govern their emotions. Animals however, will just be what they are. They're emotions are governed only by situations brought upon them in that moment of, being lost, being injured etc. Humans can and usually do create very strong fake realities, which through this narrow-minded dispositon, will in turn find ways to bring more and more of the same back on to themselves. I think the phrase I'm looking for is, irrational suffering.

[bradybaker]

Humans are animals. We are 98% genetically indentical to chimpanzees and something like 35% genetically identical to daisies. Why do you people assume that we are so special? We are all made of the exact same types of matter as trees, bottles of Coke and dirt. Mostly carbon with a bunch of hydrogen, oxygen and some other stuff thrown in for good measure. "You are not special, you are not a beautiful or unique snowflake, you are the same decaying organic matter as everything else." -Tyler Durden

[Aphius]

Originally posted by ThomasELEN Even though this particular example is an exception, I still dont think any animals have a true self knowledge. No animal out there has ever created a body enahancing device to get an edge on a predator like humans have. A monkey may use a stick as a tool to fish for ants, but they certainly have never created a weapon. My conclusion....only humans possess a true knowledge of self. This is the fundamental thing that makes us human. Are you serious? Thats not self awareness, its like stalker said, Self awareness does not necissarily equal intelligence. A body enhancing device is an invention of intelligence, not of awareness. You cannot simply conclude that humans are the only ones to possess a true knowledge of self because they can invent things and because they know they are aware.

[ThomasELEN]

Ok. I can admit that I was wrong to try to state out some of the differences between our minds and the minds of animals. But all of you have to at least agree that there is something different between us and animals. None of the animals are having conversations trying to analyze the behavior of humans. Which animal do you know is typing their friends an email? Which animal do you know that is sending out space crafts to another planet? None of you can tell me that there isn't any difference between the degree to which we're self aware and the degree to which the animals are self aware. I know that we're genetically 90 something percent alike with animals and other things, but we're still not the same. I'm sure most of you would agree that your own intelligence is greater than that of any given animal. Why would this conversation even be happening if that wasn't the case? So, for those who think that animals are exactly as self aware as humans, please give me some examples to why you feel that way. (Aphius, I think you're in this category...please give me your opinion.) For those who feel that animals are very self aware, but not as quite as self aware as humans, please tell me what you feel is the small difference in our minds that makes us humans more self aware. (Bradybaker, even if you're not in this category, you always got something interesting to say and I definitely want to hear your opinion. )

[bradybaker]

Self awareness and intelligence are completely separate concepts. Besides, what allows us to send emails to our friends and rockets to the moon is not pure intelligence, but collective intelligence and collective memory. They say that the gap in level of intelligence between the average person and someone like Einstein is greater than the gap in level of intelligence between the average human and a chimpanzee or dolphin. Since none of us have ever actually experienced what it is to be a fish or a dog or a kangaroo, we aren't really in a very good position to conclude what "level of self-awareness" they have are we?

[ThomasELEN]

bradybaker, so what is the one exact thing that makes our minds different from an animals?

[bradybaker]

We have more neuronal connections at our disposal (aka. Our brains are bigger and more complex), that equates to more processing power. There is actually a very reliable type of "natural formula" that recent studies show can be indicative of intelligence. Basically it is just a brain weight:body weight ratio. The higher the weight of the brain relative to the weight of the body, the more intelligent the animal. Take an intro psychology course, this isn't rocket science.

[ThomasELEN]

Cool. Thanks for the info. I'm always stuck doing electrical engineering since that is what im going to school for. Rocket science got nothing on that.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Besides, most animals (and possibly even humans) work on a stimulus/response basis. There is no love, no anger, no sadness really--the animals have a less advanced mental processing as us, so this is not intepreted as strongly as us. Meaning that we are actually taking things to a higher level, because we are sentient. Therefore, Dog "loves" owners because they feed, shelter, bathe, etc., him. The dog gets used to this, and is more trusting with his owners because they provide him with what he needs, and he does not want this to be removed. If he is removed, he will be distrupted, and may still remember the owners if this is a permanent leave. Children "love" parents because of these same necessities, and get very used to this. Take into account our complex thinking patterns, degree of learning, and even language as a factor. We react strongly to be removed from our parents, and if this is a permanent solution, it will cause great psychological damange to the child. Why? Our memories play an important factor, and how we perceive things. Are we simply advanced dogs? I can't be too certain, but I don't hate love for one thing. I'm just trying to reason some things out, and hypothesize.