What if we had infinite time

[Dog Biscuits]

What if an animal, say a lion, was allowed infinite time to evolve? Do you think it will evolve into a super race?

[esfx]

This makes no sense.

[Dog Biscuits]

This makes no sense. ok pure hypothetical situation. -We are not in the universe (humans) -the dominant species is another form of life (lions) -Time is infinite but everything else is held constant -I mean infinite time as evolutionary time; lions do not have to worry about being wiped out, meteors, the sun exploding, gamma ray burst - nothing. They are allowed to be forever. SO my question is would they become an advanced species? does this make more sense now? It was a wild idea I had yesterday.

[esfx]

No, they wouldn't, because dynamic evolution requires a change in environment. All that would happen is, the lions would reach an evolutionary equilibrium and stay there for all time.

[DeathCell]

Tell the lions to eat some mushrooms. Whatever creature evolves some thumbs and a clear ability to communicate would evolve mentally and technologically. On the other hand without being able to truly grasp intelligence and communication, they would just be the most powerful killing machine.

[Xei]

The lions would stay as lions. It's a common misconception that evolution is a progression from a less complex (or advanced, as you put it) organism the a more complex one. It's just not true. Most organisms wouldn't benefit at all from becoming more complex; look at bacteria. They've stayed simple for billions of years, and it suits them; they're the most populous organisms on the planet.

[DeathCell]

The lions would stay as lions. It's a common misconception that evolution is a progression from a less complex (or advanced, as you put it) organism the a more complex one. It's just not true. Most organisms wouldn't benefit at all from becoming more complex; look at bacteria. They've stayed simple for billions of years, and it suits them; they're the most populous organisms on the planet. I guess it depends at what you mean by the word complex also. Complex as in more cells, and more functions? As you are talking about. Or complex as in the ability to create things outside of themselves, fire, etc..

[Xei]

Just 'more functioning pieces' I suppose. The number of genes would be a rough measure.

[ChaybaChayba]

According to evolutio apes became human because of certain enviromental conditions. So it is very well possible that a similar thing will happen to another species. Maybe we ourselves will find a way to genetically manipulate these animals someday? Claiming this is impossibe is claiming it is impossible that apes became humans, but they obviously did, or we wouldn't be here would we?

[esfx]

According to evolutio apes became human because of certain enviromental conditions. So it is very well possible that a similar thing will happen to another species. Maybe we ourselves will find a way to genetically manipulate these animals someday? Claiming this is impossibe is claiming it is impossible that apes became humans, but they obviously did, or we wouldn't be here would we? The OP assumed that the environment was constant, hence my answer that nothing would happen. Obviously, in the real world, intelligent species probably arise like clockwork, with the shifting of the sands and the movement of continents. Even if humans were to die out, Earth may still make two or three further attempts at intelligence. In fact, for all we know, we may not be the first. Although the fossil record seems to indicate that we are. Still, it's interesting to note that if we did die out, all traces of our existence would be buried in the mantle of the Earth within a few million years, which is the blink of a geological eye.

[Universal Mind]

if we did die out, all traces of our existence would be buried in the mantle of the Earth within a few million years The mantle? Fossils that are hundreds of millions of years old have been pretty good about staying in the crust so far.

[esfx]

The mantle? Fossils that are hundreds of millions of years old have been pretty good about staying in the crust so far. Crust/mantle. Fossils are, of course, the exception, not the rule. It takes almost miraculous conditions for a fossil to form.

[Serkat]

I imagine that lions would turn into extremely hot half-feline/half-human nymphomaniacs who engineer humans to become their sex slaves. Wait... Their is referencing the humans. Obviously.

[Inside This Fantasy]

I'd have to say I disagree with most of the posts in here. According to the Hardy-Weinberg principle of evolution, there will ALWAYS be evolution unless seven conditions are met. 1. mutation is not occurring 2. natural selection is not occurring 3. the population is infinitely large 4. all members of the population breed 5. all mating is totally random 6. everyone produces the same number of offspring 7. there is no migration in or out of the population If any of these conditions are not met then a given population will not experience evolutionary equilibrium. In the case of this hypothetical situation, mutation is occuring, mating is not totally random (lions have prides and pride leaders get the most sex), all females dont produce the same number of offspring (litter size ranges from 2-6, and each female might not have the same number of litters in a lifetime), and there is migration in or out of the population (male lions from one pride, once mature, often leave and kill the adult male of another pride so that he can have all of the females). Since not even half of the conditions for evolutionary equilibrium are met, then there will definitely be evolution, and over an infinite timeline I don't see how sentience would not evolve.

[Licity]

Sentience would only evolve if sentience became necessary. The conditions the lion evolves to satisfy would have to strongly favor true sentience in order for that to become the norm. Not to mention, a chain of events would have to come into play for sentience to even be a mutation to begin with. Pretty unlikely that a lion would be randomly born sentient, but then again we have infinite time...

[Inside This Fantasy]

I think there are very valid reasons for sentience to evolve. Lions segregate themselves into prides, and a lion is most likely to pass on his genes when he is the leader of a pride. The most succesful lions will therefore have the most offspring. I think sentience is an obvious advantage that a lion could have. But to make it even simpler, if you were to give them infinite resources and infinite time, how could sentience not evolve? Our planet is an example of just simple bacteria given finite resources and finite time, and it still evolved us. The lions themselves wouldn't even exist by the time sentience evolved, but they would give rise to the races that do obtain it.

[Belisarius]

Because evolution depends on an essentially random process(mutation), over infinite time every possible organism would evolve, including a super race, and humans(and an organism genetically identical to you). The probability of this happening over a given timespan might be incredibly low, but given infinite time it would happen. Of course it isn't just catastrophic disasters that might end life on Earth. In about a billion years, there will no longer be enough carbon dioxide in the atmosphere for plants to survive and at about the same time the sun will expand and make the Earth uninhabitable for any carbon-based life.

[Dog Biscuits]

I seriously wish there are other sentient beings in the cosmos cause if what you guys are saying is true then I dont see how we can possibly be the only form of life in the universe. And even though in this universe we dont have infinite time, 13.7 billions years is certainly a very very very long time and that means almost infinite (but not quite) possibilites. But at the present moment I can only dream of walking on the earth with other super races that stand for good and want to make the universe a better place. lol

[The Cusp]

Isn't that where the Thundercats came from? Sorry, just learned to embed youtube vids...

[TunaSammich]

They wouldn't evolve into a super race, but they would become 100% perfectly suited to filling the ecological niche that lions fill... which woulnd't be much of an accomplishment. Edit: very long time and that means almost infinite (but not quite) possibilites. lol Nothing is almost infinite. We can have mathematical philosophy (technically theory) here too right?

[Inside This Fantasy]

They wouldn't evolve into a super race, but they would become 100% perfectly suited to filling the ecological niche that lions fill... which woulnd't be much of an accomplishment. If they were allowed inifinite time, I'm pretty sure they would split off into lots of species fill lots of niches. With infinite time, they would also most definitely evolve into a super race. Look at us, we went from amoebas to everything on earth in just 4 billion years.

[Xei]

No, that's completely different; many species have evolved because there were many niches to fill. They have now been filled. It is a fundamental evolutionary theory that no two species can occupy the same ecological niche. Look at what happened with the dinosaurs; they ruled for millions of years, whilst mammals simply stayed as small rat like creatures, because the dinosaurs had already filled all of the other niches. Only when dinosaurs became extinct and hundreds of new niches became available for mammals did the huge diversity of that class emerge. It's called radiative adaption I think. The lions would not change into anything else because they already occupy the lion niche and other stuff already occupies the other stuff niches.

[Inside This Fantasy]

The lions would not change into anything else because they already occupy the lion niche and other stuff already occupies the other stuff niches. I'm pretty sure if you looked at earth in a couple billion years there wouldn't be lions. Unless you are saying animal life has finished evolving on earth. However, I was looking at the question in a different light. When he said he was giving lions an infinite amount of time to evolve, I imagined putting lions on a planet with infinite resources and infinite time and seeing what would happen since he said he was only giving lions the chance to evolve. Under those conditions I see lions evolving into all of the niches. Although even if earth today was given infinite time, it seems to me that lions would still split off into different species that fill very different niches. You give dinosaurs as your example for niches being fixed and mammals not rising up, but then immediately say that they went extinct and opened up a wide range of niches for mammals to fill. Well, over infinite time I'm sure there would be plenty of extinction events leaving spots to be filled, giving lions plenty of chances to branch off and create new species.

[Xei]

Yes, if you put lions on a completely new planet, they would evolve into all kinds of things. However that's not what the OP was talking about; clearly, because a planet with no filled niches would have nothing for the lions to eat. If you put lions here for a couple of billion years, they would probably not still be lions, but this is only because there will have been hundreds of environmental changes, such as a change in climate, or possible extinction events.

[Inside This Fantasy]

However that's not what the OP was talking about; clearly, because a planet with no filled niches would have nothing for the lions to eat. Well, this is a hypothetical question after all. They can't very well have infinite time either. If you put lions here for a couple of billion years, they would probably not still be lions, but this is only because there will have been hundreds of environmental changes, such as a change in climate, or possible extinction events. I can't really tell if you are agreeing with me or not. I'm confused because you are saying its due to environmental changes and extinction events as if that wasn't exactly what my point was.