Tsunami and god

[spoon]

People say that "god has a plan" or something similar a lot. Whats the recent earthquake/tsunami in Indonesia say about god's plan? Is there a positive spin you can put on it? Maybe god just doesn't like kids? Can the idea of a loving god exist in the face of something of this magnitude? Obviously if there is a creator who controlls everything (ala. xianity) then this recent disaster was controlled. Not being a believer I fail to see any possible justification for so many needless innocent deaths. If these disasters are in is his plan then he's sadistic. -spoon

[Anahata]

"As the fourth seal is opened, John sees a pale horse. "And I looked," he recorded, "and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" " In Matthew 24, Christ spoke of this general condition of famine in the context of wars and rumors of wars. He again used the plural, famines, referring to many reoccurring instances of famine over the centuries, increasing at a time just prior to his return. Historical famines are, by definition, "cyclical famines," meaning that they are caused by unusual weather conditions, plagues, animal or insect infestation or a similar interruption of normal cycles" It is pretty, sadastic, as you called it... but you have heard of the four horses of the apocalypse right?

[Rev. Pastora]

Gods plan for all those people was that they would eventually die one way or another. From a human viewpoint, this was hardly delightful, but it was nature, and nature is full of death.

[dreamscape]

God.....ha. Anyway if there was a god i can't see why many christians would beleive that he has a divine plan. He has just killed 100,000+ people. How could this be a plan. Well it could be his way of cleaing inventory.

[Alric]

If you added up everyone who normally dies in a day, 100k won't seem like so much. The thing is, it doesn't normally happen in one spot. Personally I don't believe god sits above controling each person and event in the world. I don't think most people believe that either.

[wer]

We are all one Universal Force. The Christian god is a load of bull-shit. And they say satans bad...hahaha.

[Stevehattan]

The main deal in my mind is this: if there were a god anything like the Christian one, he would instantly turn everyone into angels to spare them from the uneccessary pains of life on earth, since he loves us so much and could just snap his fingers and make it so. Obviously something is amiss. God either doesn't care about/hates us, or more likely, isn't there at all.

[Rev. Pastora]

wer: Why do you think the Xtian God is not the same thing as your Universal Force? The whole Xtian 'picture' of God is nothing more than an attempt to provide them something they can comprehend, in order that they can focus their attention. Would you feel this way about a child who's only ability to comprehend math relies on his mental picture of how many crayons are in the box? He truly wants to understand math, and is attempting it to the best of his comprehension, but cannot focus his attention without relating it to something he can get his head around. I'm not defending Xtians, or any of their practices, but you seem to be making fun of people who are using a symbol to try and understand something difficult when you bag on "their God". Their God concept is, basically, something they can grasp in order to try and understand to the best of their ability, and something to focus on when they feel the need to contemplate your Universal Force. There are plenty of ugly things in the history of Xtianity it would be perfectly reasonable to bitch about, but their picture of God shouldn't be one of them. Why not just call them retards because they don't share your level of comprehension?

[Belisarius]

May the force be with you, wer.

[wer]

Christian history does have a lot of blood on their hands. My whole family is Christian, my aunt is a fanactic, and has recently tried to "save my soul". Drive me a little... crazy .

[sephiroth clock]

I know much sadness was caused by the tsunamis, but there is even holiness in death. Death is just a beginning to a new life. Whether you believe in reincarnation or heaven. Peoples physical bodies may die, but their astral or spiritual bodies live on, because they are eternal. It is unfortunate that they did not recieve the chance to live longer and experience and learn more in this world, but they will all have another chance. They will find new physical bodies and begin life again. Becoming better people until they can move on from this world place. It is also unfortunate that there loved ones must suffer from being seperated by them. I'm not saying that I would like to die, I don't wish too, I'm not ready for it. Humans are way over our carrying capacity on this earth, and we can't maintain this level forever. Nature has a way of keeping itself balanced. If it wasn't a tsunami then it could have been disease. Anyways, death isn't the end, it's the beginning.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Originally posted by dreamscape Well it could be his way of cleaing inventory. So...god has blond hair, blue eyes, is muscular beyond belief, and is about 6'4"? Hmmm.

[Rev. Pastora]

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin So...god has blond hair, blue eyes, is muscular beyond belief, and is about 6'4\"? Well, yeah, sometimes. Sometimes he's the hot girl across the bar. He was Joey Ramone once. You really never know.

[Belisarius]

The devil is 10 ft. tall, fairly skinny with dark black skin, his face is inexplicable. He's a pretty scary figure, satan.

[Mystical_Journey]

This event has definitely made me question my own faith/lack of faith, in relation to my own spirituality. I’m not Christian, or believe in the bible as the true word of God. Its just people writing in a higher form. I have to admit if there was a divine controller, how could they let this happen? The reality is that innocent people were killed, people from all over the world who went on holiday, not just the poor and the hungry. For me its like a self fulfilling prophecy for those devoted disillusioned fundamentalist Christians "Its the end of the world, apocalypse is here". SAVE ME SAVE ME ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

[evangel]

Originally posted by spoon 1 Whats the recent earthquake/tsunami in Indonesia say about god's plan? 2 Is there a positive spin you can put on it? * 3 Maybe god just doesn't like kids? * 4 Can the idea of a loving god exist in the face of something of this magnitude? 5 If these disasters are in is his plan then he's sadistic. * * 1) It says the same thing that all the earthquakes and tsunamis throughout history say: Get out da way! 2) Why put a "positive spin" on it? So we can presuppose that we understand His perfect plan? It is what it is. Anyone who says that God controlled it for this particular purpose or that particular purpose is a ranting idiota, Christian or not. 3) Maybe God doesn't like kids who say "maybe he doesn't like kids." Maybe dis, maybe dat. Maybe Maybe. 4) Obviously it has... and thus, most likely it will. 5) Only if "God" fits into TINY BOX which someone has presupposed or assumed in their mind to be called "Christian." I suppose it might be EASier to say it was a random geological event that has nothing to do with God (if you believe that, why not leave it at that instead of trying to go anti-Christ?). But who wants ease and convenience when you can have truth?

[bradybaker]

Funny how religious people can always find a convenient explanation for everything while non-religious people are comfortable saying "I'm not really sure" until a reasonable explanation pops up.

[Mystical_Journey]

I suppose it might be EASier to say it was a random geological event that has nothing to do with God[/b] True in my understanding, very well spoken! I like that explanation! simple facts! But dont the christian people as a collective believe that God controls the earth? (not having a go or anything just interested)

[sephiroth clock]

God cannot control us for he has given us the gift of freedom. We are gods will. We choose are own reality. I'm not saying that we could have stopped the tsuanmi but just as an overall truth. Our thoughts become realities. We must always fulfill the next higher thought of overselves and our world. That is the only way we can begin to have a spiritual shift of conciousness in this world. If enough people think of something, those thoughts begin to dwell in the astral and enough thoughts build up in one place their vibrations slow down and move into the physical realm. Anyway the point is God divine plan is existence. There is only us and our thought.

[Mystical_Journey]

So if you think about killing someone, and all those thoughts enter the astral plane, do those thoughts convert to mind-bulliets and kill that person, without proof you killed them?

[spoon]

Originally posted by evangel Why put a \"positive spin\" on it? So we can presuppose that we understand His perfect plan? It is what it is. Anyone who says that God controlled it for this particular purpose or that particular purpose is a ranting idiota, Christian or not. I wasn't really interested in god's purpose, unless you can actually find one that justifies an infinite being fulfilling it through killing ~160k people. An omnipotent god who cares just a little would have fulfilled this vauge "purpose" a different way. And don't say "you can't know god's will" because I dont need to, omnipotence is omnipotence. Being able to do anything leaves a lot of room for assumptions .

[evangel]

Well you know what they say about assumptions... As far as justifying killing 160k people, it is actually a lot more than that if you factor in all earthquakes, storms, lightning bolts, plagues, etc. over all time. I thought we'd been over this stuff before, but who's to say that it would be injust for God to wipe out all of us right now, if he so chose to? Our ideas of justice especially in light of God's character are often skewed by our own opinions of what "an all-loving God" SHOULD be. If God wanted to, he could end it all for all of us right now. Would that make him unjust. Absolutely not... To me, that simply shows our humanistic selfish nature which leads us to believe that we are somehow deserving of ANYTHING, much less all the blessings like happiness, satisfaction, etc. in this life. Originally posted by Mystical_Journey But dont the christian people as a collective believe that God controls the earth? (not having a go or anything just interested) I can't speak for all Christians, but the scriptures are pretty clear that God is sovereign over all creation, which I would take to mean not only is he in control of the earth, but ALL of reality as we know it down to the last sub-atomic particle. I would not say that he "controls" all things in the same sense that one would controla puppet or a robot, but rather that he has authority over all things and has predetermined or pre-ordained all things. As far as explanations of convenience go, I'd say that the most "convenient explanations" for things such as the tsunami event are the explanations that disclude God.

[Universal Mind]

If there were an infinitely powerful God who is the epitome of good, there would be no tsunamis killing anybody. There would be no suffering. There would be no evil. He/she/it would make every consciousness, an infinite number of consciousnesses, infinitely blissful forever. If one argues that such a state would involve problems, I beg to differ. Such a scenario would be flawless and infinitely great, and even if there were problems with it, God would use his infinite power to erase those problems while preserving the benefits. Besides, wouldn't everybody be willing to give up free will and such to have all (infinite number) consciousnesses infinitely blissful forever? Conclusion: There is no infinitely powerful God who is the epitome of good. We are fungus growing meaninglessly on a spec of dirt that floats around in infinite space. Nothing matters. However, things matter to me because I am an organism with cognitive functions.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Originally posted by bradybaker Funny how religious people can always find a convenient explanation for everything while non-religious people are comfortable saying \"I'm not really sure\" until a reasonable explanation pops up. Yes, I find it funny how the average joe's "I dunno" is more logical (until further research), than the religious person's...

[Stevehattan]

^Unless you're all-knowing, there will be times when you won't know things and have to say "I dunno". Making up answers or arriving at answers without putting enough research into what you're trying to find out only makes you feel like you know things, but it's a waste of everybody's time. Originally posted by Universal Mind If there were an infinitely powerful God who is the epitome of good, there would be no tsunamis killing anybody. There would be no suffering. There would be no evil. He/she/it would make every consciousness, an infinite number of consciousnesses, infinitely blissful forever. If one argues that such a state would involve problems, I beg to differ. Such a scenario would be flawless and infinitely great, and even if there were problems with it, God would use his infinite power to erase those problems while preserving the benefits. Besides, wouldn't everybody be willing to give up free will and such to have all (infinite number) consciousnesses infinitely blissful forever? Conclusion: There is no infinitely powerful God who is the epitome of good. We are fungus growing meaninglessly on a spec of dirt that floats around in infinite space. Nothing matters. However, things matter to me because I am an organism with cognitive functions. Very very well put. This is exactly what I've always believed (known) a god would do if one existed and cared at all for us. But tragically, things aren't anything like this.