What if there is something outside the universe?

Say for instance, there was an end to the universe, and there is something "Outside" of it. Like say, we are merely in a small marble comprised of galaxies, stars, planets ect.

The concept of this is so prodigious, I was hesitant to post this, so I apologize if this is a little "out there".

Remember the ending sequence to the movie Men In Black? You know what I mean then...

BTW, I new to these forums, so sorry if I did something wrong in terms of guidelines or breaking into the forums. I'll be working on my profile and getting to know you all. I find philosophy and in general, this whole site very interesting. However I often find such discussions to be overly trivial and somewhat of a "neverending debate". But it's very fun and great to talk about. I was excited to post here, and the above question was the first thing I though of.

Thank You

Google "Multiverse"

Cool exobyte, I should have though of that. But perhaps something even outside the Multiverse itself?

The Omniverse, and after that, the Polyverse (just a fabricated name to throw in there). And so on...

I know this sounds funny and ridiculous, but how about a series of things ending in "Verse" until we stumble upon something else?

I shouldn't push this too far should I? Lol

I think the chances of more than one universe existing, and stuff existing outside of the universe makes more sense than not.

If you go back far enough in time, eventually you get to the point where either some thing just randomly appeared out of no where, or random events caused stuff that has been here for all of time to suddenly react in a way they never have before. Both seem unlikely.

To me it seems more likely that there is some system that creates and destroys universes, just like solar systems and galaxes are formed then destroyed. Infinite time backwards, makes a lot more sense if everything is in a cycle and repeating. Since the unvierse isn't doing it(as far as we can tell), then there should be something else outside of it.

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I know this sounds funny and ridiculous, but how about a series of things ending in "Verse" until we stumble upon something else?

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What do you mean by something else? Why wouldn't that thing also be a 'verse'?

Personally I think there's a multiverse, but at some level you're going to have something which contains the whole of reality. But it's worth remembering, the universe itself is far to large to comprehend, really.

The whole thing seems like a sort of mental masturbation to me. How do you define the universe? Usually I take it to mean all that which we are able to detect. If we can detect something, it is part of the universe. Therefore, anything 'outside' the universe is by definition, undetectable and can be considered to not exist. As subjective beings, the only things that really matter are those that we can experience, so if something is intrinsically beyond our experience, then it effectively is non-existent.

The multiverse idea is not the same as something 'outside' the universe in my opinion. Universe means 'all that is' so technically a different time-space continuum that runs parallel to our own is still part of the one universe. This may just be a problem with labelling, of course, since no matter how much stuff we find, all of it together will still be contained in the universe simply by how the word is defined.

When talking about a multiverse it's custom really to refer to the result of our Big Bang as the 'universe', just to make the terminology easier.

I don't really see why things outside of our experience shouldn't exist. For example, what about stars on the other side of the universe from which the light is yet to reach us? Do they not exist until the light reaches us? If so, how does the light reach us if they don't exist? What about Earth? It didn't exist until anybody was here to experience it. But then abiogenesis could not have occured and we never would have existed. It doesn't make any logical sense.

You can't go outside the universe, it's the universe.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

You can't go outside the universe, it's the universe.

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So, I guess no one ever taught you not to use the word your defining in the definition.

Also the definition of universe "encompasses everything" has changed in recent years. Specifically with the study of Quantum Mechanics. It is not as simple as "The Universe is the Universe" anymore. The OP has a valid inquiry.

Start a religion about it. Maybe you'll luck out like Scientology. lol

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Originally Posted by Tall Tale

I shouldn't push this too far should I? Lol

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Hey, go for it. This is fascinating stuff. No need to apologize for having deep thoughts. Anybody who bitches at you for it is a stupid troll. Exploring reality and thought is a good thing. :flyaway:

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Originally Posted by Tall Tale

Say for instance, there was an end to the universe, and there is something "Outside" of it. Like say, we are merely in a small marble comprised of galaxies, stars, planets ect.

The concept of this is so prodigious, I was hesitant to post this, so I apologize if this is a little "out there".

Remember the ending sequence to the movie Men In Black? You know what I mean then...

BTW, I new to these forums, so sorry if I did something wrong in terms of guidelines or breaking into the forums. I'll be working on my profile and getting to know you all. I find philosophy and in general, this whole site very interesting. However I often find such discussions to be overly trivial and somewhat of a "neverending debate". But it's very fun and great to talk about. I was excited to post here, and the above question was the first thing I though of.

Thank You

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Yes, odds are, we are not exclusive. While the universe thus far is infinitely expanding, it is finite; there reaches a point where matter and energy cease to exist at all. The void beyond is so vast and deep, that as of yet, we are unable to detect anything beyond it. That said, I find it unlikely that there has been only one big bang. Interesting, thought provoking, cool. :D

Multiverse....does that mean there is a second me somewhere out there? with or without the exact same thoughts as i am thinking now? or am i a female there like "The One". By second me, i also mean infinite because most likely there would be infinite me's out there in their cosmos.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The whole thing seems like a sort of mental masturbation to me.

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Mental masturbation is pleasurable, not sinful. Let the thinkers think. Besides, thinking leads to more discoveries and advances that once didn't exist.

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Originally Posted by ExoByte

So, I guess no one ever taught you not to use the word your defining in the definition.

Also the definition of universe "encompasses everything" has changed in recent years. Specifically with the study of Quantum Mechanics. It is not as simple as "The Universe is the Universe" anymore. The OP has a valid inquiry.

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If you went outside the whole of the universe, then what you used to be in would cease to be the whole of the universe, so it's a logical impossibility.

You kinda just completely ignored Exo. What you just said doesn't contradict him.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

If you went outside the whole of the universe, then what you used to be in would cease to be the whole of the universe, so it's a logical impossibility.

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Oh, because we couldn't possibly define "universe" in more than one way. Perhaps, beyond the massive void sometimes called the border of the universe, there are other universes, together compiling the "multiverse." I see no reason our universe should be exclusive.

Everyone is a universe, we've been living in a multiverse this whole time!

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Originally Posted by Xei

When talking about a multiverse it's custom really to refer to the result of our Big Bang as the 'universe', just to make the terminology easier.

I don't really see why things outside of our experience shouldn't exist. For example, what about stars on the other side of the universe from which the light is yet to reach us? Do they not exist until the light reaches us? If so, how does the light reach us if they don't exist? What about Earth? It didn't exist until anybody was here to experience it. But then abiogenesis could not have occured and we never would have existed. It doesn't make any logical sense.

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Thats not really what I'm talking about. It is possible to experience a star whose light hasn't reached us, either by waiting or going out to find it. I meant in the sense of a space time continuum that never intersects our own, so that no information can ever pass from one to the other. I was assuming the definition of universe that means "everything we perceive to physically exist" and so we can think about other 'universes' that are outside of what is physically possible to percieve, but it will never really get anyone anywhere. We might as well assume they don't exist since as far as we are concerned, they don't.

Also, as far as general relativity is concerned, it is also possible to experience the past even though we haven't figured out how to do it yet.

hmmmmmmmm!! sounds like a fun mind trip


like wrapping your head around eternity. mandelbrot time!

I'm going to go back to the creation of the universe for a sec.

This shit blows my mind. I used to ALWAYS think about it when I was younger, then I eventually didn't anymore. I suddenly thought about it out of nowhere the other day while I was driving.... I think. Can't remember. But the point is I finally fully grasped the outrageous concept. Or, I grasped the fact that it is impossible to grasp the concept.

I think Quantum Physics would help answer some questions when we can understand it. I'll have to read Schrodinger's Cat though and figure out what it's all about.

But anyway, I realise that our big bang theory is probably bullshit. If there is nothing, nothing can be created. It's just not possible. But then how do we get here? When did everything start? How did everything start? Did it ever start? People have asked this so many times.... it's pointless. Because we don't know how our universe even started in the first place.

My theory of how 'our' universe got here is that all this matter was sucked through a black hole. It eventually formed all these planets and stars and etc. How the other universes got here (or 'there' (assuming there are multiple universes and black holes are the gateways between them)) I have no idea and don't see much point of contemplating it or trying to figure it out. But I will anyway because it inspires such fantastic monumental awe.

As for something being outside our universe or multi-verses, I have thought about this too. I've often pondered going outside the universe. Would it be nothing? No light (not white or black, nothing), sound, touch, just nothing? Would it just destroy you? Can things exist outside the universe? I don't know.

What if there is something outside the universe? If there is something outside of it, it automatically becomes a part of the universe. But the way you are thinking about it.... like if we are in a circle, and it has a set cut off point where there is nothing, and we throw something outside it, or someone goes outside of it. What if? Well, that would be mind blowing. It would mean we would have to disband everything we know about everything.

TBH, the only conclusion I can come to that makes sense, is that some other being/s or some form of matter that isn't even conscious, created us (is a being, through some awesome technology they have, if just some matter/object than through some sort of reaction) and that the 'universe' they/it/whatever are in is COMPLETELY different from ours. Like we can't even comprehend it. I say this because I can't think of a way for there to be nothing and suddenly something appears and the universe gets spewed out. It doesn't make sense to me. So I think they this other universe I hypothesize is so different from ours, there is no nothing or something, there is no start or end. Like.... they aren't even concepts. It's just some.... unimaginable thing/place where awesome and epic things happen. And one of the facets of this 'place' makes it so that it is not unfeasible for there to be nothing and then something. But it can't be comprehended unless we could visit it to even get a glimpse of what it looks like.

Tall Tale - Have you ever listened to/watched or read things by Carl Sagan? He's a great philosophical astronomer, I think he'd be right up your alley, same goes for anyone else contributing to this discussion.

well the big bang only tries to explain how this infinite point of energy became everything that we know of today - the known universe

but the big bang is not a theory that explains how everything was created

it relies on this infinite point of energy to have already existed before the creation of the universe. where this point came from, how long it was an infinite point, isn't something the big bang tries to explain

it's not the theory of the infinite point - just the theory of it's bang

even thinking about how this infinite point expands and becomes everything in the known universe is mind numbing enough!

I don't think that's quite true juroara. Afaik, (I've never actually read any books about it, just what I've been told and articles I've read etc.) the big bang theory also contains an explanation of how this point appeared. It has something to do with tiny particles that randomly appear and disappear. I have no idea how that's possible.

Jesus fuck, every time I think about it, like just then, my mind does something very strange lol.

Just to expand(sort of) on my idea about another universe being completely different. I have realised it might be hard for some people to even understand what I'm talking about. I have noticed scientists, when trying to figure out the chance of life on other planets, always assume all life is made from carbon, so there has to be water on a planet for it to sustain life, because all life forms that we know which are made from carbon need water to live. This is wroooong.
The chances are, in another universe, life has arisen out of some other thing. So it wouldn't need water or oxygen etc.
Even this fact alone could change that whole universe and the way those beings perceive it. Maybe they know exactly how this thing was created, maybe they don't. Maybe it's so fucking simple, but because of our model of the universe we just can't figure it out.

Maybe I'm MAD!:lol:

EDIT: Oh yeah, just realised I went wayyy off topic.
The original post was about something being outside the universe. Please proceed to room 12A to continue arguing about that.

http://neurosynthesis.files.wordpres...universe-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by juroara

well the big bang only tries to explain how this infinite point of energy became everything that we know of today - the known universe

but the big bang is not a theory that explains how everything was created

it relies on this infinite point of energy to have already existed before the creation of the universe. where this point came from, how long it was an infinite point, isn't something the big bang tries to explain

it's not the theory of the infinite point - just the theory of it's bang

even thinking about how this infinite point expands and becomes everything in the known universe is mind numbing enough!

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Originally Posted by tommo

I don't think that's quite true juroara. Afaik, (I've never actually read any books about it, just what I've been told and articles I've read etc.) the big bang theory also contains an explanation of how this point appeared. It has something to do with tiny particles that randomly appear and disappear. I have no idea how that's possible.

Jesus fuck, every time I think about it, like just then, my mind does something very strange lol.

Just to expand(sort of) on my idea about another universe being completely different. I have realised it might be hard for some people to even understand what I'm talking about. I have noticed scientists, when trying to figure out the chance of life on other planets, always assume all life is made from carbon, so there has to be water on a planet for it to sustain life, because all life forms that we know which are made from carbon need water to live. This is wroooong.
The chances are, in another universe, life has arisen out of some other thing. So it wouldn't need water or oxygen etc.
Even this fact alone could change that whole universe and the way those beings perceive it. Maybe they know exactly how this thing was created, maybe they don't. Maybe it's so fucking simple, but because of our model of the universe we just can't figure it out.

Maybe I'm MAD!:lol:

EDIT: Oh yeah, just realised I went wayyy off topic.
The original post was about something being outside the universe. Please proceed to room 12A to continue arguing about that.

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M-theory explains a lot at the present moment. There's supposedly a whole lot of data that lines up perfectly. It's still going to need a whole hell of a lot of research, but I think it holds water.

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

http://neurosynthesis.files.wordpres...universe-1.jpg

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Hehe, I've thought about that too. When I was a kid I thought maybe we are just like germs on some MASSIVE giant being's skin. Then later I thought maybe we are just a thought inside someone's head. ^
I dunno though. Probably less likely than multiple universes.
Also a lot of things look similar when you magnify or shrink them.
You will notice that they aren't exactly the same. They just both have blobs that are connected to other blobs by streams of blobs. Of course the blobs aren't just blobs but I assume everyone knows what they are.

The basic problem i have with this thread is the notion that if there is something outside of this universe, then there is a boundary, a wall where this Universe ends and whatever else is on the other side begins. I think the biological equivalent is a membrane.

I can't see that happening. To me the universe is infinite and boundless, perhaps it is not but its scope is too great for the average mind to comprehend.

I very much doubt that this universe is a closed system with a definite boundary separating it and its contents (energy) from whatever other entity ,or universe that permeates the border/boundary. On the other hand, my doubts probably stem from my inability to comprehend such a thing, and my limited education in regards to the matter at hand.

Well how is that a problem with this thread?
That's just a very important view point to bring up in this thread. Which just makes it all the more interesting. Am I right?

As far as scientists know, our universe is one of these shapes.
http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect20/End_of_universe.jpg
http://www.esalenctr.org/zimages/evosum2007/elgin1.gif
http://www.intentblog.com/archives/torsion.gif

Outside of it is nothing. And it is constantly expanding, but not infinite as you state.

So if it is expanding, there HAS to be something on the other side, or more exactly, nothing on the other side. Unless the universe is consuming or covering up something else which is outside it as it expands.

I don't think there's any doubt that the universe is expanding. I wouldn't define this as infinite. If you think it actually is infinite, why do you say that?

So theoretically if we could get to the edge of our universe and go beyond it - we'd have to travel much faster than the speed of light, since the universe already has a ~14 billion year head start - we could see what is beyond it.

And someone said according to science we can't travel faster than the speed of light. But that's fucking bullshit. We can't NOW. But we will be able to. There's no doubt in my mind.

Oh yeah. The traveling outside.... the problem might be that it is similar to the Earth. You travel in a car you can't really jump off the edge of the sphere at any point and fall into space. This is because of gravity of course. But imagine that is what the universe is like. You try to fly to the edge but you end up going round and round. Something to ponder. Not sure if it's true.

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Originally Posted by Soros

The basic problem i have with this thread is the notion that if there is something outside of this universe, then there is a boundary, a wall where this Universe ends and whatever else is on the other side begins. I think the biological equivalent is a membrane.

I can't see that happening. To me the universe is infinite and boundless, perhaps it is not but its scope is too great for the average mind to comprehend.

I very much doubt that this universe is a closed system with a definite boundary separating it and its contents (energy) from whatever other entity ,or universe that permeates the border/boundary. On the other hand, my doubts probably stem from my inability to comprehend such a thing, and my limited education in regards to the matter at hand.

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Most people would define the "end of the universe" as the point where all matter and energy resulting from the Big Bang ceases to exist. It may not be a definite "membrane," but it is a defining limit. A lot of people tend to confuse "infinite" with "infinitely expanding." The universe has a finite amount of matter and energy within it, but is not infinite in size. It has a "border" of sorts; not a physical one, but it is there.

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Originally Posted by tommo

Hehe, I've thought about that too. When I was a kid I thought maybe we are just like germs on some MASSIVE giant being's skin. Then later I thought maybe we are just a thought inside someone's head. ^
I dunno though. Probably less likely than multiple universes.
Also a lot of things look similar when you magnify or shrink them.
You will notice that they aren't exactly the same. They just both have blobs that are connected to other blobs by streams of blobs. Of course the blobs aren't just blobs but I assume everyone knows what they are.

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Each cell in your body contains an exact copy of the universe. The universe is a hologram, but our brain filters out things and limits us to 5 senses.

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Each cell in your body contains an exact copy of the universe. The universe is a hologram, but our brain filters out things and limits us to 5 senses.

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Prove it.

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I don't think there's any doubt that the universe is expanding. I wouldn't define this as infinite. If you think it actually is infinite, why do you say that I don't think there's any doubt that the universe is expanding. I wouldn't define this as infinite. If you think it actually is infinite, why do you say that

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@Tommo and Mario, thanks for explaining this stuff to me. It's something i don't know much about but would like to.

If the Universe's edge is defined as the farthest reaches where one can find matter and beyond which nothing else is present, then wouldn't the universe be infinite in possible scope?

If the universe is currently finite, but it is expanding and that which lies beyond it is nothingness, then the more it expands, the bigger it gets, and since there is nothingness beyond it then wouldn't that mean that there is probably an endless amount of expansion that it can do?

Sorry if i mangled my words a bit. I hope i made myself somewhat understandable.

Basically i'm saying that even if the universe is not infinite, the growth which it can attain is infinite because beyond it is an infinite amount of space for it to expand into. Is that right?

Given an infinite amount of time, the universe will expand to infinite proportions. Provided, of course, that "dark matter" is a crock and we aren't looking toward a "big crunch" anytime soon. If our universe is destined to fizzle, though, then it will continue expanding outward indefinitely, possibly colliding with other universes, possibly not. Then there's the argument that there really are multiple universes, but they are not within our "dimension" in a way; that is, they exist, but completely separately of our version of reality, if that makes sense. To put it another way, they are on a separate "plane." We could build a spaceship that travels impossibly fast, beyond the borders of our universe, and explore the void beyond and find nothing at all. The other universe would not be contained within this reality, but in a separate and unique reality, virtually impossible to reach through conventional means.

This is all just pure speculation, but kinda fun to think about anyway. :D

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Originally Posted by Soros

If the Universe's edge is defined as the farthest reaches where one can find matter and beyond which nothing else is present, then wouldn't the universe be infinite in possible scope?

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Yes, possible scope. But atm afawk it isn't infinite. But it's possible scope is. See mario's post for variables.

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Originally Posted by Soros

If the universe is currently finite, but it is expanding and that which lies beyond it is nothingness, then the more it expands, the bigger it gets, and since there is nothingness beyond it then wouldn't that mean that there is probably an endless amount of expansion that it can do?

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Probably. There's one problem I have with this though. Which I just thought of before. The universe as we define it, is all the matter; stars, planets, people, other animals, trees, black holes, air etc. Within space there is all these aforementioned things existing. Around these objects, there is nothing. Space is a 'vacuum', meaning no particles of oxygen or anything, outside of these objects. Which is probably why we call it 'space'.:lol:
So by 'space expanding', people don't mean this black stuff with stars and other crap in it spreading outwards. What is meant is that the objects are going outwards, they started going outwards from the big bang. At the edges of the universe there is probably just dust particles and no planets because there is not enough matter left to accumulate in to planets. I'm kinda going off track a bit, but it may be pertinent, not sure.
The point is, though, that I find it hard to contemplate what it is that is actually expanding. We only know the universe is expanding by examining the objects IN space. They are slowly drifting apart. Our planet and the others in our solar system are slowly getting further and further away from each other. But we can't actually see the universe expanding without these objects.

So.... it's hard to imagine how 'space' or our universe is expanding still if there are no objects left at the edges of the universe to tell. Because space is nothing, and outside the universe, we're assuming there is nothing either! Get what I'm saying?

So I think something is missing from our theory atm.

I've also wondered why space is black. Since space is nothing, there should be no colour in between all the planets and stars etc. It should look like air, in between them. Maybe it's all the other galaxies and black holes and whatever absorbing all the light. I might have to re-think that though. Coz light being beamed in to the atmosphere by stars/suns might look the same as a black object absorbing light. But I'm pretty sure it shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Soros

Sorry if i mangled my words a bit. I hope i made myself somewhat understandable.

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S'all good. Sometimes it's hard to articulate properly when thinking about these things, coz it's so mind blowing I've found. But you did fine lol

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Originally Posted by tommo

S'all good. Sometimes it's hard to articulate properly when thinking about these things, coz it's so mind blowing I've found. But you did fine lol

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Absolutely, i feel smarter just thinking about these type of things. lol

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Originally Posted by tommo

So I think something is missing from our theory atm.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

This is all just pure speculation, but kinda fun to think about anyway.

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I think in the next 20 years or so we will come closer to getting the facts though.

All we can do till then is just speculate on the nature of the universe and how it works, but at least it makes for some good philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Soros

I think in the next 20 years or so we will come closer to getting the facts though.

All we can do till then is just speculate on the nature of the universe and how it works, but at least it makes for some good philosophy.

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Yep I agree completely. Dunno about the 20 years part. But it will be a while. It's fun to wonder anyway.