Thread: Calvinism idea of Predestination.

Originally Posted by siuol

can someone clarify this for me?

god is backwards, paradoxical, and cannot exist by our basic reasoning of logic.

however, if you let all that logic and reasoning and rational thinking go, you'll see him just as well as the true believers.

Yes, the Christian notion of god falls apart under rational scrutiny.

The Christian thing to say is that "God works in mysterious ways". For many believers that will suffice.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Yes, the Christian notion of god falls apart under rational scrutiny.

Well, an already-highly-rationalized personification of the Eternal emphasizing intent and creation falls apart under further rationalization, but whether such a caricature constitutes "the Christian notion of god[sic]" depends on the Christian in question.

@siuol You're operating with a "graven image," a fixed notion of God as more or less a big man in the sky, a human-like consciousness somehow 'outside' of the universe and events. To borrow a proverb, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha." You cannot come to much insight on the deeper mysteries of your faith if at any point you assume you know what God is. So in short,

Originally Posted by siuol

can someone clarify this for me?

no

My prediction:
80% of all posts here will say: "God doesn't exist", even though that is not the subject matter.
7% of the posts will say: "God does exist", even though that is not the subject matter.
5% of the posts will say: "Predetermination doesn't exist"
5% of the posts will say: "Predetermination does exist"
3% of the posts will be an attempt to debate this post, or insult me for posting it.

If I dare post my opinion on this matter it will be attacked, because it is not exactly what science teaches us.

To answer your question: Yes, it doesn't make any fucking sense. That's why they are called religious beliefs.

Originally Posted by siuol

In school, we were talking about calvinism and the idea of predestination. The idea is that since god is all knowing, he would be able to see what you would do in the future, and could mark you for heaven or hell, and you would have no way to change where you were going. they said this contradicts the catholic belief of free will. however i dont see how the catholic view is much different.
if god truley does know everything, technically he would know if you were going to heaven or hell already. sure, if you had free will, it would be your choice, but he would already know your choice. and if he knew that from your own choices you would end up in hell, why create you in the first place? isnt he a kind god? and some people say that factors in life such as a "miracle" followed by a sudden conversion can save people, but he would also know if people would witness those miracles or preform one. so im not sure how god can know everything yet not decide who is going to hell before they die.
can someone clarify this for me?

God is omniscience but it's not total omniscience, it's "inherent omniscience", which does not negate the choices and the processes of free-will that individuals make nor does it constitute a factor of determinism. God knows every possible life that you could live, this does not negate free-will as God is only a "witness" to all possible choices. Here's a way to look at it. God has created our space-time dimension and therefore by definition would not be constrained by it's linear dimension constraints as we are. Think of a time dimension which is curled up, a sort of hyper-time if you will. When thinking this way the subsequent event is scientifically possible. In a 2D time, you have the ability to move laterally from one outcome to another, considering you do not like the current outcome you are facing now for whatever reasons. Now if we consider looking at this from 3D time, you would be able to witness all the outcomes available and directly select the best outcome. This is the case with regards to God's omniscience. God has witnessed all of the possible lives you are to live ahead of you. God witnesses these scenarios as an "outside observer". It does not impact your ability to make choices. God knows all infinite outcomes of every choice that you will make and thus witnesses all possible lives/scenarios that are a result of each choice you make before you make any of them.

Either God is not omnipotent, or he is not all powerful and the creator of all, or he is not kind/compassionate. Or more likely he doesn't exist.

In my opinion, if the christian God exists he is not compassionate. If he was he wouldn't make hell(sorry Tao, but I feel the need to point out that if they believe in hell they can't have too sophisticated a view of God, and it is this unsophisticated view that is what is generally discussed on this website).

Do you believe that God is a deity? Do you believe in God, most people who do capitalize the word, I'm just curious.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Well, an already-highly-rationalized personification of the Eternal emphasizing intent and creation falls apart under further rationalization, but whether such a caricature constitutes "the Christian notion of god[sic]" depends on the Christian in question.

@siuol You're operating with a "graven image," a fixed notion of God as more or less a big man in the sky, a human-like consciousness somehow 'outside' of the universe and events. To borrow a proverb, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha." You cannot come to much insight on the deeper mysteries of your faith if at any point you assume you know what God is. So in short,

Wouldn't this view of God be irrelevent to the idea of calvinism? If God is not an entity, a creature a diety, something with a brain and/or mind, how can it know what will happen in the future?

If the definition of God depends on the christian in question how are you supposed to have a discussion of it? I think it's fairly obvious that the archaic deity version of God is what's being talked about here.

Although I admit, I liked your answer. Seek the truth for yourself.

My prediction:

60% of the time sloth will initially attempt to offer an opinion on a topic relevant to the thread, but as soon as anyone tries to engage him in a level of discussion that is any deeper than "thank you for sharing sloth," he will throw his hands up away from the discussion, mock the other parties as being petty and bickering, and paradoxically attempt to cast himself as the only sensible person in the thread.
40% of the time sloth won't even offer the initial opinion and will instead go straight for the mocking part.

Seriously, if you don't find the nature of discussion in ED to your satisfaction, why are you even here? It seems to me like you'd prefer to hold discussion with an echo chamber.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Either God is not omnipotent, or he is not all powerful and the creator of all, or he is not kind/compassionate. Or more likely he doesn't exist.

God isn't all powerful in the general sense that He does absolutely everything that can be done. God is All-powerful because he does everything He wills to do.

Originally Posted by stonedape

In my opinion, if the christian God exists he is not compassionate. If he was he wouldn't make hell

Your theory is trumped by Scripture. God didn't create a hell type place where you will be tormented for time indefinite after you die.

and here you go take your rightful place amongst the 80%

Originally Posted by sloth

80% of all posts here will say: "God doesn't exist", even though that is not the subject matter.

stonedape, i do not believe in God, i was just confused on this matter and i was trying to understand it better. (this also means the God does/ does not exist posts are not very helpful). To me it was confusing saying God is all knowing yet he does not know if you will go to heaven or hell. Ne-yo cleared that up for me i think, but i still think that if God can see all possible outcomes but not the one that will happen He is not truely Omniscient, which i thought was against christian teaching (not sure though, i havent studyed the bible or anything.) i guess an omnipotent being could bend logic and reality, but i see that as cheating =P

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

God is All-powerful because he does everything He wills to do.

So do I?

and here you go take your rightful place amongst the 80%

80% of statistics are made up.

Originally Posted by DuB

My prediction:

60% of the time sloth will initially attempt to offer an opinion on a topic relevant to the thread, but as soon as anyone tries to engage him in a level of discussion that is any deeper than "thank you for sharing sloth," he will throw his hands up away from the discussion, mock the other parties as being petty and bickering, and paradoxically attempt to cast himself as the only sensible person in the thread.
40% of the time sloth won't even offer the initial opinion and will instead go straight for the mocking part.

Seriously, if you don't find the nature of discussion in ED to your satisfaction, why are you even here? It seems to me like you'd prefer to hold discussion with an echo chamber.

Your only contribution to this thread has been to cry about how I mock people? Seriously, what are you even whining about, anyway? Because I made a prediction? I don't believe anyone would (choose to) comprehend my view of reality, so I made a prediction about the thread instead. I think my prediction was pretty cute, personally. Apparently it made you angry. LOL! Do predictions make you angry, DuB?

1. That's wrong
2. You're a dummy
3. God doesn't exist
4. Science!

Originally Posted by DuB

1. That's wrong
2. You're a dummy
3. God doesn't exist
4. Science!

ROFL!!!
Who are you even talking to?

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Well, an already-highly-rationalized personification of the Eternal emphasizing intent and creation falls apart under further rationalization, but whether such a caricature constitutes "the Christian notion of god[sic]" depends on the Christian in question.

At some point, you're just going to have to come to terms with the fact that it's mostly Christians that caricturize the notion of god in the manner that you're describing and that it's not a legitimate (i.e. bringing one to insight) spiritual path.

EDIT: I should say, in general it's not a legitimate path. There will always be exceptions. But I promise you that for every one serious christian (i.e. consciously made the decision to be a christian and regularly consults the bible rather than identifying as such by default) with any insight into reality at all, there's a hundred that are just clinging to anthrocentric, iron-age beliefs. The belief system doesn't carry its weight.

Originally Posted by siuol

stonedape, i do not believe in God, i was just confused on this matter and i was trying to understand it better. (this also means the God does/ does not exist posts are not very helpful). To me it was confusing saying God is all knowing yet he does not know if you will go to heaven or hell. Ne-yo cleared that up for me i think, but i still think that if God can see all possible outcomes but not the one that will happen He is not truely Omniscient, which i thought was against christian teaching (not sure though, i havent studyed the bible or anything.) i guess an omnipotent being could bend logic and reality, but i see that as cheating =P

If there are multiple possible outcomes then it isn't predetermined, those outcomes are just imagined. If this is the case God is not only not omniscent but also very delusional. If Ne-yo is right calvinism is wrong. However as I'm guessing we already agree they are both wrong.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

God isn't all powerful in the general sense that He does absolutely everything that can be done. God is All-powerful because he does everything He wills to do.

Is he omnipotent? This means that he can do anything.

So I take it no, he isn't(in your opinion since know one actually has any way of knowing this).

Is it God's will to show compassion to humans? If so why isn't he doing more miracles, we could sure as hell use some.

Your theory is trumped by Scripture. God didn't create a hell type place where you will be tormented for time indefinite after you die.

Well that's sort of the meta-physical background being discussed in this thread. So if that isn't the case you ought to have just said there is no hell and predestination is wrong so calvinism is wrong and dropped it. Your view of God is incompatible with calvinism(it doesn't even matter if there is no hell, if there are multiple possibilities then calvinism is false).

If God did create a hell would you agree that he is not compassionate? Clearly a compassionate person/deity would practice forgiveness rather than eternal punishment.

yet another topic the enrages me cause it talks about religion on schools

Originally Posted by sloth

ROFL!!!
Who are you even talking to?

You realize that your edit time stamps are displayed for all to see?

Originally Posted by gameoverlord345

yet another topic the enrages me cause it talks about religion on schools

lol calm down, i go to a catholic school (forced to because of grandparents, im athiest), and even if i didnt we talked about this in west civ when we came to the protestant reformation.

i dont get how christians can make sense of this, omniscience does not go with not knowing something. im not trying to find the answer to this to find truth, rather to see if any explanation can be given by christians that would give any reason to believe this other than completely ignoring it.

Originally Posted by siuol

Ne-yo cleared that up for me i think, but i still think that if God can see all possible outcomes but not the one that will happen He is not truely Omniscient, which i thought was against christian teaching (not sure though, i havent studyed the bible or anything.) i guess an omnipotent being could bend logic and reality, but i see that as cheating =P

God is Omniscient but scriptures doesn't support His omniscience being in the sense of total omniscience. God witnessing all possible outcomes means that He's already witnessed all of the possible scenarios of choices that you're likely to make/have made long before you arrived to that crossroad. So even though He doesn't directly witness the choice that you've made He has already witnessed it. Let's say I never omitted hell from the equation. God would've already witnessed you in hell and equally would've already witnessed you in heaven. In this scenario you have free will to go to either place. However, the real scenario is "existence" or "non-existence", the choice is ultimately yours.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Is he omnipotent? This means that he can do anything.

That's something you've made up about God. Omnipotent in the Bible as referenced to God doesn't carry those attributes that you're describing. God is All-Powerful meaning God can do everything with power that He wills to do. It does not mean He does absolutely anything. For example, God doesn't do silly i.e., create a rock so heavy that He himself cannot life it.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Is it God's will to show compassion to humans?

Yea, that's pretty obvious. He sent His only begotten son as an atonement and ransom for our sins so that we may have continued existence.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Well that's sort of the meta-physical background being discussed in this thread. So if that isn't the case you ought to have just said there is no hell and predestination is wrong so calvinism is wrong and dropped it. Your view of God is incompatible with calvinism(it doesn't even matter if there is no hell, if there are multiple possibilities then calvinism is false).

Calvinism is a false doctrine to me. I made that pretty obvious, I wasn't stating otherwise. Also the idea of Calvinism is incompatible with God period.

Originally Posted by stonedape

If God did create a hell would you agree that he is not compassionate? Clearly a compassionate person/deity would practice forgiveness rather than eternal punishment.

Let's say God did create a hell and God also created a heaven. How is His compassion limited when He gave you free will to chose which one of these places you would like to go? If anything giving you the free-will to chose to go to Heaven only magnifies His greatness and how much compassion He has for humanity.

Which supports that free will has to exist because if it doesn't then indeed, Jesus was sent for nothing and Jesus died for nothing, because we never had a choice in the first place and are thus predestined for a particular outcome. If Jesus died for nothing, then what exactly did He die for?

Originally Posted by siuol

lol calm down, i go to a catholic school (forced to because of grandparents, im athiest), and even if i didnt we talked about this in west civ when we came to the protestant reformation.

that makes me even madder

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

That's something you've made up about God. Omnipotent in the Bible as referenced to God doesn't carry those attributes that you're describing. God is All-Powerful meaning God can do everything with power that He wills to do. It does not mean He does absolutely anything. For example, God doesn't do silly i.e., create a rock so heavy that He himself cannot life it.

So you're on the record for saying that god is not omnipotent?

God is not your version of Omnipotent. He's the Biblical version. You can put that on whatever record you're talking about.

It all makes sense now!