All points of view are truth

I was asked "why do people have conflicting views on religion?"
I believe that the truth for an individual is what they believe to be true. I see waking reality much like my dream reality creating as I go along. When I'm following my passion (painting, dreaming,...) is when I feel the connection to everything all views this is when I feel connected to my soul. When I was a little girl I use to call it "the part of me that knows I exist". Not only do I feel it when I'm doing something I love but also when I'm still, quite, and realize that I'm more then just my body. It's the observer in me, the me before all my experiences. If I erased yesterday I would still be me, taking away the last 10 years all the way to back when I was an infant (infinite) I would still be me experiencing life through this body. It's the place behind the ego. Its the foundation for the ego to develop. When I relate to everyone from this perspective then I can see that there is no hate there is only experience. In waking life pretend it is a dream and put your pure soul consciousness into other people and see how you perceive the world from that perspective. If someone is being hateful or cruel you might see that somewhere along the line they where afraid and that fear as manifested into hate and cruelty. To be connected I feel I need to see from as many perspectives as possible because all perspectives are God Source because it is in all things. Just as we are all things in our dreams.
I give thanks for this life by accepting and bringing it all within through an open heart. Its that simple and that difficult, it is what you believe it to be.

My hell would be not to have the ability to open my mind to see the bigger picture. To me stuck in the same thoughts without the possibility of change.
I believe that everyone speaks from truth, their truth. Everything that happens, is said, or seen, has meaning. It is all how I choose to filter it and bring it into my reality. My truth is we all come from the same place and we are all here to share our experiences our perspectives so that we can grow as a whole.
I dreamt of a lighthouse and I BECAME the light. I felt it was the light from the sun, soul, God, which ever name you choose to call it. It was the place inside all of us, that spark of life. From that place there is only love and exceptance everything else is experiences and there is no right, wrong, good, or bad to an experience it just IS. When I bring myself back to this place in waking life through meditation I can put my consciousness into others even objects and see the world and situation from that perspective. Compassion is what is learned. If someone lashes out, then put your consciousness into them, what do you feel? Hurt and/ or Fear. Every child is innocent and we are but the sum of our experiences.
For example: If you dream of a snake and you are afraid of it. When you reflect on your dream in the morning put your consciousness into the snake or menacing creature (whatever that may be for you), be the snake. Are you still afraid? You are probably not afraid of yourself. All parts of your dream ARE you (this is my view). In waking life I try to use this same technique (everything is a reflection of self) with people or things I am at odds with and it helps me to understand the situation from my highest self or the observer point of view perspective and to feel compassion. When you start to do this in your waking life it will carry over into your dream life (much like a RC) and then the magic happens. I started to form a multidimensional web of realities gathering as many perspectives as possible both from my waking reality and my dream reality. We are the sum of our experiences and perspectives. How beautiful life is when we all believe it possible.

It's my point of view that your thread is bollocks and you are wrong about everything.

I understand where you are coming from, and I would agree that things like praying are useful and can give your guidance and help you 'connect' with the world around you. However, you made a leap of logic after that, in claiming that its all true. It might be useful, but that doesn't make it true.

For example, I think praying and meditation are basically the same thing. They are different ways of seeking answers, and both are useful. Now if you say surfing also helps you find answers, then I say that is useful as well. We are fine at this point, you can have any view and they are all useful. Now if you say surfing helps you find answers because aliens live in the sea and beam the answers into your head, you would be wrong. We all know that isn't true.

So yes, in some senses I agree with you. We all have different views that are helping us down similar paths. There isn't a right or wrong path to take, since we are all individuals, but that doesn't make everything you encounter on that path true. Some times you learn and can grow a person even while believing in something that isn't true.

[QUOTE=Xei;1783139]It's my point of view that your thread is bollocks and you are wrong about everything.[/QUOTEI
I accept your your view. I hope whatever you believe brings you happiness.

Aric, I should of edited this post better before I posted it because now I see I do sound a bit scattered and repeat myself, but I do believe all I wrote. I believe that waking reality is much like dreaming no one can say what is true for someone else. This includes aliens in the sea. Aliens have never been a part of my reality but I can't speak for someone else. I believe that all paths lead to the same destination (again I would like reafirm these r my thoughts) wether u believe in Buddha, Jesus Christ, Atheist, Goddesses........ It is all about discovery of self and existence.

Please do edit your posts better. I can't read that literal wall of text.

When you have really long winded and convoluted sentences with extremely poor formatting then that tends to have large implications for the legibility of the text rendering it very difficult to read to the vast majority of people which is why formatting is so useful which then will cause more people to read your posts instead of skipping over them because you have very long sentences and bad structure that run on for far too long and give people eye strain and this is not something you should aspire to do so I can only suggest you start to change your posting style to a manner more conducive to generating a discussion on the actual content of your posts rather than people discussing the formatting of said posts which results in more interesting topics because the discussion of formatting is itself not a very interested discussion so in conclusion you really should change the way you post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Please do edit your posts better. I can't read that literal wall of text.

When you have really long winded and convoluted sentences with extremely poor formatting then that tends to have large implications for the legibility of the text rendering it very difficult to read to the vast majority of people which is why formatting is so useful which then will cause more people to read your posts instead of skipping over them because you have very long sentences and bad structure that run on for far too long and give people eye strain and this is not something you should aspire to do so I can only suggest you start to change your posting style to a manner more conducive to generating a discussion on the actual content of your posts rather than people discussing the formatting of said posts which results in more interesting topics because the discussion of formatting is itself not a very interested discussion so in conclusion you really should change the way you post.

---

Thank you for your encouragement to be better. I will do my best. I do struggle with getting my thoughts into print. Your post was hard for me to read but I learn greatly from things that effect me in such ways. Thank you and much love!

Well, editorial comments aside, (which actually play into what I'm about to say, in a sense), something about your points resonates with me. I do think that a majority of the ideas people express are, at a minimum, attempts at honest description of something. There may be all kinds of ways that communication fails on the part of the sender or receiver, but people are rarely flat-out lying about their perception (the internet doesn't count). Therefore, opposing and even offending views can be useful. Lots of people who are afraid of ideas have a hard time with this.

My point of view is that the point of view expressed in the OP is false.

The first statement is wrong. Truth depends on either logic or factual occurrences. Without those two things there is no such thing as truth. In logic, a statement and its antithesis cannot both be true at once. There is some circularity here in that truth depends on logic and logic is based on the assumption that some statements are true and others are false, but it is what it is. And that is why the above post makes your argument fall down.

Truth is the gestalt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Truth is the gestalt

---

I agree

The above is my belief which can not be wrong for me but can be wrong for someone else. Like I said this is MY view. I respect everyone's perspective and would never tell someone they are wrong in what they believe!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lidybug

The above is my belief which can not be wrong for me but can be wrong for someone else. Like I said this is MY view. I respect everyone's perspective and would never tell someone they are wrong in what they believe!

---

What if they believe they can fly and are about to jump out of a window? What if they believe life is but a dream and do something extremely damaging?

In my opinion all delusion is like this. By believing something that you don't know you gain nothing but confusion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StonedApe

What if they believe they can fly and are about to jump out of a window? What if they believe life is but a dream and do something extremely damaging?

In my opinion all delusion is like this. By believing something that you don't know you gain nothing but confusion.

---

Belief is a messy word, especially if you use it like that.

From everyone's experience, a unique worldview or perspective is derived. Much like how a 3D image is not truthfully observable from one position, but rather only truthfully conveyed through infinite positions surrounding it in space, "Truth" itself cannot be observed from one position, but is actually made up of the collective of perceptions it is surrounded by.

I get the feeling people who share this viewpoint have a sort of false dichotomy in their minds - either you're a hateful egotistical materialistic, or you're a happy 'enlightened' relativist and solipsist.

One problem with the idea that there's no objective truth and that the truth is what you believe, is that saying 'there is no truth besides what you believe' would be an objective truth which would have to be true no matter what you believe.

Ok, so what you're talking about then is strictly "subjective" truth. In other words - if someone believes something, then it's true for them, even if it's not objectively true. Example, if someone believes the moon is made of cheese, then it's true FOR THEM (ie in their fantasy world) even though it holds absolutely no objective truth.

Ok, as long as we acknowledge that it's only a fantasy, then it is true. Their fantasy moon can be made of cheese. This however is an exceedingly small truth. And if the person persists and says "No - I mean the actual moon - the same one the Apollo mission visited and brought rocks back from - it's really made of cheese" - then there's absolutely no truth in that. But they can feel free to bite into one of those moonrocks if they want to or try to spread it on a cracker.

About religions - of course most of them share some core values, but they consist of more than just core values. Most religions also include the caveat that "this is the only true religion" (how can they all be the only true religion?) and some even go so far as to say "anyone who doesn't believe this religion is a heretic and heretics will burn in Hell".

So I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say all religions are true, but only that many of them share some core values in common. I think this is essentially what you were saying, but just stated in a more concise way.

If everything is true, then truth is completely relative, or even meaningless. Then what value is there in truth?

Darkmatter, LOL! Yes maybe that is what isn't clear Subjective Truth or ones own "fantasy". If a delusional person honestly believes the moon is made out of cheese even if it has been proven not to be that is the individuals truth in what everyone else would consider a delusional reality. Religion is an inner journey of self discovery its unlikely that any two are the same.
Thank you for taking the time to discuss and ask questions to help me further understand my truth.

http://youtu.be/0PjS2KYU3Is
I believe in many views and many perspectives... this is one of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dianeva

I get the feeling people who share this viewpoint have a sort of false dichotomy in their minds - either you're a hateful egotistical materialistic, or you're a happy 'enlightened' relativist and solipsist.

One problem with the idea that there's no objective truth and that the truth is what you believe, is that saying 'there is no truth besides what you believe' would be an objective truth which would have to be true no matter what you believe.

---

By the same principle that I believe that there are real, discernible reasons for why people hold the strange beliefs that they do, I believe that there are real, discernible (and perfectly sensible) reasons for why people generally don't venture outside their comfort zones to try to understand strange beliefs to the extent that I do. In fact, both of these frameworks are telling about human nature and can be learned from. So I, at least, don't fall into that false dichotomy.

My first principle on this is that there is always a reason for any belief. This doesn't mean it's true, that's a separate issue; an important one, but less important than the reason for the belief. This applies reflexively to myself... only once I understand the reasons for my own beliefs do I stand a chance at honesty.

Also just to soften the dialogue, the idea isn't that all points of view "are" true, pov's are complex things. It's more useful to say all pov's "contain" truth. I wouldn't bring it up but some people are arguing this too literally.

Very well stated IndieAnthias. Yes, when I refer to all points "are" true I am referring to truth for the individual. Yes some are taking this very literally but I love the discussion and the emotion it evokes in people. Thanks for posting!

Ok, I guess I was taking it a bit too literally.

There aren't many people who honestly believe the moon is made of cheese! And the ones who do would be crazy. It's hard to define whether a crazy person truly believes the things they say. I suppose I was taking it more as "everything anybody says is true is true." - which of course is a whole different issue.

One example I almost posted is terrorists. But thinking about it - I suppose even what they believe does have truth to it - the West certainly is decadent - especially from their perspective. I don't know that committing mass murders will do anything to help their cause, but their belief still does hold some validity - at least that part of it.

But they also believe they need to kill infidels to cleanse the earth for Allah. What does it mean to say "this is true for them"? Well obviously it is true as far as they're concerned... just because it's unjust doesn't mean they don't believe it.

But again I feel this is a truth devoid of meaning or value.

We have to realize that some people believe what they believe because they're deluded or have been indoctrinated (same thing). So subjectively their viewpoint might be true for them, but some people's viewpoint fails to align with concrete reality.

This is the kind of belief that told us the earth was at the center of the universe (it is - visually - for anyone on the earth, and until good telescopes and scientific observation proved otherwise everyone believed it). And metaphorically of course humanity does occupy the center (most important place) in the universe - as far as we're concerned. Barren rocks orbiting distant suns with no life on them are of little importance except scientifically or for possible mining in the future.. so for most people you could say the earth is still the center of the universe. It's true both metaphorically and visually. And the scientific viewpoint that the earth is only one of countless trillions and trillions of dirtballs circling countless trillions and trillions of stars is also true from the scientific perspective..

Ok, I can accept this. Yes, all viewpoints contain some truth if you search enough to find it. But I find that once I start thinking like this it becomes almost impossible to make a decision. In order to be myself I have to stop thinking about everybody else's viewpoint and return to my own.

I don't know what my point is - I'm just thinking out loud.

You also have to keep in mind that that's your perception of muslims from your point of view, that's not necessarily the way they are. That's the way we are led to think about them from the Western Perspective.

And furthermore, you must remember that some people have higher vantage points where they can view a lot more of the truth than others, but they're not in the shoes of any of the positions they're looking at, they have a different vantage point which they believe is true but is just one angle. You don't know what it's like for someone who actually believes that stuff. Maybe, for them in that position of life, that simply has to be true as it provides a vital wrung for them to climb to a higher vantage point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

You also have to keep in mind that that's your perception of muslims from your point of view, that's not necessarily the way they are.

---

I never said Muslims - I said Terrorists. I'm talking about the ones who bomb embassies. But you're right - I don't necessarily know if they BELIEVE they're striking a blow against Western decadence - many of them might have much more pragmatic reasons for why they do it and only spout fanatical rhetoric as a cover. Even still though - I'll admit that they're doing what they believe is the right thing to do for them. Including the lying about their reasons. In the same way any murderer believes he has to hide the evidence. In the same way American government tells us stories about weapons of mass destruction and an Axis of Evil to cover what they're really doing in the Mideast.

Let me put it another way

A general does not necessarily tell his men all the details, he gives them their orders. If they knew they were going into a suicide mission, for instance, they may be less likely to sacrifice themselves. Their perspective on the battlefield is intentionally left as narrow as possible to ensure they follow their orders to the letter and don't jeopardize the greater conflict being waged in self-interest. The soldiers can only have faith in their country to lean on, not knowledge of the details.

Perhaps the sacrifices the terrorists are making are necessary to stop Western Powers from enslaving us all. The fact is, none of us know the future. We can use principles to guide us through the present but these principles also hinge on our unique perspectives. We can figure out the best way to act based on the way we see things, but we cannot figure out the best way to act.

Truth is only relevant in action, anyways.

Ok, I accept all of that - even though it's a rather ironic analogy considering many of the terrorists are suicide bombers!! :lol:

But now it becomes apparent that the corollary is also true - everyone's perspective also contains falsehoods.

I fall back on my first point: Truth is the gestalt.

Ah, but it seems to be a gestalt of truth and falsehoods woven together inextricably.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Belief is a messy word, especially if you use it like that.

From everyone's experience, a unique worldview or perspective is derived. Much like how a 3D image is not truthfully observable from one position, but rather only truthfully conveyed through infinite positions surrounding it in space, "Truth" itself cannot be observed from one position, but is actually made up of the collective of perceptions it is surrounded by.

---

That doesn't mean that false things are true. False things are sometimes interesting, extremely so sometimes. They can be very beautiful. But to live your life in delusion is not so good in my experience. Very wasteful.

What do you gain from believing something that you don't know? Hypotheses are great but it's important to be honest with yourself about the difference between what you know and what you think might be.

All of the major religions(Judeo/Christian/Islam/Hindu) believe things that they do not know. This effects their values and the way the live their lives. This has a huge effect on society.

Information is a battle tactic, nothing more.

I don't believe you are claiming something that is possible for a human being, StonedApe. Everyone believes what they believe because they decided that it's most likely. No one believes something they think is probably less true than something else.

Quote:

---

The strategic withholding/manipulating of Information is a battle tactic, nothing more

---

Fixed

http://inquiry111westminster.wikispa...7/elephant.jpg

Nobody has a complete concept of what exists. Even science gives only partial views - very little is absolutely concretely known for a fact - even if probability is 99.9999%. I think this means we can't understand the totality of anything (Omnis' 3d view), we have to settle for feeling the parts of the elephant we can reach and try to understand what they are. Until somebody turns the light on, the elephant might as well be a wall, a spear, a fan etc..

Of course it's also important for us to strive to understand more than we already do. Once the lights are turned on and all the men see the elephant, it's no good for them to continue to argue for their former beliefs (something may people will do out of stubbornness and fear of change).

Well... let's imagine a meeting between an atheist and religious zealot. The atheist uses calm reasoning and the religious zealot dismisses it. Does this make the religious zealot wrong? They're simply choosing Tradition over Discovery in this specific scenario. And why shouldn't they? Tradition has delivered them thus far, tradition has provided a model of existence that they have found agreeable and furthermore, it may be that the tradition is rooted in an investment and cannot be easily dislodged (if they stop believing, they'll go to hell or won't go to heaven according to their beliefs). This means they might be afraid of giving up their beliefs, but does being afraid make you wrong?

The same occurs when people dismiss theories related to Jungian psychology and the dimension of the mind, just one wrung up. We all choose to either stick with what we know or try something new. A balance is required to ensure we continue to evolve while preserving our form in the process (only buying into ideas that prove sustainable).

Information can appear to be true and yet be parasitic or cancerous in nature if it's spread in a way that influences society against its best interests. In much the same way, information that may strike you as false can sustain a culture and protect it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Information is a battle tactic, nothing more.

I don't believe you are claiming something that is possible for a human being, StonedApe. Everyone believes what they believe because they decided that it's most likely. No one believes something they think is probably less true than something else.

---

When did I claim that people believe something that they don't think is true? I said that religious belief is in general believing things that you don't know; that you hope are true or that someone else told you are true and you are taking their word for it. Most people believe things because other people decided it was most likely or worse that it would be profitable for them if people believed it.

I think most people believe in an afterlife not because it is most likely, but because it is most comforting. If people really understood emptiness they would live their lives very differently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

This means they might be afraid of giving up their beliefs, but does being afraid make you wrong?

---

if it does then it does. If you are afraid of change and afraid to admit that you are wrong then it does. Being afraid of change is a very bad thing.

Quote:

---

Information can appear to be true and yet be parasitic or cancerous in nature if it's spread in a way that influences society against its best interests. In much the same way, information that may strike you as false can sustain a culture and protect it.

---

Can you give an example of this in a religious context(or any)? When is the truth destructive? People can be destructive but the truth is just the truth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StonedApe

When did I claim that people believe something that they don't think is true? I said that religious belief is in general believing things that you don't know; that you hope are true or that someone else told you are true and you are taking their word for it. Most people believe things because other people decided it was most likely or worse that it would be profitable for them if people believed it.

I think most people believe in an afterlife not because it is most likely, but because it is most comforting. If people really understood emptiness they would live their lives very differently.

---

Their tradition taught them what they know, they don't not know what they believe. They know it based on tradition and they trust their tradition more than they trust scientific discovery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Information can appear to be true and yet be parasitic or cancerous in nature if it's spread in a way that influences society against its best interests. In much the same way, information that may strike you as false can sustain a culture and protect it.

---

Ok, again, I can accept all of this - but it means we have no way to know which truth is more true. Does science have all the answers? Of course not - you could agglomorate (is that a word? :lol:) all known scientific models of a human being - the cellular, the atomic, the genome etc, and it fails to tell you anything about a person that's as relevant and useful as knowing their personality or being in love with them or being an enemy... these are all just different perspectives, and each has value in different cases. For a medical emergency I'd trust the medical perspective (but then the question becomes - which doctor. which technique). But for dealing with a person face to face you want to know them personally and possibly have some psychological insight that comes from book learning (especially if they have some kind of personality disorder or something).

So I suppose it comes down to being able to move fluidly between various perspectives as the situation changes. We aren't capable of understanding anything in its totality.

My response to the OP remains - Every perspective contains some truth and some falsehood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Their tradition taught them what they know, they don't not know what they believe. They know it based on tradition and they trust their tradition more than they trust scientific discovery.

---

Faith or trust do not make things true. Though they do make people believe and do very irrational things.

Do you really think they don't know what they believe? How can they believe it then?

Well, the OP is meaningless unless we accept that the word Truth as used in it is completely subjective - not objective reality.

Faith and trust of course are things people rely on in the absence of knowledge. And while they don't have much to do with concrete objective truth, a religious faith can certainly create someone's spiritual/subjective Truth.

Omnis - he's arguing for Objective truth and you're arguing for Subjective truth - you're not going to make any headway. I think in order for this to go any farther (meaningfully) it would require a more proper definition of exactly what's meant by TRUTH in the OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StonedApe

When did I claim that people believe something that they don't think is true? I said that religious belief is in general believing things that you don't know; that you hope are true or that someone else told you are true and you are taking their word for it. Most people believe things because other people decided it was most likely or worse that it would be profitable for them if people believed it.

I think most people believe in an afterlife not because it is most likely, but because it is most comforting. If people really understood emptiness they would live their lives very differently.

if it does then it does. If you are afraid of change and afraid to admit that you are wrong then it does. Being afraid of change is a very bad thing.

---

Says you. Fearing change causes people to be cautious of change so they can preserve their form. Do you buy into every crazy idea someone tells you? Too much of either polarity leads to problems, mutation or preservation.

Quote:

---

Can you give an example of this in a religious context(or any)? When is the truth destructive? People can be destructive but the truth is just the truth.

---

Information, dear watson. I was talking about information with this sentence. Information isn't just truth, information is a collection of words and they can appear true or not but they can never BE true or not because they're words. When you inform people that they need a vaccine you're telling them the "truth" but if you hide the fact that the vaccine also has a sterilization agent in it, you're using the truth in a destructive way.

And many things seem false such as the bible. But the bible has commanded man to stop hurting each other and have faith in an idea higher than their self interest. The core principles of the bible have preserved and unified a culture.

Every religion is a collection of symbols pointing to higher truth. The horizontal form of religion guides the level it's written for. It may appear false to people on other levels but it's not designed for them.

Quote:

---

Faith or trust do not make things true. Though they do make people believe and do very irrational things.

Do you really think they don't know what they believe? How can they believe it then?

---

I believe my argument was that they know exactly what they believe. They simply arrived there through trust in tradition rather than exploration or discovery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Well, the OP is meaningless unless we accept that the word Truth as used in it is completely subjective - not objective reality.

Faith and trust of course are things people rely on in the absence of knowledge. And while they don't have much to do with concrete objective truth, a religious faith can certainly create someone's spiritual/subjective Truth.

---

Sure, my point is just that most of these subjective truths are actually just delusion(or metaphor mistaken for being reality; though that is delusion isn't it?). They're what people want to be the truth(in the sense of reality) rather than what the truth is. The concept of subjective truth seems like bullshit to me though. There's the concept subjectivity, what is the use of adding the word truth on the end of it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StonedApe

There's the concept subjectivity, what is the use of adding the word truth on the end of it?

---

Well I was qualifying the word truth from the OP cause that's the only way I can accept it. :lol:

Hehehehehe. So we could reduce this thread to: all points of view are subjective. Or: all points of view are points of view.

The one that works for me:

Everyone's viewpoint is important to them.

I never read the OP, sorry. I read the title an agreed with it. I don't agree that "each point of view is true" but I do agree that "all points of view are truth." Truth is nothing less than the gestalt.

You responded lengthily and proceeded to argue about an OP that you didn't read? lol. It wasn't even a long OP.

I did no such thing. I only ever argued my point of view.

I know that was meant for Omnis, but I must admit - I did read the OP but I'm mostly just responding to the title as well.

Dammit, I can't stop thinking about this!! :mad:

Ok - it seems very ironic to me that the title of this thread is a statement about truth that is not true. It needs qualification before I can accept it. I tried, as an intellectual exercise, to see the opposing viewpoint, but in order to do so I had to add the word Subjective.

So - if we devalue the meaning of the word Truth so that it means "everything someone believes in" - then we need a new word to mean what Truth used to mean. Why go to all the trouble when we already have perfectly good words for each concept?

Quote:

---

All points of view are beliefs

---

Fixed. Now truth still means what it really means. :shadewink:

How about

Every Point of View is false except for all of them?

Keep working on it..

All points of view rolled up into a big ball does not equal Truth - it equals a confusing mass composed of all truths plus all falsehoods. Unless you're talking about looking at all perspectives to find similarities and then winnowing out the falsehoods.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Keep working on it..

All points of view rolled up into a big ball does not equal Truth - it equals a confusing mass composed of all truths plus all falsehoods. Unless you're talking about looking at all perspectives to find similarities and then winnowing out the falsehoods.

---

Well you can't just roll it up into a ball, it doesn't work like that. The gestalt is not the sum of all parts mashed together, it's the sum of all parts. The aggregate of POV is what truth is, if ever we had the slimmest chance of understanding what truth is. Any other definition of truth, in my opinion, is just POV.

I see what you're saying - but to achieve that would require complete enlightenment plus complete scientific knowledge. Can anyone ever do that?

I think that if such a thing as a universal consciousness exists, that is the only thing to which truth is not a mystery.

Is truth required to make decisions? Is truth required to be happy? Is truth required for a civilization to flourish? All that is required is functionality and sustainability. If it works, it works. It may work for short term goals rather than long term ones (in the sense of cancer) or for personal goals rather than wide-spread goals (in the case of parasites) but none of our scientific achievements or philosophical revelations have doodly to do with Truth. They have always and will always lean upon functionality for the service they provide us and the trust they deserve.

This Truth of which you speak sounds rather lofty and abstract, and pretty much unnecessary. If we've got this far without ever seeing a hint of it, then do we need it? It also sounds like something we'll never see.

But we are capable of knowing some truths. Like the fact that if I drop a hammer gravity will pull it downward (assuming I'm on a planet).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

This Truth of which you speak sounds rather lofty and abstract, and pretty much unnecessary. If we've got this far without ever seeing a hint of it, then do we need it? It also sounds like something we'll never see.

But we are capable of knowing some truths. Like the fact that if I drop a hammer gravity will pull it downward (assuming I'm on a planet).

---

Truth is supposed to mean what's true right? I bring this point up to remind you that Gravity is not true. You can't prove a hammer will fall before it falls. After it falls, you can use gravity to explain how it fell but therein lies the key difference. Before and After. Truth and Narrative. Nothing is true until you can prove its true and even then you only prove that one particular instance from that one particular POV. Reminding me of my "How can spirituality be studied scientifically?" thread, this goes back to casinos.

Casinos don't know what your cards are going to be. They only know what your cards are likely to be and they have a 51% likelihood that the cards will work out in their favor rather than yours. They don't know truth, but they understand enough about the process to know where to put their money.

Truth does not rely on proof - only our understanding of it does. Truth is truth whether or not we know what it is.

Quote:

---

They don't know truth, but they understand enough about the process to know where to put their money.

---

Yes - this is all we can ever know of truth really - I said somewhere up above that nothing is known with total certainty - even those theories with 99.9999% certainty. But some things are known better than others. For me, I tend to stick to those things that are fairly well known, and anything else I'll call a guess or a belief or a faith.

Technically we're still debating semantics.

I don't know, I think its valuable to remember that absolute truth is outside the realm of man and man is left only to work the figures and make decisions, not to discern truth.

Darkmatter,
“I’m thinking out load”.
Here is a meditation that might explain further my OP and where I am coming from.
I had a meditation a few months back about the Sun and the center of the universe. From my meditative perspective. This is a recounting of my thoughts during the meditation. Think of our solar system (along with our earth) as the manifestation of our Sun. The earth being where the Sun manifests and experiences life through living matter. Bringing forth our chakra systems in a rainbow of color. Let me explain. In a meditation I saw the root chakra (red) as being very grounded, foundation, starting point, I also felt a strong association with Mars. The second chakra sacral (orange) being the beginning of creation, womb, seeds planted. Third Chakra Solar Plexus, the Sun, Yellow, the center of our physical and spiritual being, our self confidence, our power. Fourth Chakra, Heart, Green, I always think of this chakra when I’m in nature and all the green around me, I always feel more connected to source when I’m in nature. This is where I feel it all comes together in the physical. I live in the rainforest and I see every color of the rainbow (chakras) around me. I feel as if I am witnessing creation and the chakra system through the eyes of the creator and what if that was the Sun? Fifth Chakra, Throat, Blue, sky, air, the song of birds, water, evaporation. With the Chakras above the Solar Plexus (sun) I feel like we are connecting the heavens and spiritual with the earth and physical aspects of creation. Sixth Chakra, Third eye, Indigo, deep space, multiple perspectives, higher self, clear vision. Seventh Chakra, Crown Chakra, enlightenment, multidimensional knowledge, this is the Source from which all Sun’s generate into existence. From this perspective everything IS.
For me it is like the view point you mentioned about quote “ all view points having “some” truth if you search enough to find it. That it is impossible to make a decision. In order to be myself I have to stop thinking about everybody else’s viewpoint and return to my own”. From the perspective of the “crown” or Source their just IS because in it all perspectives exist.

This was my experience. I experienced this light in a dream and I know it to be real. My insights are mine alone just as many other people of varried religions have experiences that supports their belief. They are that of the individual and can not be proven (as of yet) by science but it does not make them any less true.
Example: LD if you had never had one and someone tried to explain it to you (before it was proven by science) would you except it as truth if you yourself had not had the experience of LDing? You can’t know what an LD really is untill you have one. I believe that there are many more experiences just as powerful out there in all religions that can only be validated by the experiencer.

StonedApe,
quote "All of the major religions(Judeo/Christian/Islam/Hindu) believe things that they do not know. This effects their values and the way the live their lives. This has a huge effect on society."
From your perspective they do not know.

Truth is in the experience.

:eek: What are you doing in my head??!!!

Seriously - you just blew my mind!!!

Ok, first - I have done some chakra meditation, so I know what you're talking about there. Though it sounds like you've made a lot more progress there than I have.

Second, I have read your thread about the lighthouse.

But BLAMMO!!

You just blew my mind with this one: "From this perspective everything IS." :shock:

Serious - how did you get in my head??!! I haven't had an experience like that from meditation, but I did have the "everything is" experience once from doing acid. I didn't do enough to hallucinate or anything, but my mind started racing and I engaged in a deep philosophical conversation with myself, the end result of which was a clear and profound thought - Everything Is. Meaning everything a person can think of exists - and if you can think of something that doesn't exist, then it now exists - as a thought. And moreover - I understood that everything we humans say is simply a partial attempt to express that idea.

I was going to post an exploding head gif here,but they look too grotesque or comical.

Thank you for explaining all that, and while I still feel mostly the same way, I can certainly understand having an epiphany like that on occasion - I just can't see remaining in that open-minded state for any length of time - you'd need to return to normal human experiencing when it's over or lose your sense of identity.

Just remembered - when I had this Everything Is experience on acid - it felt like the top of my head was open wide... crown chakra indeed.. :shock:

Quote:

---

Omnis Dei:
I don't know, I think its valuable to remember that absolute truth is outside the realm of man and man is left only to work the figures and make decisions, not to discern truth.

---

Hmmm... then the thought occurs to me - why are we having this discussion? I mean, I basically agree with you - but if Absolute Truth is beyond our comprehension - then pffft!

Well I believe it's only beyond Cognitive Comprehension but that we have greater awareness in us than our cognition which is tapped into this aggregate perception.

I think if there wasn't some sort of universal awareness to which we were a part, then no, truth the way that I see it probably does not warrant discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

:
Serious - how did you get in my head??!! I haven't had an experience like that from meditation, but I did have the "everything is" experience once from doing acid. I didn't do enough to hallucinate or anything, but my mind started racing and I engaged in a deep philosophical conversation with myself, the end result of which was a clear and profound thought - Everything Is. Meaning everything a person can think of exists - and if you can think of something that doesn't exist, then it now exists - as a thought. And moreover - I understood that everything we humans say is simply a partial attempt to express that idea. YES!!!!

This is my belief...
Exactly everything begins with a thought wether it comes from you or the source (which is ultimately you). I feel we are here to express ourselves and to get back to the understanding that we all come from LOVE that there really is no separation it is an illusion. I could go one step further and also say Time is an illusion. All conflict outside of ourselves is a reflection of our inner selves, and can be a tool to understanding compassion not only for someone else put for ourselves.
I can certainly understand having an epiphany like that on occasion - I just can't see remaining in that open-minded state for any length of time - you'd need to return to normal human experiencing when it's over or lose your sense of identity.

I meditate fairly regularly, not always by sitting quietly in a meditative state (I have two young girls 1 1/2 and 3 years old) but I constantly shift my consciousness into alternant perspectives. I posted an example in one of my previous posts " Clear light Perspective" about the awareness of a carrot meditation.

Just remembered - when I had this Everything Is experience on acid - it felt like the top of my head was open wide... crown chakra indeed.. :shock:
it is very possible to get back there in meditation and in your dreams. I was thinking of this last night as i was falling asleep (I didn't sleep, well my whole family is a bit under the weather) I'm going to start saying an affirmation as i fall asleep, " I want to see everything from the perspective of the Sun". Thank you for all your brilliant thoughts and for providing me with the insight for this affirmation! I believe that conversations of sharing perspectives are the key to expanding our awareness.


Hmmm... then the thought occurs to me - why are we having this discussion? I mean, I basically agree with you - but if Absolute Truth is beyond our comprehension - then pffft!

---

Connection, that is why we have these discussions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Please do edit your posts better. I can't read that literal wall of text.

When you have really long winded and convoluted sentences with extremely poor formatting then that tends to have large implications for the legibility of the text rendering it very difficult to read to the vast majority of people which is why formatting is so useful which then will cause more people to read your posts instead of skipping over them because you have very long sentences and bad structure that run on for far too long and give people eye strain and this is not something you should aspire to do so I can only suggest you start to change your posting style to a manner more conducive to generating a discussion on the actual content of your posts rather than people discussing the formatting of said posts which results in more interesting topics because the discussion of formatting is itself not a very interested discussion so in conclusion you really should change the way you post.

---

holy shit....

Ontological pursuits actually got us past the elephant metaphor of reality, though unfortunately, those who have failed to follow, typically assume something is because of a similar property - assuming the consequent type reasoning.

The fact is, when those of us who up to being rational, become so, we tend to see things simply as they are, and whether it is a small piece to a much larger one, is irrelevant in respects to what that particular piece actually is.

:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Somii

The fact is, when those of us who up to being rational, become so, we tend to see things simply as they are, and whether it is a small piece to a much larger one, is irrelevant in respects to what that particular piece actually is.

---

Um, no... no it's not. This is not rational at all, this is willful ignorance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Somii

Ontological pursuits actually got us past the elephant metaphor of reality, though unfortunately, those who have failed to follow, typically assume something is because of a similar property - assuming the consequent type reasoning.

The fact is, when those of us who up to being rational, become so, we tend to see things simply as they are, and whether it is a small piece to a much larger one, is irrelevant in respects to what that particular piece actually is.

:D

---

I disagree. The purpose of a small piece can only be understood by observing the larger mechanism. We can use ontological study to discover things like what the piece is made up and what physical properties can be attributed with it but we cannot see a forest by looking at a tree. We can postulate a forest but I've seen all sorts of wise postulations coming from people who cannot grasp the concept with their minds. Regurgitating knowledge is not the same as perceiving an object and ontological study has served more as a means to list judgments about things which end up fogging our perception rather than clarifying it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I disagree. The purpose of a small piece can only be understood by observing the larger mechanism. We can use ontological study to discover things like what the piece is made up and what physical properties can be attributed with it but we cannot see a forest by looking at a tree. We can postulate a forest but I've seen all sorts of wise postulations coming from people who cannot grasp the concept with their minds. Regurgitating knowledge is not the same as perceiving an object and ontological study has served more as a means to list judgments about things which end up fogging our perception rather than clarifying it.

---

You've missed a crucial detail in your disagreement.

You've missed the part where you explain what that is -_-

I was going to read this entire thread but got bored half-way through.

It seems to me that, in what I read, the original poster changed her mind. I think she was talking about objective reality at first, realised she was wrong after reading some of the responses, and changed her opinion on it, then pretended that subjective truth was what she meant all along. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dianeva

I was going to read this entire thread but got bored half-way through.

It seems to me that, in what I read, the original poster changed her mind. I think she was talking about objective reality at first, realised she was wrong after reading some of the responses, and changed her opinion on it, then pretended that subjective truth was what she meant all along. Correct me if I'm wrong.

---

Dianeve did you read my meditation (reply #58)? This is the source of my thoughts for this post. That might clear your thoughts a little further and maybe it won't. I have not changed my mind on this subject, but I do respect and appreciate all perspectives. I only ask that before making a comment as you did above that you read the entire post.
Thank you, Love & Light

Here is another meditation that brought me back to my thoughts of... everything is.
I am always coming from the view that God or Source is within me (us). The window through which I observe life is centered in the penetrating, dark, black hole of my pupils. The eyes are often called the window to the soul. When visions are perceived through my pupils it evokes an emotion and experience, becoming part of my consciousness influencing my vibration and creating who "I am" now. I've been told we are made in the image of God or Source? I see the the black holes of the universe as the pupils of God Source. I see the universe being absorbed by these black holes bringing all it perceives into the consciousness of God. I also feel that Source is constantly evolving and our vibrations have the capacity to change the face of God. As God evolves so does all of existence because we are all a spark of that Source influencing all that is.

I've been having a lot of fun with this. I would love to hear from others.
Much Love and Light to all of you!

I do like the way you think!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I do like the way you think!!

---

Now that blows me away! :shock: Here, all this time I actually thought you were an atheist Darkmatters but you're a believer? Threw me for a complete loop. :p

Saying I like the way someone thinks does not mean I believe the same things they do... :cheeky:

Is that a fact?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lidybug

I am always coming from the view that God or Source is within me (us). The window through which I observe life is centered in the penetrating, dark, black hole of my pupils. The eyes are often called the window to the soul. When visions are perceived through my pupils it evokes an emotion and experience, becoming part of my consciousness influencing my vibration and creating who "I am" now. I've been told we are made in the image of God or Source? I see the the black holes of the universe as the pupils of God Source. I see the universe being absorbed by these black holes bringing all it perceives into the consciousness of God. I also feel that Source is constantly evolving and our vibrations have the capacity to change the face of God. As God evolves so does all of existence because we are all a spark of that Source influencing all that is.

---

So, let me ask you something. What lidybug has mentioned here, can you honestly say that you reason with this information and it's of sound logic to you?

I think that thruth is whatever works. This means that the thruth is relative to whatever you are doing. If something does not work in a given task, it is not the truth and you should try something else. But I dont believe that all things have meaning by themselves. Meaning is where you put it. You can make any event meaningful, but you dont have to. Sometimes it's good not to make things matter so much... You'll be searching for deep hidden meaning in coca cola soon when you could just take it as it is, something to drink. Better to make some things matter more than others I think.

That is where perspective comes in.

Ne-yo,
It's not of sound logic to you? From my perspective it makes perfect sense but I do struggle with getting my thoughts across in writing. Please if you have any questions I would love to explain my thought further.
Love & Light

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Is that a fact?
So, let me ask you something. What lidybug has mentioned here, can you honestly say that you reason with this information and it's of sound logic to you?

---

Oh he doesn't disagree with you Lidybug (necessarily) - trust me - he's trying to pin me down to something he thinks I said that I actually never did. :cheeky:

Need I repeat myself again Ne-yo? Saying that I like the way a person thinks is not the same as saying I AGREE with them.

Here's what I like about her statement -

I like that she thinks outside the box. Nowhere have I ever heard anyone say that black holes are the cosmic pupils of god!!

I also like that she doesn't seem to be stuck on a strictly biblical idea of what god is - she seems to be engaged in a search of discovery about it, and to allow the possibility that it might be something internal rather than external. At least to me it seems that way, and from the fact that she says all points of view are truth, I assume she wouldn't disagree with my interpretation of what she said. I find it very refreshing to be able to talk about god in ways that aren't stiffly pre-determined by biblical dogma. Personally I don't like having people tell me what I'm allowed to think.

My belief is that all religions and myths are attempts to explain strictly internal phenomena - gods are essentially archetypes that people believed to be external since they couldn't conceive that anything so powerful could possibly come from inside their own mind. If you have a basic understanding of how the collective unconscious works, it's easy to see how people made these errors - so frequently pre-scientific people imagined things working backwards - for instance believing that vision was caused by some kind of rays emerging from the eyes rather than the other way around, as we now know to be true. Or because people saw insects emerge en masse from piles of garbage it was easy for them to believe they must have been bits of garbage that spontaneously began to twitch and somehow became insects. There was no way people could possibly understand the actual truth about these things until science probed into them and found the answers.

I think people like Lidybug are engaged in a powerful search for truth, as opposed to people who restrict themselves to only believing what they've been told to believe and refuse to examine their beliefs or check to see if they actually relate to facts about the world.

Nowhere in anything I've seen her say did she indicate that what she calls God or Source is identical to the God of the bible.

I'm not one of those atheists who think the bible is just a science fiction book or a fairy tale, or that God is no more than a lie made up to scare people into being good - I think religion is one of the most powerful examinations of nature and human nature and meaning, but that in Christianity it's been unfortunately crystallized into dogma and is no longer responsive to our changing understanding of reality. But when one thinks of god in the kind of terms Lidybug seems to, they free themselves of that restriction and allow themselves to search for meaning that's actually meaningful to us today rather than might have been meaningful to a primitive Hebrew tribe millenia ago and has since been crystallized and politicized to the point that even the original meaning is lost now.

I believe it's ultimately less important whether a person believes god is internal or external, as long as they're willing to constantly test and investigate whatever it is that they believe god is. And this seems to be exactly what she's doing. Ergo I like the way she thinks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lidybug

Ne-yo,
It's not of sound logic to you? From my perspective it makes perfect sense but I do struggle with getting my thoughts across in writing. Please if you have any questions I would love to explain my thought further.
Love & Light

---

I think your statement is very well put and completely rational in my eyes, however, I was just wondering why Darkmatters, who may I say, previous statement is now in conflict with his atheistic position, would all of a sudden agree with this mode of thinking. Considering he thinks EVERYTHING pertaining to a God is completely absurd, ridiculous and of circular logic. So now he's trying to clean it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Oh he doesn't disagree with you Lidybug (necessarily) - trust me - he's trying to pin me down to something he thinks I said that I actually never did. :cheeky:

Need I repeat myself again Ne-yo? Saying that I like the way a person thinks is not the same as saying I AGREE with them.

---

Ok, but you never answered my question. Do you think her statement was logically sound to you? Yes or no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I think your statement is very well put and completely rational in my eyes, however, I was just wondering why Darkmatters, who may I say, previous statement is now in conflict with his atheistic position, would all of a sudden agree with this mode of thinking. Considering he thinks EVERYTHING pertaining to a God is completely absurd, ridiculous and of circular logic. So now he's trying to clean it up.

---

Well, obviously I don't believe EVERYTHING "pertaining to a god is completely absurd, ridiculous and of circular logic" as you put it. I only believe that's what dogmatic Christian beliefs are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Ok, but you never answered my question. Do you think her statement was logically sound to you? Yes or no?

---

Well, technically yes. I DO believe she's been told that we were made in the image of God or Source. This is not to say that I believe we actually WERE made in the image of god.

Though to be even more technical about it, I can say that in a sense I DO believe were were made in the image of god. In the sense that, as I've said repeatedly (once on this thread, multiple times elsewhere) I believe what people call god is an archetypal form residing in the collective unconscious. Archetypes are patterns of thought that we all share in common, passed on to us from our parent's DNA. Just as the patterns of skeletal anatomy etc are passed down generation after generation, ensuring that we're all made to the same basic specifications anatomically. The same is true for our patterns of thought, at least the ones we call archetypes - they shape our thought processes and are identical form one person to another. So if these thought patterns are what I believe you're referring to when you say god, then yes, I suppose you could even say that I believe we are all created in the same image, and that image is god. However this god has nothing whatsoever to do with creating the universe or originating life, nor is it in any way omnipotent or omniscient. So it's not the same as what you mean when you say God. However it just occurred to me that what I call god certainly is responsible for laying down moral law. So there are many similarities, but it's not the same god, as you were hoping.

I believe this is the part you were hinging your argument on - the fact that she said "we were created in the image of god"? Well, there goes that argument!

Don't mistake me for Xei - I'm not going to argue incessantly with you. I know better than to try to force you to 'see the error of your ways'. You'll never agree with me and I'll never agree with you, and I know that.

Thanks to this little discussion I have gained some deeper insight into my ideas on this subject - I had never thought before about the 'image of god' as DNA imprinting (or whatever it's called) until tonight. But as soon as I feel like we're banging our heads on that old familiar brick wall I'm calling it quits - there's no point in fighting an unwinnable fight that nobody can benefit from. And I think all you're really trying to do here is pin me down on a technicality - because maybe I made an error in wording or something.

And to be clear - I am an atheist in the sense that I believe what people mean when they say god is nothing supernatural - I believe it's entirely psychological.

Darkmatters you've made so many contradictions within your last few posts I don't even know where to begin with dissecting all of your nonsense. I wasn't looking for a wall of text, all I wanted was a simple yes or no answer and you still dodged around that. I did get a good laugh and I thank you for that. Especially on this part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

This is not to say that I believe we actually WERE made in the image of god.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I can say that in a sense I DO believe were were made in the image of god.

---

Dude, you're so confused you don't know what to believe. I'll leave you alone because this is waaaay to easy.

Wow!!! Darkmatter now I am blown away! Thank you for so elegantly explaining your perspective of my perspective. You have tapped into my experience and thought process beautifully! I am on a journey for truth and I'm opening myself to infinite possibilities as to not be boxed in and limited to what is already known. As for the God in the bible... I was raised catholic and have been a self proclaimed catholic drop-out after I did not follow through with Confirmation in the 10th grade. I felt as if I was not being told the whole story by the Church, it did not feel genuine. I didn't want to follow blindly to be excepted only to acquire a false sense of security. After 10th grade I didn't think much about the Church, God, or why I was here. Until December 10th 1999, I was 23, and my fiancé was killed in a car accident. I had a premonition or a feeling something was not right. I remember sitting in front of the TV watching Providence and looking at the stone wall of the fireplace. It was like a daydream or a vision of Josh in a hospital bed and me by his side. I then got up from the couch and called the hospital. I don't know what came over me but "I KNEW" something had happen. I called the wrong hospital. With in 15 minutes his grandfather called me and I dropped to my knees before he even said anything. I went to the hospital and spent the night by Josh's bedside just like the vision I saw on the fireplace wall. I got to spend one night with him saying my goodbyes and in the morning they turned off the machines and he was gone. This is a day I have just recently come to know as my Birthday. This was the day I started to question and ask why! It was the day I woke up! Many things happened after this event that I can not explain but I know to be true. Because of Josh I found my Soul and for that I am eternally grateful. I always knew what my Soul was. As a child I knew it as that part of me that knows I exist. The part that observes and knows it's self to be eternal. I just never made the connection of that feeling being my Soul. With out the experience above that shifted my perspective I may of never questioned my existence with such intensity.
Now, I am married with 2 beautiful little girls. I find myself learning about existence through observations. Children helped me to gain amazingly insightful multi-dimensional perspective. I find myself looking at the bible with new eyes as well. I have a hard time understanding or believing a lot of what is written but I am coming to realize that the bible to is perspective. I am in constant evolution changing my perspectives for a better upstanding of all that is.
I hope this bit of history helps to shed more light on the perspective I am coming from.
Darkmatter, I love the way you think! "I am an atheist in the sense that I believe what people mean when they say god is nothing supernatural - I believe it's entirely psychological." quote Darkmatter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Well, obviously I don't believe EVERYTHING "pertaining to a god is completely absurd, ridiculous and of circular logic" as you put it. I only believe that's what dogmatic Christian beliefs are.






I have gained some deeper insight into my ideas on this subject - I had never thought before about the 'image of god' as DNA imprinting (or whatever it's called) until tonight. But as .

---

I love this insight!! Thank you!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Darkmatters you've made so many contradictions within your last few posts I don't even know where to begin with dissecting all of your nonsense. I wasn't looking for a wall of text, all I wanted was a simple yes or no answer and you still dodged around that. I did get a good laugh and I thank you for that. Especially on this part.

Dude, you're so confused you don't know what to believe. I'll leave you alone because this is waaaay to easy.

---

@ Ne-yo (tl;dr version is bolded):

Come on Ne-yo. You're an intelligent person (as long as your thinking isn't restricted by dogma) - I refuse to believe you really don't understand what I said. I didn't contradict myself - keep in mind the god I'm talking about is not the God of the Bible (note capitalization). I'm saying that as human beings we are all made (psychologically - not physically) in a pre-formed pattern that's encoded into our DNA. Since I identified this pattern as an archetype that people have called God (and I refer to as god, no capital) then it is in a sense correct to say that we are made in the image of god (not God).

I know you didn't ask for a wall of text - I had some insight that I thought was valuable enough to record and explore further in writing - and for that I thank you for challenging me to think deeper about my beliefs. It's only fairly recently that I've learned much about the collective unconscious and archetypes, and I hadn't really thought much about how it relates to god. Your post made me do that.

It's clear to see that the Greek and Roman gods are archetypes - they each seem to represent some definite part of the psyche (love, war etc). Some of them do anyway - I won't go farther than to say that. But it's harder to understand how the Abrahamic God could represent a single archetype. It seems that the Abrahamic God isn't really a direct representation of any single archetype or group of them - it's more complex than that - it's as if all the relevant archetypes have been collected and then divided arbitrarily into Good and Evil.

@ lidybug:

Thank you for sharing that! I've now googled images of Dominical and it's an amazingly beautiful place!!! It seems like a person can certainly feel close to god there, whatever god means to them. I'm glad we're getting to know each other better through this thread, and I'm glad to find out I was right that you're an explorer of the true nature of human nature and the soul (again, whatever that word means to you). People usually assume that if you believe god is 'just' a part of the human mind, that it diminishes his power or divinity. I don't think it does. If it truly is an archetype or a collection of them, then it's by far one of the most powerful and numinous experiences a person can ever encounter. Archetypes are transformative - they appear to us in dreams or visions in times of crisis or great change. They have the power to bring extreme change to our lives or to kill if we refuse to acknowledge them and the message they carry.

Looking forward to more conversations with you!

I like the way both of you think, DM & LB :)

It's so common for strange ideas to be met with default hostility. To do the opposite and meet a strange idea by first entertaining it... that is a rare thing, anyplace I've ever seen.

I like the way lidybug thinks also, not sure if I can say the same for Darkmatters. It's hard to find any real truth in what he speaks. In one thread he calls the Bible a logical fallacy in another thread he says the Bible is one of the most powerful examinations of nature and human nature and meaning. He doesn't appear very truthful to himself so I don't really expect him to be truthful to anyone else.

I think he was pretty clear with this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

...to search for meaning that's actually meaningful to us today rather than might have been meaningful to a primitive Hebrew tribe millenia ago and has since been crystallized and politicized to the point that even the original meaning is lost now.

---

A version of this thought probably got transmitted in a way that you interprited as "the Bible a logical fallacy" in whatever you are referring to. It's a delicate process to separate out the bad from the good in religion, sometimes attempts to hold some aspects as worth keeping or worth throwing out can seem like generalizations. I think it's best to assume dishonesty only as a last resort in theoretical discussions, it's much more often the case that you are misinterpriting what is being said.

You keep asking for a digital yes/no answer to a neuanced topic. It's not going to come.

What about:

"All points of truth are views.."

??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IndieAnthias

A version of this thought probably got transmitted in a way that you interprited as "the Bible a logical fallacy" in whatever you are referring to

---

Not sure how you've analyzed it as such or maybe you didn't actually read what I previously posted. I think I made it very clear when I stated in the above post that he made the statement, the Bible was a logical fallacy, in another thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IndieAnthias

You keep asking for a digital yes/no answer to a neuanced topic. It's not going to come.

---

I only asked for a yes or no answer 'once' I'm not sure where you've gotten the "keep asking for a digital yes/no answer" from.

All I'm saying is that it if his words seem to contradict each other, it is more likely that the communication is flawed or misinterprited, and less likely that his actual thoughts contradict one another. Sometimes things get taken as generalizations that aren't intended as such.

But I shouldn't have started speaking for other people in the first place and now this is getting past my comfort level, so I'll shut up about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneiro

What about:

"All points of truth are views.."

??

---

I dunno, what about truths unknown? Or truths that are sounds?

I guarantee you I have never used the term 'logical fallacy'. However, when I first arrived on this board my views were different from what they are now - I was on the same boat with the Strong Atheists, and my thinking at that time was influenced mainly by Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan. And yes, I'm sure at that time I may have made some statements belittling god or the bible in a way that I wouldn't do now. I've grown - largely thanks to viewpoints I was exposed to here on the board, from a flat denial of any value to be found in Christianity to a more nuanced view which recognizes its virtues while still aware of its inherent weaknesses.

I moved on from Dawkins to Jung, who of course is far more forgiving to religion and to Christianity. So it's true, if you contrast things I said a few years ago to things I've said more recently I'm sure you can find some discrepancies. To a person whose views never change that can be seen as a weakness to be exploited, but actually it shows growth and the willingness to explore viewpoints I may have failed to give full credence to yet. Without this kind of change and self-exploration we cannot grow to our full potential. I thank Juroara for showing me the error of my earlier thinking, which was polarized and oversimplified. I was caught in the trap of dualisitc thinking, which is linked with immaturity. A truly mature thinker is able to reconcile seemingly opposed viewpoints and balance them rather than separating them and choosing one side from which to attack the other.

No one's attacking you Darkmatters if you're that sensitive to my comments you wouldn't be able to take half the comments most atheist on this board has dished out to theist. However, that's besides the point. I was actually referring to something far more recent than a few years ago. What I'm talking about is within the last couple of months. On the other hand, if you're views has changed within the last couple of months then I extend my apologies to you and I'll admit that I was wrong in my thinking of you.

Oh you may well be right - I'll freely admit I sometimes slip back into my old ways of thinking and it's a lot easier and more fun to choose a side and fight for it than to always try to be all open-minded and try to encompass both extremes. I did post that circular thinking meme recently out of frustration, and that was kind of low. I definitely have my bad days when I'll let something get on my nerves and respond with less than exemplary tact. I have never used the term 'logical fallacy' - that sounds like something Xei or Mario or somebody more science-oriented might have said, though I may well have expressed the same attitude in different words.

This thread is SO rich! I've been thinking about " The bible being (a) Logical Fallacy" and how this could relate to the bible in my own mind. Something seen as logical to one person may not be logical to another. Perhaps the bible is a logical fallacy if perceived by a mind or a perspective but when we expand our mind to encompass many perspectives then the bible begins to take on a different interpretation, this has been my experience. This thought brought me to what Oneiro posted "All points of truth are views". That statement I find to hold Soul truth.
Darkmatter Quote :"People usually assume that if you believe god is 'just' a part of the human mind, that it diminishes his power or divinity. I don't think it does."
I never thought of this before but I see the truth in it. Isn't it amazing that people don't recognize their own divinity! I believe we are all divine, wether we agree with each other, or have inner conflict with ourselves. We all have the divine will with in us to create our environment through our belief and imagination. Darkmatter, I know you can relate to that on many levels especially with your ability to create multiple realities in your puppet theatre stopmotion animation.
Archetypes have been coming to me all over the place. I just recently started to learn about them as well and the role they play in our lives. It's fascinating. I am remembering doodles on paper from my childhood, and also paying attention to the lessons I receive in my dreams and in my waking life from these amazing symbols.
Ne-Yo,
You are playing an extremely important role from my perspective in this thread. You are making things a bit uncomfortable but I welcome that with enthusiasm and thank you for forcing everyone to reflect and understand and discover more about what they truly believe. I learn so much from people like you, even though it has taken discipline to process and respond from a place of gratitude for what you have forced me to see. So, thank you again from my heart and I hope you too are questioning why you believe what you believe and evolving into a better you.
I think we forget that we are Divine because as we grow we think that what is in the past is less then... but with out it we could not be who we are now. With out all perspectives we are lacking but no less Divine. When I learned to open my mind to all perspectives being truth is when I realized my own Divinity.

IndieAnthias,
Eloquently stated. Thank you for your insight!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lidybug

.. what StonedApe posted "All points of truth are views".

---

:(

"All points of truth are views."

Hoist by my own petard. :? :D

I'm sorry Oneiro, I will edit my previous post! Thank you.

No lidybug.. don't edit! It's quite funny.. :D

One of those "knock of the spirit"-type things.. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I did post that circular thinking meme recently out of frustration, and that was kind of low. I definitely have my bad days when I'll let something get on my nerves and respond with less than exemplary tact. I have never used the term 'logical fallacy' - that sounds like something Xei or Mario or somebody more science-oriented might have said, though I may well have expressed the same attitude in different words.

---

Yup, that's exactly what I was referring to. Anyway I've been looking through my last few post in this thread and I've come to terms that I shouldn't have called you out like I did. You're a cool guy and you didn't really deserve that so I apologize to you Darkmatters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lidybug

This thread is SO rich! I've been thinking about " The bible being (a) Logical Fallacy" and how this could relate to the bible in my own mind. Something seen as logical to one person may not be logical to another. Perhaps the bible is a logical fallacy if perceived by a mind or a perspective but when we expand our mind to encompass many perspectives then the bible begins to take on a different interpretation, this has been my experience. This thought brought me to what Oneiro posted "All points of truth are views". That statement I find to hold Soul truth.
Darkmatter Quote :"People usually assume that if you believe god is 'just' a part of the human mind, that it diminishes his power or divinity. I don't think it does."
I never thought of this before but I see the truth in it. Isn't it amazing that people don't recognize their own divinity! I believe we are all divine, wether we agree with each other, or have inner conflict with ourselves. We all have the divine will with in us to create our environment through our belief and imagination. Darkmatter, I know you can relate to that on many levels especially with your ability to create multiple realities in your puppet theatre stopmotion animation.
Archetypes have been coming to me all over the place. I just recently started to learn about them as well and the role they play in our lives. It's fascinating. I am remembering doodles on paper from my childhood, and also paying attention to the lessons I receive in my dreams and in my waking life from these amazing symbols.
Ne-Yo,
You are playing an extremely important role from my perspective in this thread. You are making things a bit uncomfortable but I welcome that with enthusiasm and thank you for forcing everyone to reflect and understand and discover more about what they truly believe. I learn so much from people like you, even though it has taken discipline to process and respond from a place of gratitude for what you have forced me to see. So, thank you again from my heart and I hope you too are questioning why you believe what you believe and evolving into a better you.
I think we forget that we are Divine because as we grow we think that what is in the past is less then... but with out it we could not be who we are now. With out all perspectives we are lacking but no less Divine. When I learned to open my mind to all perspectives being truth is when I realized my own Divinity.

---

Lidybug those were very inspiring words and I had to do a double-take on your post because you remind me of Switch (a member of this forum) You have a big heart and if I made you uncomfortable I extend my apologies to you as well. There's a ton more that I would like to say here and perhaps I'll continue it later but as for now my little angel's recital is approaching and I gotta run :) Thanks again for your kind words.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

...but as for now my little angel's recital is approaching and I gotta run....

---

I soooo just misread that as 'my angel's reticule is approaching', and imagined that you operated under scrutiny of an imaginary sniper in the clouds :cackle:

enjoy the show, ne-yo :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Yup, that's exactly what I was referring to. Anyway I've been looking through my last few post in this thread and I've come to terms that I shouldn't have called you out like I did. You're a cool guy and you didn't really deserve that so I apologize to you Darkmatters.

---

Alright - we're cool. Can't say I really blame you though - I have said a few uncool things to you before. But hey, at least you grasp that there's an S at the end of my name - I'm waiting for lidybug to learn that.. :cheeky: (I have now learned that her name is spelled with no capitals)

LOL! Wow that totally changes everything!! Darkmatters... yes it does! Thank you for pointing that out! :cheeky:

Here's one. I like to take some liberties with creation myths, and guess at what they might mean based on evolutionary theory.

It's not such a stretch. Imagine you're asleep, (not dreaming), that you've been sleeping all your life. When you wake up, as your eyes open for the first time and the world fades into view, it is indistinguishable from creation. There is nothing around to suggest that anything is the way it was a few moments ago. There are other people around, but they've all woken up at the exact same moment as you have. There is nothing to discuss about what came before, obviously these other people were just now created, as you and the world were, and there no cause to suspect otherwise. You're all naked in the wilderness, no human artifacts except yourselves.

Now that we have this idea, let's return to reality, and look at life on a much grander scale. Say what you will about consciousness and speculate about it's nature, there is one thing we know for sure about it. Like any other human capacity, it evolved. This means that it unfolded form nothing to the version we experience over the course of probably something like half a billion years (from the time nervous systems started to get sophisticated).

Each organism 'wakes up' anew without memory of the evolution of consciousness. But if DNA retains the record of our evolutionary history (which it does), what if the evolution of consciousness is in one of those deep vaults in the brain somewhere? (oh weed.... thank you for these ideas....) What if one could experience the evolution of consciousness itself, in time-lapse?

So I like to read Genesis 1, not as a creation myth and a misconception, but as the story of consciousness unfolding to the world (the 'waking up' story at the top). That's probably a more accurate way of thinking about how the story came about, actually. Not stretching back to our invertebrate ancestors obviously, but possibly to our early hominid ancestors that developed language.

I've thought EXACTLY the same thing!!! The moment when human consciousness dawned is the moment of the creation of Man, and also of the World, the Universe, and Animals etc. At least it's when all those things were created in our human awareness, and what else matters from a human perspective? As Adam (figuratively speaking, meaning Man) named everything, that's when those things came into our awareness.

:content: that's so cool, we think alike in some strange ways it seems.

@lidybug - it's also fun if you reverse the order of the words:

"Truth are view of points all."

..and the anagrams:

"Pilot vows earth rut finale.."

Armageddon outta here and all that..

We have arrived, and it is now that we perform our charge.

In fealty to IceDawg, our undying lord, and by the grace of the Golden Throne...

I declare Exterminatus upon the thread "all points of view are truth". I hereby sign the death warrant of an entire thread, and consign a billion souls to oblivion.

May Imperial Justice account in all balance.


Icedawg protects.

I love your post IndieAnthias! I was in a meeting today with a healer from Isreal that was explaining what he understands about DNA and spirituality. He says that DNA is the language of the Alphabet. Meaning that all creation is made from the vibration of sound. Each letter in our name represents a step in a ladder of frequency to heaven or Source. Our DNA is a combination of vibrations that hold the key to experiencing source. Our names unlock our Divinity. A few months back i started to think a lot about names and how people I know really do seem to live up to what their names mean. Today I found out that each one of our names has a much deeper meaning because each letter holds a message. The lecture was fascinating. He was saying that our throats or vocal cords are the bridge to Source. When we learn to change our state of being with the vibration we express from our vocal cords then we will evolve to the higher consciousness that mother earth is going through in 2012.
Another interesting part of meeting this man was a few nights before I met him I had a dream. In the dream I was in a group (a group that seems to keep reappearing in my dreams). My friend E was sitting in the circle and I was sitting in front of him. A male figure, I don't remember what he looked like, was there to share information. A silver box was in the center of the circle and the male figure said "If a voice where to come out of that box would you believe it to be God?". During the meeting the dreams meaning became much clearer. E had brought this man to the meeting (in waking life) and I was sitting opposite the male figure just like in my dream. I had no idea before the meeting that we where going to be doing "voice box work" or talking about how our vibrations we create through our voice are our bridge to Source. So to answer the question in my dream.... Yes, I do believe the voice that comes out of the box to be that of God, Source, or Divine. Another confirmation that my dreams are multi dimensional and helping me to understand how all this is connected.
I have read Genesis 1 many times and always have new insights and perspectives. It's also interesting that you mentioned Story. This man Oded was explaining how we all have a story and to understand consciousness we need to step out of our story. He was also saying that there r many drugs that can do this but the most profound experiences have always been with out the aid of drugs.

Carousoul, Could you please explain further where you are coming from.

Oneiro,
Wow, you have given this much thought and I find it all interesting. I have never been very good at rearranging letters to get alternative meanings.. I like what u have found. What do you think of what u have discovered? Is this something you do often, play with letters?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lidybug

What do you think of what u have discovered?

---

I'm thinking about the next one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lidybug

Is this something you do often, play with letters?

---

Yes.. I love linguistics, text manipulation, phonetics, jokes therefrom etc.

Apropos IndieAnthias' remarks on creation myths and playing around with them to try to find parallels in evolution/science and your response thereto, I'm going to have to start another thread..

Not sure which forum to stick it in, though.. and it's going to take preparation.. possible text images and other stuff..

All the best. :)

Or:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lidybug

.. often play? Letters?

---

Yes. Yes. :)

[Off - ON - Pulse - Wave] - creation myths - parallels - science/evolution - start thread - forum? - time..

Oneiro, please let me know when you post this I would love to read it! :)

This is what happens when you believe that all points of view are truth.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f37/boy-di...dicine-125904/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StonedApe

This is what happens when you believe that all points of view are truth.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f37/boy-di...dicine-125904/

---

That's a good example of someone who thought only their point of view was truth.

Is their point of view truth? I guess you have a point though, they didn't think that the scientific viewpoint was true.

Has anybody pointed out that in most situations where it's used "truth" is just a metaphysical assumption and has no grounding in concrete reality? Fun to argue about though...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StonedApe

Is their point of view truth? I guess you have a point though, they didn't think that the scientific viewpoint was true.

---

Could this be a "2 sides of the same coin" situation? I do see your point as well. I can't condone whatever they were thinking that led to such a horrible thing being done. This reminds me of a similar argument I've had before about the virtues of open-mindedness. Can't remember much of what was said, but it was a lot like this, lol. I do remember concluding that such positions as we've taken were 2 sides of the same coin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

.. most situations.. "truth" .. has no grounding in concrete reality.

---

..and there was me thinking that "truth" was "concrete reality"..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Fun to argue about though...

---

Well, that's the truth..

Ne-yo,
How was your little angel's recital? I was in the hospital with my little one when I read your post. All is well, we have learned that she has extreme allergies to dairy and sugars.
There is no need for an apology about your posts, but I thank you. I am looking forward to more of your thoughts. I have a few more idea's that keep evolving in my brain. I am looking forward to posting them after I clean up after my little ones.
Happy Holidays to Everyone!!!

Oneiro, have you researched the meaning of individual letters? From my understanding in Hebrew every letter has a meaning beyond it function in a word as a whole, making each word multi dimensional in its meaning and origin. Does anyone else have insight into this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneiro

..and there was me thinking that "truth" was "concrete reality"..



Well, that's the truth..

---

I find it interesting that you had to clip out so much to make your point. Wait a minute. What's your point?

My mind has been traveling all over the place today! So here we go another pondering of my mind...
When I was a child in middle school I remember talking to a teacher about the possibility of time travel. I remember feeling like I understood how it worked having something to do with time and space, but later forgot all about this conversation and that I even thought it was a possibility. Today I was spending time in my garden trying to recharge myself because I have felt scattered and like the magic had left me. Just being outside brings me back to center. I was standing there in the garden admiring the beauty of all the life from the plants to the insects. I remembered about a year ago seeing 40 or so flecks of light like glitter floating around me while I was making my bed. I tried to focus on them but as I did they disappeared, this lasted maybe 15 seconds. A few weeks later I was in my bathroom getting ready for a shower and it happened again. As these lights floated around me I remembered right away and tried to focus on them, they were specks of light. I could not believe I was REALLY seeing this. As I would reach out to touch one it would disappear. Today I thought of those specks of light and the conversation in middle school about time travel, at the same time. So many thoughts came flooding in and writing this now is helping to see it more clearly. I suddenly understood the speck of light as a sun, a life force, a universe all seemingly in my reach. This is when the thought of space and time came in. In comparison to the "speck of light" I seem almost infinitely larger. The light from the speck may of been hundreds of light years away. My mass is what determines the time it takes to travel in space to the related object. This is why when I reached out to touch it it disappeared because perhaps I was witnessing the light of a burning star light years away from within.

All perspectives are truth.
Once again I'm having a lot of fun exploring these thoughts!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lidybug

Carousoul, Could you please explain further where you are coming from.

---

The Seven Circles of my Father's Palace Gardens.

The seven faces of Eve

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lidybug

The seven faces of Eve

---

A leper god.

to know Mercy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

I find it interesting that you had to clip out so much to make your point.

---

I had to.. there was a lot of fluffspeak that wasn't needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Wait a minute. What's your point?

---

Well, that's one..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneiro

I had to.. there was a lot of fluffspeak that wasn't needed.

Well, that's one..

---

So your point is that you're incapable of communicating clearly? Or do you disagree that the most accurate definition of truth is "whatever I happen to believe"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

So your point is that you're incapable of communicating clearly?

---

No. That's you. One point was to get wall-of-texters to cut out the fluff..

..and looky here! You actually did it.

See.. if you can't concisely and succinctly make your point, then there's something wrong. Some (c. 90% males) write too much.

Just my opinion.

Hmmm. You seem not to have addressed a single point made in my post or any point actually leading from it. So again. What's your point? If you provide a point, I may well respond with a wall of text if that's what it takes to communicate it. Sorry if you have trouble reading. Guess you could use the practice.

Listen.. sometimes you just gotta take it up the a**e, okay?

Prevarication and deflection?

Get over it.

*emoticon*

So you don't actually have a point? You're just heckling me? Do you feel clever?

Alright back onto topic. The video is relevant from 13:50 onwards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_qBIw7qyHU