Is religion is one of the worst lows of civilization?

[Tsen]

[b][MODERATION] Posts that had to be split from previous topic of Civilization's Highs and Lows Originally posted by tsen I figure you'll all want explanation on Religion. Now, I'm not talking about a specific religion, just religion in general. After all, I am religious as well. Throughout history, the vast majority of religions have been created to achieve power or influence over the masses, not because of some divine entity's commandments. Look at England, where Henry VIII created his own church because he wanted a divorce but wasn't allowed one under his current religion's principles. Or the old Catholic church, which has been a beacon of corruption. After all, look at the Crusades! I mean, the \"Noble\" knights under the leadership of the old Catholic church raped, pillaged, murdered and destroyed. There are tales of priests cheering warriors on as they fornicated women in plundered villages. All under the unassailable banner of religion. Now, note that I said the OLD Catholic church. The new Catholic church is, with the exception of a few corrupt followers (a problem in any modern institution), a good and noble organization. But that isn't to say that all modern churches are still noble. Look to the Middle East. I'm not saying that the Muslims are bad, either, but there is an increasingly larger extremist Muslim cult spreading and seperating from the mainstream Islamic church. These extremist Muslims are the very definition of corruption. A few people in power are commanding their 'followers' to go and blow themselves to hell with the promise of reward in heaven, or even offers to pay the family of such 'Martyrs' large sums of money. It's just a nerve grating prospect to me that even today we have much corruption under the flag of 'religion'. Don't get me wrong, it's not nearly as bad as it was, but it still shames me that people can be corrupt enough to claim power under the pretense of some divine order. Or that the masses are ignorant to follow blindly. Originally posted by syzygy Oh come on, in that case you should get rid of science too because we have used it for mass destruction. Its not because of religion that people use it for the wrong reasons. [b][/MODERATION] Yes, I know I shouldn't hold the misdeeds of corrupt religious fanatics over the heads of other, good religious people. Which is why I specifically noted things like "Old Catholic church" and "Extremist Muslims," specifically seperating them from the herd. Perhaps I should have rephrased it to be "corrupt religion," but I think it's better as is. I mean, I personally have a hard time with most any religion because of the mindset present among many that they are "a chosen people," or the "one true church". Mind you, I'm not saying that they aren't the true church, but they're pretty much saying to me "Your opinion is irrelevant because MY WAY IS THE ONLY PATH TO SALVATION!" Personally, I believe that anybody who lives a good life, avoiding unecessary conflict and trying to leave people better off, while never being boastful of his own opinion will be accepted into heaven regardless of religion. Otherwise, we have a very corrupt and power-loving God.

[Cole5250]

Blah.

[Tsen]

Okay, I'll try to keep this brief: I don't believe that all people are evil. Evil is in the conscious decisions and desires of the human mind, and it is not by any means present in all people. There are people on this world, past and present, that could not be called evil by any definition of the word. Now, if you go pulling that "Original Sin" junk on me, that's another thing that ticks me off. Why the hell should we be punished for something somebody else did? And if we were held accountable for it, would that make the God enforcing such a regulation a just and fair ruler? I don't think so. I mean, it's like, "Sorry, we can't let you into heaven. It's not your fault or anything, I mean, you did everything that anybody could have asked of you, you cured cancer, fed the poor and adopted 12 orphans, but you never really acknowledged that I died to redeem whatever few sins you might have had. I mean, I know that if you would have known what I'd gone through for you, you would have been grateful, but you just didn't ever get the chance to hear the true gospel. I guess you're outta luck!" Okay, I'll sum it all up: 1-If we shouldn't all be granted eternal paradise because we weren't capable of being perfect, does that entitle us to eternal hell? That seems to be what you're implying. 2-So if he died for somebody, who, with the exception of a few minor slips, as we are all prone to, lived a good and pure life, but was never introduced to the 'true gospel,' they're instantly damned to hell, simply because they never had the chance to know that he'd died for their sins? 3-And finally, so all I have to do to be accepted into heaven is accept Christ? Because that's how you're making it sound. If that's all it hinges on, it sounds rather corrupt. There are MILLIONS of people in this world who aren't Christian but live MUCH better lives and do much more for the common good than most any Christian. So even though they did more work for their fellow man, and honestly cared for others, they're not to be allowed into heaven, while others who did MUCH less are let in, and all because they never knew that Christ died for them? Heh...sorry 'bout my little interruption. Everybody can get back on topic now, I'll leave quietly.

[InTheMoment]

Cole wrote: <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE 1st - Why should evil creatures like us (and we are ALL evil) deserve an eternal paradise? 2nd - If someone VERY good died for us to cover up the evil shouldnt we at least believe in him? 3rd - Well thats christianity for you, so im done. [/b] [/b][/quote] And what of the mentally handicapp, whom may never grasp the concept of religion, what about their souls? (hypothetically speaking of course, being I don't believe in souls) PS - maybe a mod could split this into the appropiate forum. Edit to add - Thanks Placebo...also you might want to remove the second "is" in the title to have it read better

[Placebo]

Originally posted by InTheMoment PS - maybe a mod could split this into the appropiate forum. Done, although I wasn't sure what to do with the posts that needed splitting, so I added it to the first post in this thread. Should be okay BTW, PM me if I chose a pathetic topic name

[CatLover]

Welll... see, religion is really hard to choose, because believe it or not, EVERY religion thinks their's is better. Personally? I don't have a religion. No, damn it, I'm not gothic, and I have nothing against people who are gothic. Religion is very hard to choose, I made my life a little easier by not making myself choose one right now, I have other things to think about... *hides in corner for fear of heavy objects being thrown*

[psychedelic]

Originally posted by Tsen+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tsen)</div> - - will be accepted into heaven - - [/b] Regardless of one's beliefs (also one's religion), one still goes to heaven? Wouldn't that be claiming the heaven-orientated religion (all of them) to be the One And Only and the Right One(s)? <!--QuoteBegin-Tsen - - Otherwise, we have a very corrupt and power-loving God. - - I indeed do not feel like getting into a discussion over \"does or does not a god / the gods exist\". There are other threads for these kinds of conversations. Originally posted by Cole5250 - - If someone VERY good died for us to cover up the evil shouldnt we at least believe in him? - - - - \"if he died for us why would he care about something so small about our beliefs?\" - - There has been no other evidence of someone dying, in order to \"cover up the evil\", than in a mostly fictional and allegorical piece of writing which most people tend to use for making even their simplest choices in order not to think by their own - the bible. Supposing that the god created the world with all the goods and bads, he also created choices for us, and not for just pastime but for the people to CHOOSE. A religious person might say that he created them for us to \"choose the right one which he set for us\", but look at all those religions, every religion in fact, claiming to be \"the right ways\" and \"the only paths\". Originally posted by CatLover+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CatLover)</div> - - Welll... see, religion is really hard to choose, because believe it or not, EVERY religion thinks their's is better. - - [/b] Indeed. But let me suggest an alternative option - choosing NO religion at all. Because, after all, religions might seem different from the outside, though they are all the same inside, created in order to provide us with an illusion of free choice - a choice to choose between pre-set sets of beliefs and values instead of encouraging us to create our own. <!--QuoteBegin-The Title Is religion is one of the worst lows of civilization? In short words, yes.

[syzygy]

Originally posted by Tsen Yes, I know I shouldn't hold the misdeeds of corrupt religious fanatics over the heads of other, good religious people. Which is why I specifically noted things like \"Old Catholic church\" and \"Extremist Muslims,\" specifically seperating them from the herd. Perhaps I should have rephrased it to be \"corrupt religion,\" but I think it's better as is. I understand your distinction, but I'm saying its not the religion that makes them do horrible things, which becomes immediately obvious when you make a distinction such as you did. Its not the religion, it is what people do with the religion. That's why I say you have to put science down there too. In and of itself it is neither good or bad, it is what you do with it. Originally posted by Tsen I mean, I personally have a hard time with most any religion because of the mindset present among many that they are \"a chosen people,\" or the \"one true church\". You say it right here, it is because of the mindset of the many, not the religion. Sure the religion allows for that particular mindset, but they don't have to accept it. Originally posted by Tsen Mind you, I'm not saying that they aren't the true church, but they're pretty much saying to me \"Your opinion is irrelevant because MY WAY IS THE ONLY PATH TO SALVATION!\" Anyone who says that to you doesn't know what they are talking about. Spirituality can only be a personal path, everyone's is different.

[CatLover]

Originally posted by psychedelic+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychedelic)</div> Indeed. But let me suggest an alternative option - choosing NO religion at all. Because, after all, religions might seem different from the outside, though they are all the same inside, created in order to provide us with an illusion of free choice - a choice to choose between pre-set sets of beliefs and values instead of encouraging us to create our own. [/b] *cough* <!--QuoteBegin-CatLover Personally? I don't have a religion. Also, religions are very different on the inside. Maybe the same in their goals, like you said, and why they were created, like you said, but their beliefs are VERY different. One of my ex-religions believed that Jesus didn't die on a cross, now tell me, is that the same as regular Christian religions? And what about Buddhism. Heh, just pointing that out.

[AirRick101]

Well, for the record, in my exp as a Christian, I didn't care to think the status of other religions. I just knew I enjoyed it, and had no intention of appearing superior. That, my friends, is reserved for whatever skills and abilities I hold that exceed others! Philosophy should be integrated with any religion. This will help some things appear more clearly, and to respect the similarities among religions. And you don't have to be just one, you could have your own self-formulated "mutt" religion, kind of like Lucius. But the theory of being let into heaven because you're being good strikes me as skeptical. Karma and recompensation, yes, not sure about heaven, that's not up to "us." not sure exactly why, because I grew up believing that it wasn't good works that saved us. But you have to understand, accepting Christ is a soul-shifting experience, not just having a name. It's personality changing, and adds accountability to one's life. And yet, nothing goes by God unnoticed.

[syzygy]

Originally posted by CatLover Also, religions are very different on the inside. Maybe the same in their goals, like you said, and why they were created, like you said, but their beliefs are VERY different. One of my ex-religions believed that Jesus didn't die on a cross, now tell me, is that the same as regular Christian religions? And what about Buddhism. Heh, just pointing that out. Actually they are all essentially the same "on the inside", they only appear different in their "outward" manifestations, although most people don't realize this. And technically Buddhism is not a religion, it is more like an education, or a reworking of the mind. But again, essentially it is the same "on the inside".

[Lucius]

Just love and accept. Just surrender and let go. Let go of absolute truth. There, simple as that That's my religion right there. (well, sorta =P) ^_^ Religion can be a very beautiful something, just as it can cause misery alike..if only people would just take love as the primary value, and their religious believes as secondary (though love is actually what is preached as a primary value by many religions)...

[Tsen]

I fully agree with Lucius. Religion is insignificant when compared to simple values and decency. Striving to be agreeable and caring is the most important thing.

[AirRick101]

It could just be my experience. Some people I know who claim to be "self-reliant" or "non-religious" are assholes underneath. I hope it's still possible. But my neighbor and his mom who say to follow the Dalai Lama "My religion is kindness" is bs, they yell and scream all the time with the whole family, total bs. I'm not advocating religion, per se, but sometimes, believing in God can help. If there were no God, and just us humans, all good deeds are eventually vain, and it's depressing. With hope in God (or something bigger), you can count on exponential and lasting good. But letting go of absolute truth is essential, I find also. Trying to explain truth in words is stupid, never has been done, and never will. Why are debates still going on? It's all about what side you feel is best for you, not which one is the winning argument. Plus, the motivation of argument is usually not to find the truth, the more you argue, the more you solidfy your loyalty to your point. Unless one is humble enough, it's impossible to change that.

[Lucius]

Originally posted by AirRick101 It could just be my experience. Some people I know who claim to be \"self-reliant\" or \"non-religious\" are assholes underneath. I hope it's still possible. But my neighbor and his mom who say to follow the Dalai Lama \"My religion is kindness\" is bs, they yell and scream all the time with the whole family, total bs. I'm not advocating religion, per se, but sometimes, believing in God can help. If there were no God, and just us humans, all good deeds are eventually vain, and it's depressing. With hope in God (or something bigger), you can count on exponential and lasting good. -I like the general idea the Dalai Lama preaches: a very wise, yet simple concept. Something that is closer to what 'religion' should really be in my idea. Yet I suppose people that claim to follow that 'religion' sometimes not always stick to it..but such hypocrisy can be found among many religions. Though I dont consider the Dalai lama's ideas to be a 'religion'. It would probably create the greatest harmony if all people would follow such a simple idea of kindness, compassion and acceptance and next to that would practise a personal religion/believe (or not religion at all). One they find themselves comfortable with, one they feel can enhance their lives. Not make up their lives. -I agree that believing in 'something greater beyond this world' (not necessarily the classic idea of 'God') can add a lot to life. One can never tell for sure but to me it is almost certain that there is more to life than just this. However, I will always put the simple value's of love, compassion, acceptance etc above those beliefs, like Tsen said We can't be sure of what lies beyond this life..but we can be sure that gentle love and compassion make life a better place for all beings ^_^

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Um, isn't the Dalai Lama Buddhist? As to the original question of the thread: no.

[Belisarius]

I don't think the problem is religon per se, but the intellectual stubborness which it all too often engenders. While clinging to illogic in the face of reason isn't a symptom only of religion, it is in religion where such attitudes are fostered and in religion where they are most powerful. Most religious people become so not through reason and analysis of ideas, but because of childhood indoctrination or emotional reactions to religious ideas. Indeed religion is propagated not by forcing converts to succumb to superior reasoning, but by proclaiming emotional slogans and battering the skeptic's will with the charisma of certain preachers. Religion also inspires a dangerous devotion to ideas easily manipulated. One needs only to look at Islamic suicide bombers to see the destructive ends to which preachers can manipulate their followers. The unquestioning servitude to the point of self-sacrifice exhibited by these extremists should disgust any free-thinking person. This unquestioning belief is easily manipulated by preachers and kings, to inspire the populace to acts that may even violate the very religious doctrines they claim to put their faith in. More often than not religious people do not put their faith in god, but in men. It is natural trust in parents that gives their word the ability to suspend reason and chanell the gullible minds of their children down the same path they once trod. Later, people look to other authority figures for the security of truth, in matters where noone on earth can guaruntee it. Religion is an important part of philosophy that needs to be looked at and considered in the same light as the other aspects, but religions and their institutions cause serious consideration of thsese issues to be disregarded in favor of dogma .

[justme]

religion is a funny thing, sometimes it can be good for a cilization sometimes bad, like a reliogn that encourges sleflessness is good for the goverment due to state of nature without it, and a reliogon that sacfirieces ppl to gods, well that encourges vilolence and of course death

[bradybaker]

In short, yes. Religion is the abandonment of rational thought.

[voidofform]

personally speaking, sometimes it nice to abandon rational thought (within a rational framework). i happen to get great comfort from my belief in my goddess and my angel. but i see people using organised religion (and patriotism too for that matter) as a means to avoid taking personal responsibility. e.g. a fundie muslim blow up a train: "i'm following the word of allah" or a b52 pilot drops bombs on a town: "i'm just following orders" or a politician stomps on the rights of a minority: "the bible says its unnatural" whatever. they are all hurting people. and they're trying to make excuses for their behaviour. hiding behind your religon or your country doesn't absolve you of a damned thing, sorry.

[Universal Mind]

I am an atheist. I love to debate religion with willing participants, but I am not out to convert anybody to atheism. I think that even though religion is the biggest problem in the world, it is also, paradoxically, necessary. It keeps a lot of people who would otherwise be really bad people in line. How many people have you seen make the point that religion is the only basis for morality? People who think like that are admitting that religion is the only thing that keeps them acting decent. I think people like that are common. I have seen a lot of people deal fairly well with death because of their religious beliefs. I have seen people talk about dying family members and then immediately start talking about God, looking relieved and hopeful. I have seen entire nursing homes singing Christian music while looking very serene, with the belief that they are about to spend eternity in a very happy and beautiful place. Unfortunately, religion is also what is behind the crazy situation my country is in right now, for many reasons. The Arab-Israeli conflict is a preposterous situation, and it is really screwing up the world. If God exists, does he want his children killing in mass numbers and royally screwing up his planet over who gets what gift from him? Disgusting.

[justme]

Originally posted by Universal Mind I think that even though religion is the biggest problem in the world, it is also, paradoxically, necessary. It keeps a lot of people who would otherwise be really bad people in line. How many people have you seen make the point that religion is the only basis for morality? People who think like that are admitting that religion is the only thing that keeps them acting decent. I think people like that are common. Thats a good point, but still i dont like ppl who have religon as there only tie to being dencent ppl. I also think, Im not saying that is is though, that some ppl use relgion just to have control over other ppl. Like in the eary europe times, the priest make up things like god tells u to give this much money to the church, or "You have comteted adulty u must give ten dollars to the church to be forgivein" "heres a 20$ cause im gonna do it agian." lol. anyways the point saying is that ppl like relgion because they want to have controll over other ppl! I went to this one school where almost all the adults were power hungury everything is evil all relgions are wroung except for mine, i mean those ppl pretty much think any chatolic or athesit or mormon or medoist (ya they were bicthing on my reliogn too) are all ppl who have no feeling and should be killed , they didnt say that of course but they really talked badly about other ppl, in other words... i think ppl today some like relgion because they want to controll other ppls life.