Everyone, stop being idiots.

[Seefu]

I'll start with theists. Theists, you need to understand that it is impossible to prove your God, gods, Goddess, goddesses, and such. This is because they are based on faith, which is impossible to prove, or, for that matter, disprove- (though how you're supposed to disprove something that doesn't exist puzzles me) so please, stop acting as if you can. Most atheists would leave you alone if you simply said, "Well, I believe in God, but I know there's no real proof for him." and not try to shovel 'facts' down our throats. Atheists: Shut up. Really, you are taking this much to seriously and obviously trying to start arguments. You protest to being smarter, and yet, you drag yourself down to their 'level', if you will. Leave theists be, and maybe they'll leave you be. I'm not denying that debates are fun- but make them friendly, and please, don't be an idiot.

[Serkat]

Atheists: Shut up. Really, you are taking this much to seriously and obviously trying to start arguments. You protest to being smarter, and yet, you drag yourself down to their 'level', if you will. Leave theists be, and maybe they'll leave you be. They won't. That's what the scripture says.

[Seefu]

They won't. That's what the scripture says. Not everyone is Christian. Though yes, their scripture does say to pester atheists, any moderate Christian knows that it is merely a book.

[Moonbeam]

Theists get offended if you disagree with them. They say you are not respecting their beliefs, whatever that means.

[Seefu]

Theists get offended if you disagree with them. They say you are not respecting their beliefs, whatever that means. Are you making excuses? Quaint. I'm not saying that all theists nor all atheists are idiots- but, most of the time, there is a personal insult on either side that starts a basic war. I can see why anyone would get offended. Take for example: You walk up to a man and say his mother is stupid. He probably gets mad, yes? The better thing to do would be to go up to him and say that records and test show that her IQ is below the common level. Which one works better?

[A Humble Sinner]

The first one. I would get angry at someone who's trying to pretend what he's saying isn't an insult. However, bad example aside, (there are so many more factors to think about in your example than in the situation) good for you for saying this, but you do realise nothing's going to change? I agree though - both sides are being very stupid - the theists because they cannot accept anything other than total agreement with their view and cannot reasonabley conced that they have no argument other than faith but say that "Hey, there really is no proof, but this is a personal, faith based thing and you cannot prove otherwise, so why try to upset me?". Instead they look for fights and try to force their beliefs down atheists' throats. The atheists behave no better. They cannot respect faith (while understandably they get more than a little annoyed at theists shoving "proof" down their throats and viciously attacking them with flames such as "you have small heads, stupid apes!") and, instead of leaving obvious bait or someone's private belief alone, they join the threads and argue that there is proof that theists are wrong. So when they go into threads that are sure to become cesspits and give the theists something to flame at, in my eyes this makes them just as guilty for encouraging flame-wars. And they aren't any less vicious than the theists. . . . When I say "theist" or "atheists" I mean the majority of atheists or theists that debate on these threads and exhibit the above characteristics.

[Seefu]

To be honest, I wish everyone would simply have their beliefs and not share them except in passing. Honestly, it's getting ridiculous.

[M-Cat]

Not everyone is Christian. Though yes, their scripture does say to pester atheists, any moderate Christian knows that it is merely a book. And Christianity isn't the only religion with a holy text. Really, you are taking this much to seriously and obviously trying to start arguments. And you're trying to tell people what to do. Leave theists be, and maybe they'll leave you be.

[CrimsonWolf]

You make some interesting and good points Seefu, but this was totally the wrong way to do it. It won't change anything and you're basically saying there is no need for the R/S board.

[Seefu]

And Christianity isn't the only religion with a holy text. And you're trying to tell people what to do. When did I suggest otherwise? Notice the word, 'their' signifying that it was directed towards the previous poster's comment about the Christian faith. It is, however, the dominant theistic religion on this board, so I felt I should point it out. I'm trying to tell people to be nice and play well, you fickle minded tool! =D You make some interesting and good points Seefu, but this was totally the wrong way to do it. It won't change anything and you're basically saying there is no need for the R/S board. You can discuss religion without arguing. And even when it comes down to arguing, there's no need for name-calling.

[Emerald Wolf]

If I were to wager a guess I would say the reason people can't discuss religious/spiritual issues in a polite manner is because they believe in their views so fervantly that they can't help but become frustrated when someone else fails to see things their way. I for one find it makes my blood boil when I know (although that word in itself is problematical), that someone is spouting utter rubbish (and I am in not refering to religious arguments with that statement btw).

[CrimsonWolf]

If I were to wager a guess I would say the reason people can't discuss religious/spiritual issues in a polite manner is because they believe in their views so fervantly that they can't help but become frustrated when someone else fails to see things their way. I for one find it makes my blood boil when I know (although that word in itself is problematical), that someone is spouting utter rubbish (and I am in not refering to religious arguments with that statement btw). Same here, and of course what one person thinks (especially in R/S) is rubbish, another probably believes wholeheartedly. That's why the board can never be without arguments which can, and in some cases will, lead to personal attacks.

[Seefu]

If I were to wager a guess I would say the reason people can't discuss religious/spiritual issues in a polite manner is because they believe in their views so fervantly that they can't help but become frustrated when someone else fails to see things their way. I for one find it makes my blood boil when I know (although that word in itself is problematical), that someone is spouting utter rubbish (and I am in not refering to religious arguments with that statement btw). I understand where you're coming from. Arguing is like an addiction- you keep wanting more, but you can stop with some hard work.

[Merlock]

You can't believe in something and not take offence when someone denies your beliefs. That's the whole point of belief or disbelief: they're two extremes. Only Sith deal in absolutes... Heh, well, it's true. Go, agnosticism!

[CrimsonWolf]

You can't believe in something and not take offence when someone denies your beliefs. That's the whole point of belief or disbelief: they're two extremes. Only Sith deal in absolutes... Heh, well, it's true. Go, agnosticism! Everthing always comes back to Star Wars

[Xaqaria]

I understand that you aren't trying to be insulting seefu, but you are in much the same way that most of the other atheists here are. This is most likely why things don't change; because the atheists who are the most insulting seem incapable of even understanding why what they say is insulting. By saying that atheists are dragging themselves down the theists level by getting into these petty arguments is insulting to the theists that don't believe they are at a lower level to begin with. Why must theists be debased in this way? Why must you assume that atheists are somehow smarter because of their decision on an unprovable subject? One way or the other, what you believe on this subject is based largely on conjecture and so neither stance is inherently more intelligent.

[Merlock]

One way or the other, what you believe on this subject is based largely on conjecture and so neither stance is inherently more intelligent. Indeed. This stance is so much better: Theists from one side, atheists from the other.... Indifference about the existence of deities can take both on at the same time! (And eventually get sliced in half by the roaming theists or marauding atheists...but still.) Hm, I guess everything does always come back to Star Wars.

[Seefu]

I understand that you aren't trying to be insulting seefu, but you are in much the same way that most of the other atheists here are. This is most likely why things don't change; because the atheists who are the most insulting seem incapable of even understanding why what they say is insulting. By saying that atheists are dragging themselves down the theists level by getting into these petty arguments is insulting to the theists that don't believe they are at a lower level to begin with. Why must theists be debased in this way? Why must you assume that atheists are somehow smarter because of their decision on an unprovable subject? One way or the other, what you believe on this subject is based largely on conjecture and so neither stance is inherently more intelligent. Oh, please, don't try to take some sort of hypothetical high ground when I'm trying to even it out. Notice how level was in quotation marks. From this board's atheist point of view, theists are a step down. I'm not saying they are, but this is the general consensus. I never have assumed atheists are smarter, this is because your theism is, essentially, unprovable, and you can't determine things about something you can't even observe. I'm disappointed that you are really bringing in such arguments into a thread precisely made to stop such drab. Don't you understand what you did in that post? You're, once more, only blaming atheists when the blame is on both. You're being extremely narrow-minded and foolish, good sir.

[M-Cat]

you can't determine things about something you can't even observe. Like your intelligence? And even when it comes down to arguing, there's no need for name-calling. you fickle minded tool! You're being extremely narrow-minded and foolish, good sir. Let's keep the hypocrisy and the immaturity down, Seefu. That's not the way we run things in DV. I'm trying to tell people to be nice and play well, Oh please. Stop trying to be patronizing, it doesn't work when no one takes you seriously.

[Mes Tarrant]

Hehe, really, I think the theists are getting a little too offended for their own good. I don't recall an atheist ever getting offended, unless it was by a personal attack from a pissed off theist. Can we please move on with our lives? Thanks.

[Xaqaria]

Indeed. This stance is so much better: Theists from one side, atheists from the other.... Indifference about the existence of deities can take both on at the same time! (And eventually get sliced in half by the roaming theists or marauding atheists...but still.) Hm, I guess everything does always come back to Star Wars. Truth be told, Merlock; the only reason why I am perceived as such a strong theist is because I tend to root for the underdog. More often than not, I'll argue whatever side is losing no matter what the topic. Thats not to say that I am in fact an atheist or anything like that though. I'm not a liar, I just agree with both sides of almost every issue to some degree.

[Seefu]

Like your intelligence? Let's keep the hypocrisy and the immaturity down, Seefu. That's not the way we run things in DV. Oh please. Stop trying to be patronizing, it doesn't work when no one takes you seriously. How convenient! You forgot to quote in the, =D smiley signifying I was kidding! It's as if you're pushing for your own point of view, hmm? Funny, even in the second I was being polite... I'm not going to be the first to say that all of us have problems and I did slip up. Speaking of seriousness- pointing out small errors is no way to prove a point.

[Seefu]

Hehe, really, I think the theists are getting a little too offended for their own good. I don't recall an atheist ever getting offended, unless it was by a personal attack from a pissed off theist. Can we please move on with our lives? Thanks. But isn't the personal attack usually because the atheist tossed a petty insult towards them? I find it happens like that.

[Timothy Paradox]

I believe that it doesn't matter what the name of your god is, or whether you believe in a god or not. I personally like to believe that God is a metaphor for the human ability to seperate right from wrong. I am an atheïst, but a very open-minded one. I AM gonna read the bible, but I am not gonna take everything in there literally. I think the ones who wrote it were very wise people who tried to show their beliefs (morality) to the world in the form of a book filled to the brim with stories. But these stories are full of messages. EVERYBODY knows that insulting people and killing and stuff like that is wrong. So why in the name of christ (even though I doubt he was literally the 'son of god' I think he was a respectable good and wise man) should we try to convince each other or fight each other?? One of gods gifts was (is) FREE WILL - think about that. Also, if he really exists (as an intelligent entity) you should know that he created us with the ability to think and question his own existence. I'm telling you, I was god, I'd be proud of those who doubt my existence. Respect, love and compassion - these things are universal, no matter in what you believe.

[A Humble Sinner]

I think your being a little hard on the guy. He can't explain himself, he's patronizing and he's boasting a wide knowledge of DV that he doesn't actually have, but go easy on him! He means well, and he's right - both atheists and theists are behaving like stupid children who deserve telling off. It's just that he can't explain himself and he's being really immature. By the way, I think you're being really, really immature! But the rest of you - stop swooping down on every one of the flaws in his argument like a pack of blood-crazed laywers about to win a case. A. It's MY job to be unbearably annoying about tiny flaws, and B. he doesn't really deserve it.