Christmas is a Scam.

[R.Carter]

As an atheist, Christmas doesn't mean anything to me. Even when I was a kid, still involved in the church, I thought about it more in terms of toys than the birth of Christ. Not being very materialistic now, I think the hoards of people that cram the malls and torture themselves and each other in the quest for the current trendy gadget are fooking insane. All the items that they're crapping themselves over will be there on January 25th too. Does it really matter if your kid has to wait until February for their X Box 360? Will the scarring of that traumatic Christmas morning sans game system plunge the child into a well of anguish and despair that only decades of therapy will correct? Of course not; and if it does, that kid needs to spend a little more time outside, IMHO. Anyway, my thought is this : What do the die hard theists on this forum think of the widespread commercial rape of the day assigned to be the celebration of the birth of the son of your God? Do you run out and buy gobs of shit like everyone else? Are there traditions you've set up in your families to preserve the sanctity of this blessed event? Do you teach your children that greed and gluttony are among the deadliest 7? Don't get me wrong; buying someone you care about a swell gift you know they'll love in the spirit of giving is great. Be it a TV or a scarf. It's the rabid materialism and the " outrageous debt = Christmas " mind set I've seen that I can't understand. So, Christmas is a scam. Sucking in consumers and theists alike. Now bring me a figgy pudding.

[Ex Nine]

Well, giving material things to someone isn't exactly rabid materialism. Because once you give it, you don't have it anymore.

[R.Carter]

Peeps trampling each other at a WalMart is, though. Same goes for waiting in a 12 hour line. Like I said, giving in the spirit of giving is cool. I'll be buying some things for my girl that I know she really needs and won't get for herself . I won't be buying a plasma TV 'cause they just came out with one that's 2" bigger than the one my neighbor just got. Or camping out for a toy so my kids don't get dissapointed. Everyone likes nice things; I just think it's gotten out of hand. It doesn't touch my life one way or another. I was more interested in the religious perspective. My immediate family is devout Roman Catholic and we don't exchange gifts.

[Neruo]

Christmas is crap indeed. Those silly americans managed to push their believe in people's faces and at the same time promote their mass-comsumption soiciety of materialism. You get the point. I am boycotting christmas from now on =)

[Ex Nine]

Who cares where, how, or what other people buy? If you don't want to shop around the crowds, shop online or through catalogs.

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by Ex Nine Who cares where, how, or what other people buy? If you don't want to shop around the crowds, shop online or through catalogs. I agree.And I don't.And I do ! More interested in the opinion of folks who hold the day sacred. Or we could just bullshit back and forth if they pull a no show. So, what are your plans after graduation ?

[Ex Nine]

Originally posted by R.Carter More interested in the opinion of folks who hold the day sacred. I hold the day sacred. It's an economic holiday and, to me, the free exchange of goods and services, along with general merry-making, is sacred. Not to mention the food. Or we could just bullshit back and forth if they pull a no show.[/b] Yeah, that's what this forum is all about after all. You know, religion/spirituality is practically the definition of bullshitting back and forth, especially due to a no show of the brain. So, what are your plans after graduation ?[/b] I plan to be FREE. God bless America!

[TygrHawk]

Originally posted by Ex Nine I plan to be FREE. Hoo boy are you gonna be disappointed.

[Ex Nine]

Originally posted by TygrHawk Hoo boy are you gonna be disappointed. Disappointed by reality? Naaahh.

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by Ex Nine Disappointed by reality? Naaahh. I read your path post, I think you're gonna have a blast.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by R.Carter Peeps trampling each other at a WalMart is, though. Same goes for waiting in a 12 hour line. Like I said, giving in the spirit of giving is cool. I'll be buying some things for my girl that I know she really needs and won't get for herself . I won't be buying a plasma TV 'cause they just came out with one that's 2\" bigger than the one my neighbor just got. Or camping out for a toy so my kids don't get dissapointed. Everyone likes nice things; I just think it's gotten out of hand. It doesn't touch my life one way or another. I was more interested in the religious perspective. My immediate family is devout Roman Catholic and we don't exchange gifts. Don't blame the holiday. Blame the people. Such tramplings have nothing to do with Christmas, consumerism or decaying morality, they have everything to do with individual idiots.

[Ex Nine]

I'm gonna have five or six blasts! And that's just before breakfast.

[Tsen]

You're all behind the times. Christmas is no more, seeing as how Santa died earlier this month. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but here's his Obituary:

[Neruo]

You do have to admit that America raped christmas, not any other country. ^__^

[wombing]

yeah, the last two years i've informed everyone that i won't be accepting or giving purchased gifts. however, they can gladly donate to unicef, the red cross, world vision, etc if they truly want to give monetarily. or create something that requires little or no money. my brother said he's going to try building my a totem pole this year which will only be a gag gift, but i can't wait.

[sephiroth clock]

I think this is a very unfortunate, and wrong view of Christmas. The other thing, I am trying to learn, is to not get angry at people who seem deluded/materialistic/mean/unaware, even if it makes you angry, criticizing them cannot help them. Especially bashing them is the completely wrong idea. Being constructive with them, and trying to teach them, maybe (which may be extremely hard to teach a very materialistic person what matters in life and how to be detached). You have to accept, and stifle your anger. I am just starting this practice conciously, and I guess I grit my teeth. But each person is on their own path, and they all have their own reasons (especially for all you deterministic people out there.) Always think of the reasons behind people, to have empathy. I have a new phrase, "you are, what you criticize."

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by sephiroth clock I have a new phrase, \"you are, what you criticize.\" As much as I respect your right to an alternate view of this situation, I don't believe it is accurate to plead empathy for someone who can't seem to control their behavior in the face of a product. If these folks were lining up for food or medical supplies and lost control out of desperation, that would be different. As far as your new phrase is concearned; I couldn't disagree more. I do criticize the overly materialistic people who trample each other and my behavior never resembles theirs. I am not anything I criticize. By your definition a person who criticizes a thief or a liar is one themself. I am sure there is something you don't like about people, that you are not yourself. Empathy is a commendable emotion, I believe yours is misplaced in this instance.

[Worlds Within]

Originally posted by Asher yeah, the last two years i've informed everyone that i won't be accepting or giving purchased gifts. Hehe. What were their reactions? I've thought of doing that myself...

[Gwendolyn]

I'm not even a Christian and Christmas means a lot to me. I love being able to have an excuse to help my Grandmother fix up a delicious, heart attack inducing meal and I love being able to be around my family and the people that I love seeing the smiles I they give when they open something I have truly put my heart into. I make most of the gifts that I give. It means more.....Of course, I see a lot of people looking at Christmas with the mindset of " Well, so and so gave me a nice gift, so I have to out do him/her.", but all in all, I see it as a holiday that brings everyone together....Maybe I am just niave...

[Barbizzle]

I see it as a holiday that brings everyone together....Maybe I am just naive... [/b] The same goes for me, and My family is Jewish. haha. Well, my cousins and I are half Jewish, and raised Jewish. But we love to celebrate Christmas every year with the family because it brings us all together and its a lot of fun.

[sephiroth clock]

Originally posted by R.Carter As much as I respect your right to an alternate view of this situation, I don't believe it is accurate to plead empathy for someone who can't seem to control their behavior in the face of a product. If these folks were * lining up for food or medical supplies and lost control out of desperation, that would be different. * As far as your new phrase is concearned; I couldn't disagree more. I do criticize the overly materialistic people who trample each other and my behavior never resembles theirs. I am not anything I criticize. By your definition a person who criticizes a thief or a liar is one themself. I am sure there is something you don't like about people, that you are not * yourself. Empathy is a commendable emotion, I believe yours is misplaced * in this instance. I have also changed my mind about my new phrase, or rather my wording and conception. I realized that criticism is not the right word here. Criticism is logical, and useful, and can help people. A better phrase would be something along the lines of, "If you hate people/ bash people, for some reason, then you are no better than those people." But the best way to understand what I'm trying to say is with football. Let's Imagine a hypothetical football field of "spiritual progress" A person who is extremely materialistic may be on the seven yard line. But a person who bashes/hates on materialistic people, and calls them sick and disgusting, is putting themselves on the seven yard line, or even behind the seven yard line. Lucius explained this to me, in a thread where I criticized "rich ignorant bastards." Let me make sure that there is a clear difference between critizing, which can be helpful if presented in the correct way around people, and hating/bashing, which is not helpful at all and the person who does it does not even attempt to truly help anybody. I hope this makes more sense R.Carter, If you find a flaw, point it out and I will rethink my logic. But thanks for helping me rethink my logic in the first place... I am more satisfied with this explenation. I guess this theory only applies to people that have certain ideas involving religion/spirituality. As to the "Christmas is a Scam" you pointed out the important parts of christmas in your original post. I think you should focus more on those, because really there many people who are in the spirit of giving, and many groups who do outreach work, rather than materialistics, as for them, just try to ignore them and stick around with people who are really in the true spirit of christmas. Christmas is a scam for about I estimate 5 percent to 15 percent of the US, on and off, and most people just enjoy being with friends and family, and giving presents, not all families are super rich, and some have to be content with simple gifts.

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by sephiroth clock I have also changed my mind about my new phrase, or rather my wording and conception. I realized that criticism is not the right word here. Criticism is logical, and useful, and can help people. A better phrase would be something along the lines of, \"If you hate people/ bash people, for some reason, then you are no better than those people.\" But the best way to understand what I'm trying to say is with football. Let's Imagine a hypothetical football field of \"spiritual progress\" A person who is extremely materialistic may be on the seven yard line. But a person who bashes/hates on materialistic people, and calls them sick and disgusting, is putting themselves on the seven yard line, or even behind the seven yard line. Let me make sure that there is a clear difference between critizing, which can be helpful if presented in the correct way around people, and hating/bashing, which is not helpful at all and the person who does it does not even attempt to truly help anybody. I hope this makes more sense R.Carter, If you find a flaw, point it out and I will rethink my logic. But thanks for helping me rethink my logic in the first place... I am more satisfied with this explenation. I guess this theory only applies to people that have certain ideas involving religion/spirituality. First off, I don't hate anybody. In some way I even understand how some people may feel better about themselves or their lives by having a product that is much sought after. Almost like a status symbol. I even understand how a poor mother might work overtime to save the money to be able to stand on line to get her kids some popular game or toy. That might be her way of thanking her kids for going without some other things during the year. I also agree that Christmas is a great opportunity for families to spend time together regardless of their religion. What I don't agree with is the groups of people who will do anything to get the " big toy " of the year. It happens every year. Cabbage Patch Kids, Furby, Elmo PSP, X Box 360...... And there will be something next year that people will stomp on each other to get. If I had a friend or family member who behaved like this, I would try to change their mind about the amount of value they were placing on an unimportant product that will be in great supply next month. Get it then. As far as the hoards of people I'm criticizing, they are their own responsibility. I'm not bashing starving people, the handicapped or the poor; just the greedy.

[sephiroth clock]

So the title of your post, "Christmas is a Scam" is misleading, because that means that all Christmas is a scam.

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by sephiroth clock So the title of your post, \"Christmas is a Scam\" is misleading, because that means that all Christmas is a scam. I stand duly corrected. flourish of trumpets ...ahem, " I hereby rename this thread I think Christmas is Over-Commercialized" Deal !

[ptahsokar]

Carter, I agree with your assesment. I also find it strange how the very same "religious" people who say the same thing you scream at the top of their lungs that "Christmas is over-commercialized!" are the VERY SAME people who have a few hundred, even a few thousand dollars worth of gifts under the tree come Christmas day. The psychology of this is easy to understand. Those that are religious are also family-oriented. They realize that if they don't spoil their family members silly at Christmas that they aren't being a team player, so to speak. The question is what's the solution to this predicament. How do you teach people that want Christmas "under-commercialized" to curb their desire for pseudolove that is paid to them by their families for expensive gifts? Good question. Just shows how screwy an ideal like religion can get over time. But I wanted to elaborate on a question you haven't stated, but suggested in your title "Christmas is a Scam". I have a beleif system that is based on the worship not just of a single God but of other entities as well. I am a monist, in that I aspire in the direction of Heavenly Father, but I have managed to crack a mystery called Worship. What is Worship? Worship is a powerful way to become a better person. Even, and especially, an Athiest should practice it. What you do is you select a being that is superior to one of your weaknesses and you learn everything you can about that being and DO what that being does. For an athiest, this is very possible. For example, Santa Claus has an actual factual background. One can read about the history of this pop icon, about the good man (or men, hell even good women that make up the "myth") and say "You know what, I want to worship the ideal of Santa Claus!" How you do this is you learn everything you can about the thought-form Santa Claus, starting off at the most basic, and then getting rather esoteric find out about St. Nicholas, his life, what he did, and find some really cool things that he either said or did, and then commit yourself to doing similar things in your own life. Again an example, if you read that St. Nick helped the poor wherever he found them, you could purposfully set aside a set amount, let's say $30 a month, and get it in small bills or quarters and when a homeless person came up to you bumming change, you would give them a buck or two. When your money ran out for that month, you'd just stop giving out money. Doing this would, over time, make you a more charitable person, a practicer of true love (not that pharisaic pseudolove of XMas where parents purchase their children's love with material gifts), and when Christmas came around, it would be the festival of your god, the one you worship. Maybe to worship more strongly, you could pump up the $$$ to $100 for the month of December. You put St. Nick in your crosshairs and you just run after him (ie. follow his example, pitting his generocity against yours, who cares if he's dead in body, the spirit of Christmas, and Santa, still lives on). This is POWERFUL MAGICK. Pretty soon, if you're pumped about it, you'll find yourself competing against yourself, trying to raise the level of your giving to higher and higher levels. If you were a powerful worshiper of Santa, there will even come a time when you'll find an opportunity to work with others to do actual good at Christmas, like giving presents to the poor. And its pretty funny too when a Thiest asks you to join their Church, when you can whip out of your hat that you serve a god already, and his name is Santa Claus. If you get really good at it, trust me, the Holy Spirit will confirm to the Theist that you actually worship him.