Why I Converted to Catholicism

[Leo Volont]

Why I Converted to Catholicism Just more than several years ago I converted to Catholicism, which by all accounts seems a very rare and peculiar thing for any non-Catholic to do. Many people, both Catholic and non-Catholic would wonder why a person would do such a thing, especially as officially converting takes too much work to be done simply on a whim. So to answer this general curiosity, here I will attempt to explain why I decided to convert. Of course, the entire story would be complicated even if the core motivations were simple, so please expect a depiction of all of the textures and terrain undulations of not a perfect situation but of a real one. First, let me begin by telling of a precipitating moment, a catalytic prelude to my Conversion. I was visited by my adult daughter in the American Southwest and we decided to pass our time sightseeing. We went to quite a famous old Catholic Mission. I had seen it all before, but when asked by my daughter to go inside the Church with her, I felt some discomfort at the notion and sent her ahead by herself without me. I would have had no hesitation about walking in alone, but as my daughter was a Catholic and I was not, I felt it would be incongruous – the mixing of a tourist with a true believer would have presented a clash against my sense of good taste. And then there was another dynamic involved. I had once been a Protestant, and was still tinged with that strange complex which effects nearly all Protestants, which is a hate for Catholicism that is carefully and repeatedly indoctrinated from the earliest Sunday school lessons, paired with an unavoidable envy for the apparent genuine religiosity of the Catholic Experience – a pageantry and flow of religious emotions which Protestantism is at a complete loss to match, which is the very reason why the Leaders of Protestantism find it so necessary to carefully and repeatedly instruct upon the necessity for hating Catholicism. You can see it is a spiraling set of dynamics which feed upon themselves. Hate is the Protestant’s best defense against Envy. So where I could have gone into that Mission Church alone, I was afraid my envy would show to my quite perceptive daughter. But there was no hate, and this I will have to explain in the bulk of this presentation. One does not ever instantly know why one feels certain things, until one has had time to think about one’s feelings. We conduct much of our behaviors by the dictates of our feelings, and would not know why we act the way we do until we find time to reflect upon our conduct with our intellect. Not accompanying my daughter into that Mission Church puzzled me and I found myself going over that decision like a philosopher trying to solve the Riddle of the Sphinx. It finally occurred to me that if I was envious, than there was nothing to prevent myself from becoming Catholic. My parents were dead, and probably would not have cared if they had still been alive. Of course, if my early protestant conditioning, to hate Catholicism inveterately in my heart and soul, had still been entirely intact, it would have never occurred to me to even consider a Conversion. So, what made Catholicism even a little bit sympathetic to me? First, for years I had studied and participated in some of the movements of the World’s Higher Moral Religions – Sufism (which better represents old Zoroastrianism more than it does modern Islam, no matter what the Sufis themselves say about it, as they are all quite under duress to pretend to be good Muslims), Spiritual Hinduism and Yoga, and Mahayana Buddhism, together with the other Traditions that had borrowed all of their Spiritual Capital from these sources, along as from elements of Spiritual Catholicism. I had been a Monk at an Aurobindo Ashram, a high initiate in Kundalini Yoga, and had followed a number of Gurus (along with a stint in the Peace Corps, as I believe actual service to Humanity must go hand in hand with one’s Spiritual Quest). And what did I notice in my active acquaintance and experience with the adherents and followers of these Higher Religions? It was that there was in every case some interaction and sympathetic communications between these Spiritual Groups and those of various Catholic Religious Orders. Indeed, Monks, Catholic and Non-Catholic alike, would visit each other’s Monasteries, Shrines and other establishments and partake somewhat in each other’s spiritual practices hoping to gain some insight, in the spirit of Spiritual Fellowship. It was no small matter to me that Spiritual Catholicism was not held in disgrace by the other Higher Religions of the World, as the same cannot be said of Protestantism (which is seen not so much as a Religion but as an excuse the West has contrived to not have any Religion at all – Protestant Salvation is represented as coming from a free Grace that requires neither spiritual practice nor even morality, and Christians are encouraged to refer to themselves as ‘sinners’, while Good Works are shunned. Where is Religion in any of that? Civilization can survive only on a basis of a wide acceptance of moral and spiritual assumptions and a lot of very hard good work, all of which Paulist Christianity dismisses as non-essential, and even as detrimental to their Salvation by based upon Faith alone). One would not willingly associate oneself with a Religion that would bring a moral or spiritual scandal to oneself. One needs to be able to correctly discern both Christ and the Devil. Something can call itself a Religion, but if it propagates the Devil and puts forward Satanic interests and Doctrines, I should hardly suppose we should concede to its Religious pretensions. Charity and Christian Love does not demand we hand our Sheep over to the Wolves, no matter how well-tailored be their Sheep’s Clothing. Then there was the matter of History. I’ve always studied and read History – in College I majored in it, before going over to Philosophy. I’ve always considered that Catholic Civilization did rather well for itself, though many would argue the point, but when all things were considered in the balance, Catholic Civilization grew and even thrived, and lived up to not only some Spiritual Ideals but even some material ones as well. Indeed, from the Papacy of Gregory the Great to the defeat and the collapse of Catholic Christendom in the Wars of the Protestant Rebellion, was it not almost exactly the “Thousand Year Reign of Christ on Earth” promised by the New Testament Prophesies. Oh, and perhaps I should point out that the “1000 Year Reign of Christ” could not have begun until a Pope arose who would challenge Paul’s strangle-hold on Christian Doctrines, and particularly that doctrine requiring the submission of The Church to secular political authority found in the Epistle to the Romans. Christian Civilization would have been impossible had Pope Gregory the Great, and others in his footsteps, not established the Catholic Church as a central political power, a final arbiter of disputes and a court of last resort, which alone could make peace and commerce possible over what would have been a cluster of perpetually warring cities and states. Back a few years ago, while still very much a Non-Catholic, I would often go Online and discuss my political and religious views, and would occasionally be surprised to find myself, a disinterested bystander, so to speak, defending the role of Catholicism in History. However spotted the History of Secular Catholicism, the facts point out that as a Civilization, Catholic Christendom was the most successful Civilization in the world this last two thousands years – the only Civilization which had been able to stand against the invasions of first the Huns, in the 6th and 7th Centuries, and then the Mongols in the 12th to 14th. The much maligned Crusades were actually a political and military success in preserving Christendom, that is, Catholic Civilization (for which no one today is grateful, no, not even the officials of the Catholic Church as even the Popes themselves nowadays issue hand-wringing apologies for having deployed armies that were solely responsible for having saved Christendom when everywhere else less hardy civilizations were swept into the basest and cruelest barbarism, not because they morally renounced an active defense or because they did not make what must have been the most valiant efforts to defend themselves, but because the imperfections of their Institutions made an effective defense impossible). Such successes, in Catholic Christendom, were only possible as the Church was able to exercise an effective Secular Authority over a body of nationalities that behaved effectively like the component states of a great Catholic Empire. The policies that could sustain this Jurisdiction, the saving Grace of our Civilization, are to be commended… not apologized for. This is not to say that the Catholic Church did not often have to resolve Social and Religious Conflicts of its own making. If certain Bishops had gratuitously and even foolishly provoked civil wars, we can certainly lament their inexcusable stupidity while still understanding the absolute necessity of re-establishing Territorial Integrity. One should not provoke Rebellion, but at the same time one can also not excuse Rebellion. It is silly for Protestants and Anti-clerical Masons (who dominate the politics of almost every Nation we would suppose to be Catholic) to accuse the Catholics of having fiercely suppressed Rebellion when certainly no Protestant or Masonic Nation has ever permitted such liberties in their own jurisdictions. The American’s who killed millions in their own Civil War must be disingenuous when they accuse Catholics of killing in order to sustain their Union. And the modern Non- Catholic and Anti-Clerical European Nations have committed genocide with far less justification than Christendom ever demanded. But Spiritual and Historical Respectability are only incidental factors in my Conversion – reasons why it would not be considered disgraceful to convert to Catholicism, but not yet providing any positive incentive for Converting. As I indicated before, I already suppose that there are other Higher Spiritual Religions – the World outside of Catholicism is not entirely devoid of Grace. How can I say such a thing, now, as a Catholic? Well, because there are Saints of God who have been manifest in all of the Higher Religions of the World. One can hardly expect that the Cosmic Christ would limit His Dispensation only to those people who would have the audacity to claim some Divine Benefits for having murdered the Messiah of God. We must remember some of those important though mostly tacit lessons of the Bible, one of which is that The People’s of the Three Kings of the East did not inflict violence upon The Christ but rather paid their Tribute to the King of Kings and asked only for Christ’s Glory. They did not reject Christ… but in point of fact they were the first and perhaps the only peoples to ever have actually bowed before Our Lord while He was still among us. Certainly that should be rewarded with Grace as equally as with those who offered Christ only suffering and then murder, not so much bowing before Christ or Worshipping Christ as attempting to trade His Body to God for that License of Free Sin which Christians call Salvation. And the Fruits of this Approval from the Cosmic Christ appear in the miraculous lives of the Saints, both Catholic and Non-Catholic. The Proof of Divine Favor is in the Supernatural Fruits of the Saints. This is pivotal. This is very important. One needs to remember the Logic of the Prophet Elijah. Elijah did not propose to argue for a Belief System. Elijah did not emphasize the aesthetics of his doctrines – how the religion he proposed could appeal to the sensibilities of each individual’s self-interests. No. Elijah wagered that he could bring down fire from Heaven to validate his own Religious Views, while betting that those with opposing Religious Views could not – That Spirit would only answer to True Religion. The Validity of Religion would rest upon the Evidence of the Miraculous – the Supernatural Mandate from Heaven. We would know True Religion by the Divine Power invested in Its Saints – this is the Lesson of Elijah (And as Catholics we should understand that Elijah was the Prophet who would found the Order of Monks at Mount Carmel which would later, during the Crusades, be the foundation for the Catholic Carmelite Order, whose habit seems to be a favorite of Our Lady, who, when She appears in Religious Garb at all, is perhaps always dressed as a Carmelite, representing an Order that began with Elijah… an Order both Jewish and Catholic simultaneously. This is expressive of a Religious Unity which Catholicism’s apparent Gentile Fixation largely renounces, even while Our Blessed Virgin Mary wears the cloths of Judaism. And do we forget that the Magnificat is a Jewish Prayer? Catholicism may one day need to review its position that this first Schism in the Church was entirely necessary – the Schism which separated the Gentile Congregations from the Apostolic Church of Messianic Judaism. Following Paul into separation, faction and division seems to have been only a House dividing against itself). Catholicism has never had a total monopoly of Saints. But then it occurred to me, that the Catholics, over the last two thousand years, have perhaps had the greater number of First Magnitude Saints. Catholicism has had a dozen Great Saints where between all of the other Religions combined there may have been only about half as many (Protestantism, the Religion of Paul, having had none over the period of five hundred years). The Spiritual Communities of the World could hardly ignore Catholicism’s fine winning record. The Vine of Christ is identified by its fruits, no? Now, if one would desire to be a Saint oneself, does not one’s odds improve by joining the Team that has shown the most successes in that Endeavor? Then there is the matter of Divine Revelation. My first acquaintance with any notions of a particular Divine Revelation going exclusively to Catholics (though Heaven does not seem to distinguish between the Roman, Orthodox, Coptic or Thomasian Rites) was not through any formal education or reading, but came by a chance encounter with a rather special Catholic Priest of my acquaintance. You see, back in the nineteen-eighties while I was still affiliated with one of the Oriental Religions, I became acquainted through a Hare Krishna girl, who was also a Catholic, with a Dominican Priest, Father Tom, who was then running a relief operation to feed the poor – mostly migrant farm workers. I found myself with time on my hands and so I asked Father Tom if he could use a volunteer. He became quite a spiritual mentor and gave me my first informal lessons regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary. I had already acquired some pictures of the Blessed Virgin which added to the population of the Pantheon which cluttered my Spiritual Altar and took up much of the space on many of my walls, and told Father Tom of the ones I recognized in his own collection. His eyes quite lit up when he found he had uncovered a Marian from such an unexpected source, and I was from then on inundated with all kinds of Marian information and intelligence, particularly regarding the instances of recent Revelation in the Apparitions of Our Lady. Of particular remembrance, he made a gift to me of a Supernatural Photo of the Blessed Virgin’s Apparition in Medjugorje Herzegovina. It showed a translucent Lady against a granite wall in which one could see both Our Lady and the granite stones immediately behind Her. Perhaps Father Tom prayed for my Conversion, but it would take years for that prayer, if there had been one, to come to fruition. Then, coming back to the near present, several weeks after the incident with my daughter at the Mission Church, I saw a tabloid newspaper that had one of those ubiquitous stories, largely fictional, regarding Our Lady the Blessed Virgin. It intrigued me. It brought back my memories of Father Tom. I bought it and took it home and began to do a series of Web Searches in hopes of validating the story. There was just enough Truth in the tabloid story to provide me with some more reliable links. It seems Father Tom had not gone into quite enough detail 20 years before. There had been hundreds of Revelatory Appearances of the Blessed Virgin during our Christian Era. Some, such as in the instances of Guadalupe and Fatima, have objectively and certainly been proven to be of miraculous origins. And then there were the hundreds of other instances of Divine Apparitions which must be miraculous if the anecdotes regarding them can be believed, as they certainly should be, as they carry the weight of any number of credible witnesses whose testimony could well meet legal muster. We must remember that not all evidence is Scientific, yet atheists often insist that Evidence that would be entirely sufficient in a Court of Law should not count at all in the judgments of our own minds. While other Religions may have had Saints, it seems that Catholicism is the only Higher Religion to enjoy a sustained Revelation from Heaven. Unfortunately there have always been factions in the Catholic Church who would oppose these Revelations – I would suggest they are the ‘weeds’ Christ spoke of, rising up to choke out the Wheat. The Bishops seem to have often acted as though they were jealous of Our Lady. For instance, in the early centuries the Bishops forbade any New Revelation being added to what they called “The Depository of Faith” – apparently, they had no appetite for digesting ever new communications from Heaven, and would save themselves from such responsibilities by deliberately cutting off all commerce with God. This slamming shut the Door of Revelation could easily be seen as a deliberate affront to the ongoing Revelations from the Blessed Virgin Mary. But, despite the obstructionist Bishops, the Revelations would continue, coming to the Religious Orders and the Holy Laity, while the Bishops, despite themselves, would be forced to recognize it, calling it ‘Private Revelation’. Yes, the Bishops may have been reluctant to show their approval, but it was a case of their either following their flock or their being left behind without a flock. This, in fact, accounts for all those differences between Protestantism and Catholicism, where Catholicism had opened itself to the influences of these Revelatory Apparitions of Our Lady and the teachings and experiences of the Saints. After all, had we been left with only the Depository of Faith, that is, only the Bible, would we today not be in much the same deplorable shape as Protestantism, which only allows itself the Bible, to be cut off from all current and continuous Revelation from Heaven. It is often argued that Absolute Truth need not be updated regularly, but we need to remember that the Bible was published containing 14 Letters from Paul, who most certainly could bear with quite a great deal of updating. Also, I might add that it seems as though it should be some kind of Divine Law, that those who deliberately make it their policy to reject Revelation should never receive Revelation. Protestants then have shut themselves off from God. But thank the Good Lord that Catholicism left open that ‘Private Revelation’ Loop Hole. Indeed, Catholic Openness to these almost continuous Marian and Saintly Revelations would be instrumental in establishing a High Christian Civilization, a Civilization that would peak in the 11th and 12th Centuries, where a Kingdom of a thousand Cathedrals would rise up, all referred to in short as an “Our Lady’s of ‘This’” or an “Our Lady’s of ‘That’”. Catholicism, in its highest moments and manifestations, was a Religion of Our Lady. Christ was appreciated and worshipped mostly because He came so well recommended by His Blessed Virgin Mother. As the Apparitions of Our Lady had converted Europe, so they would convert the New World, primarily through the instrumentality of the Miraculous Apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which remains a visibly verifiable Miracle to this day. So… back to the Weekend of the Tabloid Newspaper – remembering back, I largely went sleepless while searching the Web and studying the History of Our Lady and Her Apparitions. Approaching Monday morning, I decided to convert. Still feeling some discomfort with walking onto Catholic soil without belonging or having been invited (When has any Non-Catholic ever been invited by anybody to Convert? If there is such a thing as a Catholic Missionary, he must be the member of the most secret of Religious Orders). It had not occurred to me to research the actual process of becoming a Catholic. If I had, it may have significantly altered what turned out to be a very positive experience. I went off to pursue my Conversion with only the vaguest ideas of what would be expected of me. I thought that appealing to the Church’s bureaucracy would only perhaps bog me down, and it would be better to start with the advice of a knowledgeable Lay Person. So, I went to a small Catholic Bookstore in my neighborhood. I’ve always found I could trust Business People in the Religious Markets for their ability to provide practical and to the point spiritual advice, where the official Clergy can often be profound but mystifying, and even discouraging where they think they are not doing their jobs unless they can enumerate every single possible negative and toss up every possible barrier they can conceive of (these are the same Clergy who find it so difficult to recruit new Clergy. Hmmmm, I wonder why). It turned out this Shop was owned by a Third Order Carmelite Lady. I walked in and wasted no time in asking, “I suppose one needs a Sponsor in order to become a Catholic?” It only took this Lady a few seconds to size me up with her gaze and then she replied “Yes, you will”, and she proceeded to give me a list of details -- places to go, people to see, and she told me that she would consent to be my Sponsor -- my ‘Godmother’. I did not know at the time that she was the most fearsome of all God Mothers in the American Southwest, and that all of the Clergy were quite terrified of her. I would be her 18th God Child to be sponsored into the Catholic Church, and I received quite the red carpet treatment owing to her ‘intercessions’. But back to that day. I asked if she had a 24K gold Miraculous Medal to sell, but her shop was on the poor side of town and she didn’t carry the more expensive inventory items, and so she drew a map to the more upscale Catholic Store across town where I was able to purchase a medium size Miraculous Medal, which I still wear. I needed some token of Catholicism because my decision to Convert came right after Easter and so I would be in the ‘pipeline’ for a complete year before becoming officially a Catholic, that is, before being allowed to receive the Holy Sacrament (I’m sure they must have taught me why it is necessary to violate all the rules of Civilized Hospitality by refusing to Feed the Hungry, especially those who Hunger for Things of the Spirit, who Hunger for Christ; and why it became the Policy of our Modern ‘Peters’ NOT to feed His Sheep as soon as they might complain of their Hunger. But apparently this Sensible Teaching didn’t make enough of an impression for me to remember it). Not much later I learned from my God Mother, a Third Order Carmelite we must remember, of the Sacramental Nature of the Brown Scapular (which sources from the Carmelite Order). It instantly seemed to me to be a most indispensable item, and so we both insisted, God Mother and God Child, to the Carmelite Parish Priest that the ‘rule books’ said nothing about the need for being a fully Baptized and Confirmed Catholic before one can be enrolled into the Order of those who wear the Brown Scapular, and so I received The Brown Scapular, which made my waiting for the Holy Sacrament that much more tolerable. Then a little later I received the Chord of Saint Philomena, and then my God Mother insisted that I take the Chord of Saint Joseph, and memorize his famous Prayer from the Fifth Century ( “Hail Saint Joseph whose Protection is so great, so strong so prompt…”). I was instructed on how to multiply up Holy Water. All the while I read or became familiar with most of the books in her little Shop. And among the Statues and Paintings, I learned my Catholic Saints. By the time the RCIC Classes began, I was fairly well settled in and prepared for them. There was rarely any assigned work besides reading, but I would try to hand in at least one ‘Paper’ a month, so that the deacons could report favorably back to my Godmother… I wanted her to be proud of her newest protégé. So that is the Story of what lead up to my Conversion. I wanted to become a Catholic and carried through and became a Catholic. But am I entirely satisfied? Do I wish the Catholic Church were different, were better? Well, certainly. We all must keep in mind that Christ prophesized that His Church would be a mixture of Wheat and Weeds. What rational person would wish to have the same appetite for Weeds as for Wheat? And yet I see very little discernment among the Catholic Intelligentsia, if there even is such a thing, for differentiating between the Good and the Evil within the Church. I have never found an open Forum for Catholic Discussion… everything sensible seems to be at the same time ‘heretical’, making discussion impossible… nobody is allowed to think. Questions can be asked and the Same Answers are given in reply that have always lead in the past to all of the Divisions and Unrest which have marred our Catholic History, as though nobody had ever heard the Words of Christ which say that Bad Doctrine can be recognized by its Bad Results. Well, what good does complaining do? After all, Christ DID say that the Weeds would be with the Wheat well until the End of Time, that is, until the Final Harvest. Well, soon enough this Day of this Final Harvest will come, when the useless, barren and even positively evil Doctrines that have crowded out the Good in Our Church will no longer be able to sustain a defense based on duress, suppression and forced silence. Mary will confront Her Bishops and suddenly it won’t seem so obvious that they should have chosen Paul over Christ. Perhaps, the drive for Revenues always made Paul’s Popular Wide Way attractive to the Bishops who were mercenary enough even from the time of Peter’s murdering Ananias and Sapphira for their money. But hadn’t Christ quite condemned the Wide Way as the Way to destruction, and did He not advocate the less appealing but the only effectual Way – the Narrow Way of the Teachings of Righteousness and Perfection. On the Day of the Harvest we must decide whether we belong to the Church of the Wide Way, or of the Narrow? The Catholic Church contains Both. The Catholic Church provides a Choice, a Test – a Great Fork in the Road. It is both the Church of the Paul’s Bishops and the Church of the Holy Religious Orders, the Righteous Laity, and of Mary the Blessed Virgin. It is both the Church of Christ Her Son, and the Church of Paul, whose credentials must be wondered at considering that he never spoke a single word commending the Blessed Virgin or indeed ever quoted a single statement of Christ. Yes, I know that these matters of Doctrine may be confusing, but we should remember that we have not been left without guidance. While we still receive the Revelations and Apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary, there is hope that Her Patronage and Sponsorship will bring us through to completion and perfection, and that She, with Her Angels and Saints, will sustain the Wheat while holding back the encroachments of the Weeds. So, in short, I converted to Catholicism because it is the World’s Last and Only Living Religion, experiencing an Active Communication with Heaven, through Saints, and Seers (once called Prophets and Oracles), and receiving Revelations from Divinity Itself through the Intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I have not converted to a mere Belief System, but to an Institution that embodies the Living Vine of Christ on Earth, nurtured and watered by the Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God Herself. To be a Catholic is to be under the Pall of Her Grace.

[dragonoverlord]

Leo are you part of the babyboomer generation? If you are not familar with the phrase ask and I will explain.

[Alucinor Architecton]

wowow. you should've put the " in short i converted because" at the top. that wuold've helped. oh and by the way im a catholic too.

[bradybaker]

Hey Leo, have you seen Dogma? "Catholics don't celebrate their faith, they mourn it."

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by dragonoverlord Leo are you part of the babyboomer generation? If you are not familar with the phrase ask and I will explain. Yes, I was begotten by one of those returning soldiers and was part of the biggest swell of population in human history.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by bradybaker Hey Leo, have you seen Dogma? \"Catholics don't celebrate their faith, they mourn it.\" Indeed, is not 'mourning' appropriate? Christ was murdered, wasn't he? Only some Antichristical Protestant could possibly find something to celebrate in that. Satan may have cause to gloat, but an intuitive Marian Catholic will discern in the Events that Christ was robbed of His Glory and Messianic Destiny, and Suffering was imposed upon Him because Humanity, as a whole, rejected Him. Nothing to Celebrate, is there? We carry the Crucifix as a reminder of Our Betrayal and the Necessity for Our Penance. The entire Mission of Catholicism is to live down this Catastrophic Crime against God. This Mission will finally be Complete when Humanity comes to regret its Rejection of the Messianic Destiny and allows Christ His Glory. So, 'mourning' His Murder would seem to totally in the correct direction.

[bradybaker]

Didn't he die to forgive the sins of man or something? That seems like it'd be worth celebrating. And besides...technically he was 'murdered'...but he went right back to paradise after he died...not a huge sacrifice if you ask me.

[Genjyo]

Originally posted by bradybaker Didn't he die to forgive the sins of man or something? That seems like it'd be worth celebrating. And besides...technically he was 'murdered'...but he went right back to paradise after he died...not a huge sacrifice if you ask me. I agree that it is something to be happy about. Without this sacrifice there wouldn't be any salvation and redemption. The act of leaving his celestial and glorious place in the presence of his Father and coming down to Earth to a humble upbringing, bring promise to human kind that suffering and evil will have an end, be portrayed as a sinner, be humiliated, suffer agony in torture, and be executed like the lowliest criminal, to finally cease from existence after having lived before time itself. There's more to this, but to sum it up, it is a sacrifice that he gladly submitted himself to.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by bradybaker Didn't he die to forgive the sins of man or something? That seems like it'd be worth celebrating. And besides...technically he was 'murdered'...but he went right back to paradise after he died...not a huge sacrifice if you ask me. Paul, who was one of the Pharisees who voted to have Jesus executed in the first place was the guy who subsequently asserted, with no foundation at all, that murdering Jesus would have the mechanical effect of nullifying all Sin. People believe this, but they only believe it because it was included in the Bible. People ignore the fact that the Real Apostles, en bloc, held this Doctrine of Paul's to be False Doctrine, and that it ever remained a Religious Duty to ever adhere to Righteousness, and that Christ would indeed come as Judge. Now, we can't both believe in Christ as Forgiver of All Sin because he was so grateful for having been murdered, and still believe that He will come back as Judge of the World. Simply read what Christ had to say in his few recorded sermons. He was not about being intentionally slaughtered so people could get a free pass into heaven, again, that was Paul's idea which every genuine Apostle rejected. Christ was about Righteousness, or its alternative which would be Judgment. Yes, we do have the quote, "Judge not, lest ye be judged". But we need to remember this in context, that Christ Himself was severely Judged. And after such a severe Judging, Humanity can only expect a severe payback in return. Re-read the Parables, and you will see that Christ does not speak favorably of the Evil Servants who kill the Son of the Master and King.

[Leo Volont]

[quote] I agree that it is something to be happy about. Without this sacrifice there wouldn't be any salvation and redemption. The act of leaving his celestial and glorious place in the presence of his Father and coming down to Earth to a humble upbringing, bring promise to human kind that suffering and evil will have an end, be portrayed as a sinner, be humiliated, suffer agony in torture, and be executed like the lowliest criminal, to finally cease from existence after having lived before time itself. There's more to this, but to sum it up, it is a sacrifice that he gladly submitted himself to. So, it is your postion that Humanity is to have been rewarded for extinguishing the Messianic Kingdom. You think murdering Holy Men is a good thing? You think giving Sin open licence by advocating a complete and open-ended forgiveness is anything other than a complete Victory for Hell and triumph for the Devil? You need to be reminded of the Three Kings from the East, probably Zoroastrians, who had a system of Prophecy far better than anything the Jews had at the time... no Jews visited the Baby Jesus, did they? And what did these Three Kings do but submit themselves to homage and extend their first tribute to the New Universal King. They saw no inevitable Murder of this King in his early thirties, almost before he could even get started with an organized miinistry and political program. Then, for those who suppose that Christ came to be deliberately slaughtered, then why did Christ pray all night to be spared arrest and execution. Christ Himself would have had further plans. I suppose God was tired of the World's generally negative reception of His Messiah, and decided to Punish the World instead of forcing upon it a Spiritual Leadership that it seemed intent upon rejecting. Now look at the Results. 2000 Years of History and can anybody honestly say that it looks as though God has been rewarding us for having Murdered the Gift of His Messiah. Or does it look like one series of Punishments after another?

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Leo Volont Simply read what Christ had to say in his few recorded sermons. Come again?

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by bradybaker Come again? When we go over the Gospels, it seems that Christ must have had just one set Campaign Speech which he repeated again and again. This is what is quoted in the Book of Mathew, from chapters 5 through 7 and what is referred to as the Sermon of the Mount. In addition to this we have Christ's instructions with the Lord's Prayer (what Catholics call the "Our Father"), and the discourse of the Last Supper, and then the various parables. So, if one skips around between the non-essentials and simply zeroes in on Moral and Religious Teachings that were designed to be Intended Doctrine, allowed to be important because Christ considered them as worthy of detailed explanation, then we can read all that is important in the New Testament in perhaps under 10 minutes. Indeed, it is this dirth of New Doctrine in addition to what the Jews already believed that encouraged the Greek Gentiles to add to Christianity with all of that bullcrap that Paul the False Apostle made up in order to appeal to the Greeks who seemed to want more out of a Designer Religion then an Authentic Jewish Messianism would have offered. So the Greeks self-created Trinities of Three Equal Gods and Forgiveness of Sins and Free Salvation by Murder that would have appalled the Honest Jew. Indeed the Story of Abraham and the Sacrifice of Issac demonstrate conclusively that the Hebrews had permanently dispensed with Human Sacrifice, and the primary reason that God rewarded Abraham above all other Men of his Age, was that he WOULD NOT engage in Human Sacrifice, No, not even if God Himself demanded it. So it does not make sense that what Abraham was rewarded to refrain from, would suddenly be the Primary Matter for Religious Reward, that is, the Human Sacrifice of the Messiah.

[Genjyo]

Originally posted by Leo Volont So, it is your postion that Humanity is to have been rewarded for extinguishing the Messianic Kingdom. You think murdering Holy Men is a good thing? You think giving Sin open licence by advocating a complete and open-ended forgiveness is anything other than a complete Victory for Hell and triumph for the Devil? You need to be reminded of the Three Kings from the East, probably Zoroastrians, who had a system of Prophecy far better than anything the Jews had at the time... no Jews visited the Baby Jesus, did they? And what did these Three Kings do but submit themselves to homage and extend their first tribute to the New Universal King. They saw no inevitable Murder of this King in his early thirties, almost before he could even get started with an organized miinistry and political program. Then, for those who suppose that Christ came to be deliberately slaughtered, then why did Christ pray all night to be spared arrest and execution. Christ Himself would have had further plans. I suppose God was tired of the World's generally negative reception of His Messiah, and decided to Punish the World instead of forcing upon it a Spiritual Leadership that it seemed intent upon rejecting. Now look at the Results. 2000 Years of History and can anybody honestly say that it looks as though God has been rewarding us for having Murdered the Gift of His Messiah. Or does it look like one series of Punishments after another? Now I understand your reasoning. I see Jesus praying for this cup to be taken away from him, not as a sign of him wanting to avoid arrest and execution, but because he doesn't want his execution to be seen as an end to a lowly criminal. It's with agony that he is contemplating the following hours, the weight on his shoulders sure is extreme to say the least. He is asking for guidance so as to accomplish what he came down to Earth for. Mark 22:42, 43

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Genjyo Now I understand your reasoning. *I see Jesus praying for this cup to be taken away from him, not as a sign of him wanting to avoid arrest and execution, but because he doesn't want his execution to be seen as an end to a lowly criminal. *It's with agony that he is contemplating the following hours, the weight on his shoulders sure is extreme to say the least. *He is asking for guidance so as to accomplish what he came down to Earth for. *Mark 22:42, 43 Oh, I'm glad you responded, because I had forgotten something... we need to remember that Christ did not intentionally submit Himself for Execution, or why would it be that He placed a Curse on Jerusalem while He carried the Cross to His Execution. If Christ was going through with a Ceremony that would render Forgiveness of Sins, then why is it that He would paradoxically call down a Curse on Jerusalem at the same time. And then History bears it out. Jerusalem was not destroyed just once. But the Destruction in 70 A.D. was followed by another Roman Campaign in 130 A.D. Jews were effectively sent on their way in the Great Diaspora. Effectively the True Messianic Church was almost entirely destroyed, leaving the Gentile Greeks with more influence over Christian Doctrine than they deserved. But we need to remember that if Christ came to Forgive the Sins of Anybody, of Any People, it would have been the Jews from whom He came, the People who were instrumental in Sacrificing Him, and to whom He primarily preached. And yet what does History show but a decided Curse and Punishment. A People who had up until then been blest with Prophets and Saints have now gone 2000 years without a single Prophet, and for all their rallying and nation building the Curse hangs upon them to the extent that they still cannot build another Temple. It is not Forgiveness that follows on the Murder of the Messiah, but a Curse. Even in the Catholic Church, when a Saint goes to the extent of claiming a Benefit from the Blood of Christ, the Saints reward is to Share in the Suffering. It is not Forgiveness that comes from belief in Salvation by Blood but the Stigmata -- these Saints are Cursed with the Five Wounds of Christ, and with all the discomfort that would entail. And all of these Stigmatic Saints were given a Choice. Christ came to them in Vision and asked them, "Do you want my Glory or do you want my Suffering?" Like Good Catholics they preferred Suffering, without realizing that they were again advocating the continued Suffering of Christ who had by this time Suffered enough already. I think we will have the Second Coming of Christ and another shot at the Messianic Kingdom when the World is ready to concede Christ the Glory He deserves and can refrain from expecting Him to Suffer so that we can all Sin as much as we like. Indeed, there must be some basic ethical problem involved with supposing that one can enjoy some great Benefit by expressing Approval of an action which would be considered by any Court in any Country to be a most horrendous Crime. Indeed, I think that any person who thinks they can achieve Salvation by the Blood of the Crucified Christ should themselves be Crucified. If Crucifixion can Save Them, then let it be their own. Indeed, that is how it turned out to be for the Stigmatic Saints.

[sephiroth clock]

"Why I decided not to read the entire essay" Sephiroth Clock Just kidding, it is a large read, but obviously a very efforted post. I'm just not smart enough to understand what you are saying.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Leo Volont When we go over the Gospels, it seems that Christ must have had just one set Campaign Speech which he repeated again and again. This is what is quoted in the Book of Mathew, from chapters 5 through 7 and what is referred to as the Sermon of the Mount. In addition to this we have Christ's instructions with the Lord's Prayer (what Catholics call the \"Our Father\"), and the discourse of the Last Supper, and then the various parables. So, if one skips around between the non-essentials and simply zeroes in on Moral and Religious Teachings that were designed to be Intended Doctrine, allowed to be important because Christ considered them as worthy of detailed explanation, then we can read all that is important in the New Testament in perhaps under 10 minutes. Indeed, it is this dirth of New Doctrine in addition to what the Jews already believed that encouraged the Greek Gentiles to add to Christianity with all of that bullcrap that Paul the False Apostle made up in order to appeal to the Greeks who seemed to want more out of a Designer Religion then an Authentic Jewish Messianism would have offered. So the Greeks self-created Trinities of Three Equal Gods and Forgiveness of Sins and Free Salvation by Murder that would have appalled the Honest Jew. Indeed the Story of Abraham and the Sacrifice of Issac demonstrate conclusively that the Hebrews had permanently dispensed with Human Sacrifice, and the primary reason that God rewarded Abraham above all other Men of his Age, was that he WOULD NOT engage in Human Sacrifice, No, not even if God Himself demanded it. So it does not make sense that what Abraham was rewarded to refrain from, would suddenly be the Primary Matter for Religious Reward, that is, the Human Sacrifice of the Messiah. Lets not confuse the gospels with 'recorded sermons'.

[Ex Nine]

Leo, even though we have our differences, I just wanted to say I think you took a step up.

[Genjyo]

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div> Oh, I'm glad you responded, because I had forgotten something... we need to remember that Christ did not intentionally submit Himself for Execution, or why would it be that He placed a Curse on Jerusalem while He carried the Cross to His Execution. If Christ was going through with a Ceremony that would render Forgiveness of Sins, then why is it that He would paradoxically call down a Curse on Jerusalem at the same time. [/b] Jesus did explain that he had come down to give his perfect life for humankind. And when he spoke of his death to his disciples even Peter suggested that he go easy on himself and Jesus rebuked him for that. Avoiding this would have defeated his purpose. Mat 16:21-23 <!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont I think we will have the Second Coming of Christ and another shot at the Messianic Kingdom when the World is ready to concede Christ the Glory He deserves and can refrain from expecting Him to Suffer so that we can all Sin as much as we like. Indeed, there must be some basic ethical problem involved with supposing that one can enjoy some great Benefit by expressing Approval of an action which would be considered by any Court in any Country to be a most horrendous Crime. Indeed, I think that any person who thinks they can achieve Salvation by the Blood of the Crucified Christ should themselves be Crucified. If Crucifixion can Save Them, then let it be their own. Indeed, that is how it turned out to be for the Stigmatic Saints. Yes, once was enough! Hebrews 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Genjyo Yes, once was enough! Hebrews 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. The problem with all of the quotes which have Jesus approving of His own immanent slaughter is that they may have been superimposed by the authors of Doctrine that won out over what may have been The Truth. The furthest Gospel from Paulist Influence was Mathew, and Mathew does show the least signs of any Death Wish on the part of Christ. Then we have the Contradictions. In many of the Parables we see that Christ may be aware that He is about to be murdered, but He presents this immanent Murder not as a Sacrifice for Atonement, but as a Crime against Divinity. Then we have Christ's awful Curse on Jerusalem. If Christ went willingly to the Slaughter, then what accounts for this Divine Wrath? Then we have Christ in the Garden praying to be delivered -- praying for one more escape. If he had planned to die, then it makes no sense that He would be praying for His Mission to continue. Then we have the most famous Sermon -- the Sermon on the Mount. We do not have the doctrine of Salvation here -- a Get into Heaven free card -- but the Sermon of the Mount is what all of the other Higher Religions put forward, which is a call to Righteousness and Morality, which is the opposite of Salvation. Salvation from Sin is Satanic, for what else would the Devil want? Insistance and Instruction on Morality and the Spiritual, now, THAT is Religion.