Does God exist?

[Magroth]

Dont flame me or anything just listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANdMYNldd3c this guy dose bring up some valid points that actualy makes me belive god dosent exist. Or atleast he is not as mighty as we think he is..

[syzygy]

Asking if God exists is asking the wrong question. There is no answer to the question about God's existence or non-existence because God includes existence and non-existence. God is not a being because that would limit God, who is the Infinite. Now, asking if an anthropormorphic God exists literally is really what is being asked, but is not the same as asking if there is God. Infidelguy shows how silly it is to take it literally, but he doesn't go beyond that. Any anthropomorphic feature given to God is not God; it is God seen from a human perspective. We must remember that God is not limited, and therefore cannot be defined. Humans however are limited and so we inevitably define things so that we may understand them. This is all good except when it comes to things that cannot be expressed by human language, i.e. God. When people use human language to express ideas about God, we must keep in mind that it is always incomplete. So infidelguy has it right to not take these things literally, but he stops there and thinks he has proven something profound. This is equally true about myths. Infidelguy is right in taking Adam and Eve as a myth instead of a literal series of events, but he is wrong in thinking that myths are unreal. Myths do not make rational sense, this much is obvious. All infidelguy does is points out the obvious and takes it to be an explaination for its unreality. It is too bad he doesn't question why myths are not rational because it is the reason why they exist. They are trying to express those things which are beyond our rational thought. You cannot take them literally or else they become silly. They are not a series of historical events, they are symbols for real spiritual events happening right now. They are expressing things which are beyond our conception of space and time. They should be used for personal reflection, and the more you put into them the more you get out of them. This is the problem with people like infidelguy: he is right in not taking these things literally, but he stops there and thinks he has proven something. Go beyond this! These things are the way they are for a reason, and if you make an attempt to understand why they are the way they are, you will come to some actual knowledge.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Magroth Dont flame me or anything just listen to this this guy dose bring up some valid points that actualy makes me belive god dosent exist. Or atleast he is not as mighty as we think he is.. Hello Margroth. After countless discussion over the same topic, it seems to me that faith is the deciding factor if he exist or not. Even if he does not in reality it does not mean he does not exist in countless lives.

[syzygy]

[quote] Hello Margroth. After countless discussion over the same topic, it seems to me that faith is the deciding factor if he exist or not. Even if he does not in reality it does not mean he does not exist in countless lives. Howetzer, can you explain this a little more? What do you mean by "in reality" and "in countless lives"? Thanks. And yes, welcome Margroth. Sorry to dive into a metaphysical discussion, but the types of things infidelguy speaks about come up a lot here and I think he is only touching the surface of things. Many people in our time are skeptical about religion (and for good reason!), but they stop questioning at a certain point. The literal interpretation is ridiculous - I hope this much we can agree on - but there is so much more than that! Take it how far you need to.

[Howie]

Originally posted by syzygy Howetzer, can you explain this a little more? What do you mean by "in reality" and "in countless lives"? Thanks. And yes, welcome Margroth. Sorry to dive into a metaphysical discussion, but the types of things infidelguy speaks about come up a lot here and I think he is only touching the surface of things. Many people in our time are skeptical about religion (and for good reason!), but they stop questioning at a certain point. The literal interpretation is ridiculous - I hope this much we can agree on - but there is so much more than that! Take it how far you need to. By reality I mean --- true physical existence. Let us say that God or Jesus does NOT exist at all. We ofcoarse do not and cannot prove it other wise. But in either case, he metaphorically exists in thousands of people. In their mind. I agree. Some discussions just have to go beyond a summamry to do it any justice.

[Gawain]

This is why it is called 'faith'. If we knew as a cold hard fact that God existed, what would be the point of free will? We would gain nothing from it. We choose whether or not to believe in Him. Personally, I think that God leaves it to us to believe on purpose. Its all a matter of choice. One big reason for me to believe in Him, is that I don't see how the Big Bang, just a natural explosion, resulted in sentient intellectual beings billions of years later.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Gawain This is why it is called 'faith'. If we knew as a cold hard fact that God existed, what would be the point of free will? We would gain nothing from it. We choose whether or not to believe in Him. Personally, I think that God leaves it to us to believe on purpose. Its all a matter of choice. One big reason for me to believe in Him, is that I don't see how the Big Bang, just a natural explosion, resulted in sentient intellectual beings billions of years later. Hello Margroth. After countless discussion over the same topic, it seems to me that faith is the deciding factor if he exist or not. Even if he does not in reality it does not mean he does not exist in countless lives.

[Gawain]

...But do we exist?

[syzygy]

Originally posted by Gawain ...But do we exist? From who's perspective?

[Gawain]

How can we prove or disprove that God exists if we can't prove our own existence? One might think they exist, but they cannot prove that to anyone. I think I exist, but I can't prove that to you. Hell, I can't prove to myself I exist. If we cannot prove our own existence to others, how can others prove to us that we exist? Therefore, we cannot prove God's existence. Even if God were to enter our plane of theoretical existence, that still would not prove His existence. Now my question is: what qualifies as proof of existence?

[Alric]

Thats why I don't believe god will punish you for not believing in him. I don't think he cares if you believe in him. I think he just wants you to be a good person, something that you don't need proof to be.

[LunarMoon]

As I have a poor modem could you please summarize the points he made?

[Leo Volont]

Oh, the Infidel Guy.... he never even checks in with his own Forums. He has some little asskiss moderators that sub for him. And when you kick their ass good and hard enough, they ban you. You see, they are paying good cold hard cash for that Bandwidth, and they have their own Propaganda Agenda. As soon as you make a point against them, you are out of there for good. But I really wonder why a Black Guy would be so motivated to accrue Atheistic Credentials. Does he honestly think the Free Masons would ever take a Black... oh wait, there WAS Clarence Thomas... and Colin Powell. Well, I gues if you are Black and still want to have a sucessful career, you can always attack God and join the Free Masons.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Leo Volont Oh, the Infidel Guy.... he never even checks in with his own Forums. He has some little asskiss moderators that sub for him. And when you kick their ass good and hard enough, they ban you. You see, they are paying good cold hard cash for that Bandwidth, and they have their own Propaganda Agenda. As soon as you make a point against them, you are out of there for good. Well, since I lurk there regularly I feel a little obligated to clear this up. He's talking about iidb and if you'd ever been there you'd notice people with "opposing agendas" are quite welcome, provided they can support their arguments with evidence or logic and not be abusive about it. Which, co-incidentally, would be why you were banned, Leo. Not because of some "masonic plot", but just for (repeatedly) being abusive. -spoon

[.jared.]

This guy backs nothing up. I don't agree with the characteristics he gives god. He uses no quotes from any form of scripture. He just says off the top of his head. GOD IS (insert random word here).

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by spoon Well, since I lurk there regularly I feel a little obligated to clear this up. *He's talking about iidb and if you'd ever been there you'd notice people with "opposing agendas" are quite welcome, provided they can support their arguments with evidence or logic and not be abusive about it. *Which, co-incidentally, would be why you were banned, Leo. *Not because of some "masonic plot", but just for (repeatedly) being abusive. -spoon As long as they can be handled they are welcome. Of course they find problems with people who kick their asses. The rules for the debate is that Theists must lose. If they want to remain blameless and above suspicion then they should abide by freedom of speech. But they ban people, and it is never people who agree with their agenda.