A thought about Christianity.

[StephenT]

I pieced this little bit together in school today. I like it. Jesus makes a lot of comments in the gospels distinguishing himself from God. Also, Matthew, Mark, and Luke (possibly John, but don't know) never declare Jesus as God or at a God level, but call him as authority on Earth. I think that there may be two instances where he calls himself God, but there are many occurrences where clearly distinguishes himself from God. This means that Jesus and his disciples basically viewed Jesus as a prophet instead of God. A couple of these instances are: (When a disciple asks about when the world will end.) "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mark 13:32) "I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (John 20:17) For Christianity to work, though, Jesus has to be God, just in another form pretty much. There's also the Holy Ghost which finishes the three-part God. The reason for the three instead of two is because things that come in threes have been proven to be more appealing, which is why you see tons of things that are grouped in threes or repeated three times. Everything sounds catchier and more appealing. Everything from Bacon, Lettuce, Tomato to Location, Location, Location. Two and four don't compare. The other problem is that Jesus was Jewish. This means that Christianity had to be a modified form of Judaism, which is why the Old Testament is in the Bible. If Christianity only included the New Testament, it would be a completely different religion, and since Jesus was Jewish, that would negate Christianity. Since the Jewish God requires that he is the only one to be worshiped, the answer was to take Jesus and combine him with God. This makes Jesus and God one, which means that there is only one God. God is omnipotent, so he can be both. Because of the three rule as I stated above, the Holy Ghost is also incorporated. Now there's a loophole that has been passed with the multiple personalities of a single entity. The only remaining problem brings us back to the start. Jesus negating his portrayal as God and his disciples' views of him mean that he actually isn't part of God. If he isn't, we might as well take away the Holy Ghost because the number two fails. Now we're right back to 2000 years ago with Judaism. If only Jesus had named himself as God or the Church had edited those parts. Comments/Discussions

[Sornaensis]

I think any christian reading this should sit down. Their ideology just got pwned pretty hard.

[StephenT]

I think any christian reading this should sit down. Their ideology just got pwned pretty hard. That's what I thought when I came up with it!

[NonDualistic]

If you take time to look at books and writings that the Organized Christian Church chose to leave out of the bible, there is material there that is related to early Christianity that paints the faith to seem to have more in common with Buddhist and Hindu traditions than with what has evolved as modern Christianity. If you read some of the early history, most of those following such a Christianity were outright killed by the Church or Roman Catholic Church. Whats left is what you see today, a well polished shell, but nonetheless empty.

[Sornaensis]

I've heard about stuff that was cut and left out, yes, but nothing in depth. Oh and I'm glad to see I am not the only one who writes in school like this .

[Riot Maker]

Who is all powerful? 1 Chronicles 29:11 (God) Philippians 3:20-21(Jesus) Who is all knowing? 1 John 3:20(God) Colossians 2:2-3(Jesus) Who is present everywhere? Proverbs 15:3(God) 2 Corinthians 2:14(Jesus) Who is Lord of Sabbath? Genesis 2:3(God) Matthew 12:8(Jesus) Who is the great "I am?" Exodus 3:14(God) John 8:58 (Jesus) Who is the only creator? Isaiah 44:24(God) John 1:3 (Jesus) Who is the only savior? Isaiah 43:11(God) Acts 4:12(God) Who will judge mankind? Isaiah 3:13, 14(God 2 Corinthians 5:10 (Jesus) *Top ones are God and bottom ones a Jesus* Who will judge between the sheep and goats? Ezekiel 34:17 Matthew 25:31-33 Who sent the prophets? Jeremiah 7:25 Matthew 23:34 Who resurrected Jesus? Acts 4:10 John 10:17-18 Who is "coming in glory?" Isaiah 40:5 Matthew 24:30 Who is our Father? Isaiah 63:16 Isaiah 9:6 Who is the "first and last?" Isaiah 44:6 Revelation 1:17 Who is Rock of salvation? Samuel 22:32 Corinthians 10:4 Who is Stone of stumbling? Isaiah 8:13-15 Peter 2:8 "One crying in the wilderness" came to prepare a way for whom? Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 3:3 "Who is eternal? Genesis 21:33 Micah 5:2 Who is the fountain of living waters? Jeremiah 17:13 John 4:10-14 Who resurrects the dead? Acts 26:8 John 6:40 Who gives rewards to man? Isaiah 40:10 Matthew 16:27 Who has all authority and power? Chronicles 29:11 Matthew 28:18 Who gives power and authority to man? Psalms 68:35 Luke 9:1 Who forgives sin? Chronicles 7:14 Matthew 9:6 Who sent the Holy Spirit? John 14:16 John 16:7 Who has the greatest name? Nehemiah 9:5 Philippians 2:9 Whom are we to worship? Exodus 34:14 Revelation 5:12-13 Who is the good Shepherd? Genesis 48:15 John 10:14 Who searches for the lost sheep of Israel? Ezekiel 34:11 Matthew 15:24 Who is "Lord of Lords?" Deuteronomy 10:17 Revelation 17:14 To whom shall every knee bow? Isaiah 45:22-23 Philippians 2:10 Who is the righteous branch of David? Jeremiah 23:5-6 Jeremiah 33:15 Who alone is Holy? Samuel 2:2 Acts 3:14 Whose blood cleanses us? Acts 20:28 John 1:7 The world was created for whom? Proverbs 16:4 Colossians 1:16 Who is above all? Nehemiah 9:6 Romans 9:5 Who is forever the same? Psalms 102:24-27 Hebrews 1:8-12 Who is our light? Psalms 27:1 John 8:12 Who is the way or path? Psalms 16:11 John 14:6 Who is in charge of the angels? Psalms 103:20 Thessalonians 1:7 Who gives us rest? Exodus 33:14 Matthew 11:28 Who gives eternal life? Proverbs 19:23 John 3:36 We are the bride of whom? Isaiah 54:5 2 Corinthians 11:2 Who tests the heart and mind? Jeremiah 17:10 Revelation 2:23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, "God with us." Matthew 1:23 And fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and, "God has visited His people!" Luke 7:16 In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God. John 1:1 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. John 1:18 He [Jesus]... was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:18 I and the Father are one. John 10:30 The Jews answered Him [Jesus], "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." John 10:33 You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. John 13:13 Jesus said to him, "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, `Show us the Father?'" John 14:9 And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5 Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28 ...the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4 ...Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, Philippians 2:6 ...to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, Colossians 2:9 God was manifest in the flesh... 1 Timothy 3:16 ...our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; 1 Timothy 6:15 God...in these last days has spoken to us in His Son...And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature... Hebrews 1:2-3 But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever... Hebrews 1:8 ...the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; Titus 2:13 I was going to put more but i ran out of room

[Sornaensis]

I pointed out this confused fact in my thread as well.

[Riot Maker]

I pointed out this confused fact in my thread as well. Expand. What do you think of it. Let's keep it local to this thread.

[Sornaensis]

I mainly just pointed out that Christians can't really decide who saves you or who is "The Alpha an Omega" Just go to church. Jesus and god are sysnonymous there. Which makes no sense considering the vast differences that they also point out between the two.

[Grod]

What is the Holy Ghost anyway?

[Sornaensis]

No one knows. Filler art?

[Riot Maker]

I mainly just pointed out that *MOST* Christians can't really decide who saves you or who is "The Alpha an Omega" Just go to church. Jesus and god are sysnonymous there. Which makes no sense considering the vast differences that they also point out between the two. Let's disect it a bit furthor. Jesus does not teach in direct statements Jesus would not say "I am God" directly. His disciples asked Him why He taught this way. His answer was: And He answered and said to them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matthew 13:11-13) "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14) Ok look at that closely. Obviously if the son of man were humn he would not be able to establish an eternal kingdom. Attributes that are listed in that verse are distinguishable by God. "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (John 5:18) Probally the most straight forward evidence form the bib that we know jesus is God in the NT In the OT we have a clear cut example that jesus christ is good. It's hard to refute this. "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6) The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness. (Jeremiah 23:5-6) The title, "The LORD Our Righteousness" indicates that the Messiah is God. The Hebrew word translated "LORD" is yhvh (Yahweh), which is the personal name of God. If you want to delve deeper into this for you i can, but it's perrty evident that jesus is in fact God.

[Sornaensis]

THen the New Testament Fails, and so does the trinity. If Jesus == God, then the point of the Human Avatar was rather pointless and time consuming. And then there is no jesus. Jesus dies 2000 years ago. He is gone. Accordingly, only god would exist. And "The holy Spirit" whatever the hell that even is.

[Riot Maker]

THen the New Testament Fails, and so does the trinity. If Jesus == God, then the point of the Human Avatar was rather pointless and time consuming. The way i see is that God promissed a "avatar" and he was conducting through him. This was his way of doing what he wanted to accomplish. Jesus dies 2000 years ago. He is gone. Accordingly, only god would exist. Why? Christians belive in an after-life so whats stopping jesus from having one?

[Sornaensis]

Because: 1. God is Jesus; Jesus is God There is no point separating them. 2. Jesus's body wouldn't have a spirit, because he was god. He would die, and be god.

[Riot Maker]

Because: 1. God is Jesus; Jesus is God There is no point separating them. 2. Jesus's body wouldn't have a spirit, because he was god. He would die, and be god. I like what you have said here and this is what im thinking right now. Jesus was confined to human body which in turn left him without all of the attributes one associates with God. For our God to have less than God like abilities at any point in time we cannot consider him a God. So with that you are saying that at one point christianity had no God because God was roaming the earth? Now you could just of easily turn the question back around on me but heres the twist. If God was all powerful he could make a saviour that is from him. As we know jesus talked to God on diffrent occasions so it would seem that jesus being confined to a human body would be the direct work of God which is still in existant because we would need a God at all times with Godly attributes. im having a hard time getting this across but bare with me here Jesus=God-attributes Therefore God is still in exsistance with all his Godly attributes. Sorta like a wattered down version of himself.

[Sornaensis]

That's what I would think.

[Riot Maker]

That's what I would think. So are we in agreement that God if he was all powerful could exsist as a fully attributed God (somewhere) and be confined to a human body at the same time (on Earth)?

[Sornaensis]

He's all-powerful, remember?

[Riot Maker]

He's all-powerful, remember? Right, I think it would fit in to the parameters because he promissed him self in flesh and blood(human) and the blood is the only way to heaven. So it would seem that he had to make himself flesh and blood in order to keep his word.

[Sornaensis]

Yes, exactly. But I was talking mainly about the trinity and Jesus not so much god's powers.

[Riot Maker]

Yes, exactly. But I was talking mainly about the trinity and Jesus not so much god's powers. I'll get back to this thread about the trinity after i look at it more. I haven't really studied it as much as i would like but i'll try and present an argument for it in a bit.

[StephenT]

Riot, thanks for posting all of those verses. There's a problem that I see though: While there are many verses that compare God and Jesus with much liking, whenever Jesus flat out says that he isn't God, I tend to think that something is wrong. Most of that other stuff is from other's views of Jesus and God also. When people believe that Jesus is God, of course they will write so, but whenever your own book claims to have Jesus say that he isn't God, it really rebutes the others, am I right? Also, what you both were talking about with God being able to be Jesus and God at the same time, I never delved into that, and stuck with the omnipotent clause in the original writing.

[Sornaensis]

No, I was just talking about the reduncandcy or the trinity.

[StephenT]

Oh. That's a whole other argument on the logistics of whether or not sending Jesus makes any sense. I also don't see the point in sending Jesus. If they are one in the same, and God is a benevolent, all-forgiving God, then there would be no reason to send Jesus. Also, this kind of makes me think. Christianity is basically Judaism with some added schizophrenia.