The Keeper/ Ne-yo/ Tsen Showdown Thread

[Tsen]

So, here's how things are going to work. Keeper says he needs five days before he'll be able to post, apparently he won't be around the forum much until then, being the holidays and all. When he gets back, he will PM me telling me he's ready. The format will be: 1. I post an overview of why the Bible is not factually correct. Because this is a consolidated, all-in-one thread, it will be long. I will be sure to label and number all of my points. 2. Keeper will post a rebuttal to my points. Instead of using quotes embedded in the post, I ask that he just copy/paste the numbers and labels to 1.) Keep space to a minimum, 2.) Make reading easy, and 3.) Prevent the bulletin system from screwing with the posts (Ice has limited the number of quotes in a post). 3. Keeper posts an overview of why the Bible is factually correct. Again, I ask that he number and label his points to make things as neat and orderly as possible. 4. I post a rebuttal to Keeper's points. This WILL take a while! Since we're trying to cut all the bulk on the Religion/Spirituality forum into a single thread, we want the posts to be well reasoned and thought out. Do NOT be surprised if my first post takes a few weeks to finish, or if Keeper's replies take a similar amount of time! After the posts are up, a new thread will be created with a poll. The options in the poll will be: Option A) Believe the Bible to be factually correct and did so before this thread Option B) Believe the Bible to be scientific fact and didn't before this thread Option C) Believe the Bible to be factually incorrect, did so before this thread Option D) Believe the Bible to be factually incorrect, did not believe so before this thread The reason the poll will not be up now is to prevent people from answering before me and Keeper have finished exchanging posts, and thus not accurately construing the true statistics. While me and Keeper are posting, DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD!I have created a "Showdown Commentary" thread for that. To make this as neat and orderly as possible, I ask that you allow ONLY me and Keeper to post in this thread. Understandably, several people on both sides of the issue WILL wish to voice their input to this thread. If that is the case, please PRIVATE MESSAGE me or Keeper, depending on which side of the argument you wish to provide input to. Again, DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD! When Keeper is ready, I will prepare and post the first salvo in the showdown. I'm estimating that this will take a week, but it could take longer. The rules will be: -Don't use quotes of posts--just post the topic number or letter followed by your reply to that point. This is to keep space to a minimum. -In your rebuttal, you may not use points not brought up in the preceding post. -No links in rebuttals. Images are allowed. -In argument posts (as opposed to rebuttal posts) you may use links, but only as a preemptive rebuttal. For example, I used a single link in my post, which was a list of falsely attributed errors of radiometric dating. In that case, the link was not necessary to my arguments, it just prevents you from using the information within it as a rebuttal. In Ne-Yo's post, for example, he may post a link explaining why two verses in the Bible really don't contradict each other, which would stop me from using their contradiction as an argument against them. He may not, however, post a link to a site containing a list of fulfilled Biblical prophecies--instead, he would have to summarize the contents and post a summary instead. This rule is to ensure that neither one of us abuses links and save time on the reader's part. Because the point of this thread is to cut down on pointless, meandering threads and put all of our arguments into a single large thread, I ask that Keeper (and Ne-Yo, if he chooses to participate) keep their posts in the Religion/Spirituality forums to a minimum. In return, I will do the same. So, DO NOT HASSLE KEEPER OR ME ABOUT NOT REPLYING TO OTHER THREADS! We are only human, and we can only do so much at once, and I fully expect this thread to be taking a lot out of both of us. While we are waiting, PLEASE keep your replies, commentary, suggestions, etc. in the SHOWDOWN COMMENTARY thread. Let the duel begin, and one last time, PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD!

[Tsen]

Prelude: Hello everybody, this is the first post in a series of four. Two by me, two by Keeper or Ne-Yo. In this post, I will post a brief overview of why the Bible cannot possibly be factually accurate and scientifically plausible. For the sake of simplicity, I am writing this as a counter to a LITERAL interpretation of the Bible and the belief in Biblical inerrancy. Since both Keeper and Ne-Yo appear to uphold such a view of the Bible, this is the position I will work at refuting. Factual Inaccuracy of the Bible I-The Genesis Story 1-Time Period—Scientific Dating Methods The Genesis story puts the date on the creation of the world at roughly 4,000 BC—about six thousand years ago. Quite simply, this is ridiculous. Radiometric dating consistently dates the world as being 4.567 billion years old. Some argue that this is not accurate, and that C14 dating, K/Ar dating, or radiometric dating is inaccurate. To date, properly used radiometric tests have NEVER given an inaccurate or misleading date. Fundamentalists like to point at such examples as different pieces of a mammoth hide that dated several thousand years apart. True enough, they did date differently--after one of the pieces was soaked in glycerine, a biological compound containing "new" carbon which threw off the dates. Finally, radiometric dating of K/Ar, C14, Ar40/Ar39, U/Pb and several other techniques ALL give concisely corresponding dates, ALL of which agree PERFECTLY with recorded history. (For a full rebuttal of all arguments against radiometric dating, go here) Going beyond radiometric dating, comparisons of our star, the sun, to other stars in the galaxy, provides a good relative age for our solar system. It happens to coincide quite nicely with the dates obtained with radiometric dating. Estimates using the temperature of the earth, the composition and cooling rate also give the same date. In fact, every single method we've used has confirmed the age of the earth to be just over four billion years. In retrospect, six thousand seems like an almost arbitrary date—which, in fact, it is. In fact, every religion, up to and including Christianity, seems to have placed an arbitrary date on the age of the earth. 2-Time Period—Recorded History Not only is 6,000 years ridiculous in light of scientific estimates of the age of the earth, it also would mean that the world was created AFTER societies had already developed, and AFTER recorded history began. In fact, at 4,000 BC, the world had already entered the Bronze Age! Egypt's calendar was created in 4121 BC! So, how is it possible that the world was created at roughly 4,000 BC, but simultaneously Egypt has already been founded, has a significantly large population and has developed an accurate calendar? I have a more extensive list of events predating the date placed on the Christian creation myth posted elsewhere. 3-Original Sin So, after the world has been created, God puts Adam in the Garden of Eden, then yanks out one of his ribs and magics it into Eve, the first woman, he puts the magnificent “Tree of Knowledge” into the garden and forbids the two from eating its fruit. Then, when they succumb to temptation from the devil, he kicks them out of the garden and curses them and all their children. This has several problems: A-Why was the devil allowed in the garden? Why was the devil even in existence? Since God created everything, did he also create the devil? Whether he did or didn't, why didn't he UN-create him when he rebelled? I'm not saying anything painful—just zap him out of existence. Or, at the least, why didn't he prevent him from entering the world and tempting his “children”? B-Why did God put the tree in the garden in the first place? He knew he didn't want Adam or Eve eating from it, so why did he still leave it there? It still seems like leaving a child in a room with a box of dirty hypodermic needles. Since partaking of the fruit led to the “fall” of humankind, it seems to me that it would've been better not to have left anything that would cause that kind of suffering out in the open. I mean, why did the tree have to be created in the first place? C-Why did God HAVE to punish them for partaking of the fruit? He's omnipotent and omniscient, so he would've KNOWN that they'd eat the fruit, but he still put it there knowing the outcome. Further, he created Adam and Eve, KNOWING that they would give in to temptation and eat the fruit. But STILL, he persisted in creating them that way, and in placing the tree there, and STILL punished them for doing so? A simple question—Who's fault is it, then? Adam and Eve's? I think not. Seems to me that the God who created them in a way that he knew they would succumb to temptation, then put them in a situation where they would be tempted, and all the while knowing the outcome, is the one at fault. So, according to Christian myth and the Bible, we are being punished for something we did not do. Not only that, but something that Adam and Eve supposedly did, but only did because God created them in a manner which meant they had no choice. II-The Flood 1-Source of the Water One of the many problems with interpreting the flood story literally is simply, where did the water come from? According to the Bible, the waters rose to fifteen cubits above the highest mountains. A quick calculation shows that this would require 4,493,361,000 cubic kilometers of water. Divide by forty days, and you get 220 meters of water per day. That's like having a fire hose aimed at a toy boat. Creationists have posed a few explanations in the past, so I will cover them briefly: A-A translucent layer of water above the atmosphere existed Quite simply, this is impossible. Especially with the levels of the flood waters suggested in the flood myth. A layer containing only 4 inches of precipitable water would raise the temperature of earth's atmosphere to well over 144 degrees. That isn't the temperature at the equator, that's the average temperature. A canopy of 12 inches of precipitable water would raise the temperature of earth so high that the oceans would boil. If a layer existed large enough to flood the earth on the levels in the Bible, it would raise the pressure of earth's atmosphere from 15 PSI to about 970 PSI, and put the temperatures far beyond what is survivable by humans, animals or plants. B-Flood waters came from a layer of water underground, which ruptured the crust, shot into the atmosphere, and fell as rain. This, also, is impossible. The earth heats up the further you go down, even at 2 miles deep the temperature is between 260 and 270 degrees. The flood described in the Bible would require massive amounts of water, from far more than 2 miles underground. Said water would be superheated steam when released. The heat dissipating into the atmosphere would've fried Noah. C-Where did the water go? Now, we've got 4,493,361,000 cubic kilometers of water floating about. No idea where it came from, but there it is. So...where does it go? Did Jeebus come flying down on a magic carpet (or that snazzy chariot of fire he's got. Him and Apollo...dang, I want one of them.) and snap his fingers? Poof! No water? Did aliens abduct it? Seriously. 4,493,361,000 cubic kilometers. And it just...disappeared? Seriously? 2-Problems With The Ark The Ark itself is the source of many more problems for the flood myth. A-Building the Ark A large boat nowadays requires hundreds if not thousands of people working for several years to construct it. People with extensive experience and knowledge when it comes to shipbuilding. And we're expected to believe that Noah, being over 500 years old at the time, and a few helpers, built a wooden boat with crude hand tools in a world filled with conniving and malicious criminals in only a few years? Bogus! The HMS Victory, which was being produced at an extremely rapid rate for the time, took three years to complete, not including time for the wood to season and took about 6000 trees worth of oak! So Noah, with maybe one fifth the construction crew size and no experience to speak of, cut down over 6,000 trees, processed the wood, laid out the plans and built the ship? And, in the mean time, we're expected to believe that a world filled with people so evil God decided to kill them all and start over DIDN'T torment Noah or sabotage his works? Seems to me it would have taken most of his 500 year life just to build the ship. B-Materials Wooden boats have a size limit. Chinese treasure ships and the larger wooden battleships came very close to it, and represent the upper size boundaries for wooden craft. Any larger, the ship collapses in on itself. No ifs, ands or buts. It just doesn't work. Second, you have the problem of pitch. A ship without pitch would be exceedingly leaky, and wouldn't exactly make it far before going under. So Noah says, “Hey, let's go get some pitch to seal up this ship!” Only problem being that pitch is an oil-based product. Where does oil come from? Remnants of plant and animal matter compressed underground for hundreds of thousands of years. But wait, the Christian myth tells us that the world's only 6,000 years old, and at Noah's time, only 2,000 or so...so where'd the pitch come from? Most Young Earth Christians claim that pitch and other oil-derived products were created during the flood. Problem is, Noah needed the pitch before the flood. Uh-oh. C-Specialized Conditions Animals are quite picky. To cater to every single species (or even “kind”) is simply impossible. Koalas, for example, require about two pounds of fresh eucalyptus every single day to survive. They can't have dried eucalyptus, because they cannot drink water, and obtain all their necessary moisture from the plant leaves. So did Noah have a couple of eucalyptus trees on the ark, growing in a damp, dark wooden ship? Hummingbirds, as well, need massive amounts of fresh food. Since they have such high metabolisms, they consume massive amounts of fresh nectar daily. So, did Noah have an entire flower garden, too? And how did the flowers grow? D-Workers Noah and seven others were on the ark according to the myth. How did they tend to the animals? A zoo with a hundred animals requires constant work from a large crew of workers. So how did Noah and seven others manage to keep up with the feedings, waste disposal, ship maintenance and otherwise tending the animals while still finding time to sleep, eat and survive? E-Waste Disposal The ark would have had to contain several TONS of food. Now...what happens to this food once it's been consumed? It comes back out. Only this time, it emits toxic gases, too. Lovely, eh? So the ark would need to have contained a waste disposal system the likes of which have never been seen, even on modern craft. How did Noah obtain the technology to build such a system? 3-After the Flood A-Travel Issues As there were only two (or seven, depending) of each species, how did they manage to travel thousands of miles back to their place of origin without being eaten, dying in accidents or of starving to death due to lack of their normal (specialized) food supply? B-Sacrifices Noah was ordered after the flood to kill one of each clean animal as a sacrifice. Now...excuse me if I don't get this. So, God kills every living thing on the planet. Then, once he's done, he orders Noah to kill some more! Because, of course, nothing says “I'm a kind, loving God” like demanding blood sacrifice after committing the largest mass-murder ever to be conceived. C-Repopulation So Noah, and seven others are left to repopulating the world in 4,000 years. Incest, eh? Lovely. D-Rainbow So, according to the Bible, God created the rainbow after the flood. Were the laws of physical optics changed that day? They must have been, as rainbows are extremely simple phenomena. How did light refract through water before that? Did the eyes of all creatures have to change also? How did we see color before that? Rainbows only form during rain. In the Bible, the rainbow appears several months after the rains have stopped and the waters have drained away. So was this a real rainbow, or a magical rainbow that needs neither sun nor rain? I think the most likely explanation is "none of the above". Rather, that seems to be the same sort of folk-tale-like explanation you'd expect from any other myth. Ever heard the Native American story of how the bear came to lose its tail? 4-Fossil Record The fossil record is extensive, and entirely contradictory to the flood. A-Dinosaurs on the Ark God commanded Noah to take two of every land animal onto the ark, right? Wouldn't this include dinosaurs, then? And how, pray tell, would he fit them? B-Fossil Organization Go get a big empty bottle. Put some large rocks, small rocks, and sand in, fill it with water, shake vigorously, and let it settle. The big rocks settle to the bottom, and the small ones on top, right? So why aren't fossils arranged that way? There are NO large fossils on the lower layers whatsoever. They exclusively wind up on the upper layers. Why? If it was really a flood that distributed their remains and not a deposition of individuals over time, they'd be on the bottom. Further, why is it that we can link evolutionary chains over time periods dating via radiometrics? If they were randomly assorted, why do we always find nice, chronological progressions of several species, notably the horse? C-Lack of Human Fossils Also, under these circumstances, we'd expect to find several modern creatures, including humans, mixed in with all the dinosaurs, right? Well, apparently not. You see, we've NEVER found a hippo in the same strata as a dinosaur. We've never found a single modern creature mixed in with dinosaur species. At all. We've also NEVER found a single human fossil in the same strata as dinosaur fossils. Coincidence? 5-Geographic Evidence A-Anomalies This is a brief list of anomalies not possible in a global flood: coal seams, interleaved between marine sediment layers. salt seams, which are produced when shallow seas dry up (not easy during a flood). coal seams, exhibiting signs of forest fire (not easy during a flood) rain-marks. dessication-cracks, when mud is baked dry in the sun wind-blown sand-dunes roots and burrows. Okay at the surface, but interleaved between layers of sediment? meteor impact craters dinosaur footprints. Some dino prints have been found on coal seams, which were supposedly created during the flood. unconformities - very common. Sediments are often tilted, raised, eroded by wind and rain, and then more sediment is deposited on top. B-The Grand Canyon -We know what to expect of a sudden massive flood, namely: a wide, relatively shallow bed, not a deep, sinuous river channel. anastamosing channels (i.e., a braided river system), not a single, well-developed channel. coarse-grained sediments, including boulders and gravel, on the floor of the canyon. streamlined relict islands. -The same flood that was supposed to carve the Grand Canyon was also supposed to lay down the miles of sediment (and a few lava flows) from which the canyon is carved. -The Grand Canyon contains some major meanders. Upstream of the Grand Canyon, the San Juan River (around Gooseneck State Park, southeast Utah) has some of the most extreme meandering imaginable. The canyon is 1,000 feet high, with the river flowing five miles while progressing one mile as the crow flies (American Southwest n.d.). There is no way a single massive flood could carve this. -Along the Grand Canyon are tributaries, which are as deep as the Grand Canyon itself. These tributaries are roughly perpendicular to the main canyon. A sudden massive flood would not produce such a pattern. -Sediment from the Colorado River has been shifted northward over the years by movement along the San Andreas and related faults (Winker and Kidwell 1986). Such movement of the delta sediment would not occur if the canyon were carved as a single event. -If a brief interlude of rushing water produced the Grand Canyon, there should be many more such canyons. Why are there not other grand canyons surrounding all the margins of all continents? -There is a perfectly satisfactory gradual explanation for the formation of the Grand Canyon that avoids all these problems. Sediments deposited about two billion years ago were metamorphosed and intruded by granite to become today's basement layers. Other sediments were deposited in the late Proterozoic and were subsequently folded, faulted, and eroded. More sediments were deposited in the Paleozoic and Mesozoic, with a period of erosion in between. The Colorado Plateau started rising gradually about seventy million years ago. As it rose, existing rivers deepened, carving through the previous sediments (Harris and Kiver 1985, 273-282). III-The Resurrection (Just a note--this is an argument against Biblical inerrancy and ONLY against Biblical inerrancy) 1. Matthew 28:1 states two women (Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary) came to the tomb; Mark 16:1 states it was three women (Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome); Luke 24:10 agrees it was three women but gives a different list of three than Mark (Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James); John 20:1 states it was only Mary Magdalene. 2. Mark 16:2 states "the sun had risen" at the time of this visit, while John 20:1 states "it was still dark." 3. Matthew 28:2 says "an angel" "came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it"; Mark 16:5 says the women encountered "a young man sitting at the right" of the tomb (rather than upon the stone); Luke 24:4 says they saw "two men" who "suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing"; in John 20:1, Mary Magdalene saw nothing other than a moved stone. 4. There is also a discrepancy as to whatever dialog occurred between this angel(s) or man (men) and the women: Matthew 28:5-7 and Mark 16:6-7 generally agree the women were told that Jesus had risen, and instructed to advise the disciples that "He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him" (Matthew 28:7), and ; Luke 24:6-7 contains no instruction to advise the disciples about an appearance by Issa in Galilee. 5. To whom did Jesus appear first: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary as Matthew 28:9 claims? Mary Magdalene only as Mark 16:9 claims? Cephas (Peter) and then the other disciples, as 1 Corinthians 15:5 claims? Matthew 28:9 claims that Issa appeared before the women even had reported to the disciples what the found (or didn't) at the tomb. Also in Mark 16:9 the appearance to Mary Magdalene was before Mary made any report to the disciples. However, John and Luke report no appearance before the women reported an empty tomb to the disciples. 6. Which disciples went to the tomb: Peter alone (Luke 24:12)? Peter and John (John 20:2-8)? Did the disciples believe the reports of the women (or woman) and proceed to Galilee, as Matthew 28:16 claims? Or did they disbelieve these reports as Mark 16:11 and Luke 24:11 claim? 7. In appearing to the disciples, to whom did Jesus first appear: All eleven together (Matthew 28:17-18)? Two of them on the road, then to all eleven together (Mark 16:12-14 and Luke 24:13-31)? To ten of the eleven (minus Thomas) together (John 20:19-24)? To Peter, then the others (1 Corinthians 15:5)? The story recounted in John 20:25-29 is all premised on an appearance of Jesus before the disciples at which Thomas was not present! Matthew 28:17-18, Mark 16:12-14 and Luke 24:13-31 all disagree with John about any such meeting taking place in the absence of Thomas! 8. In Acts and the Gospel of Luke, the disciples were commanded to stay in Jerusalem and, in fact, met Jesus there (see Acts 1:4 and Luke 24:33, 47, 49). In Matthew 28:10 and Mark 16:6-7, the disciples are commanded to go to Galilee, and in Matthew 28:16-18, we are told they see Jesus there, not in or near Jerusalem! 9. Mark says that after appearing before the eleven disciples together in Galilee, Jesus ascended to Heaven (Mark 16: 14, 19). Luke says Jesus ascended to Heaven at Bethany after walking with the disciples some time (Luke 24:50-51). John says Jesus appeared to the disciples at three times and that some of these appearances were near the Sea of Galilee (John 21:1, 14). According to Acts the disciples were at Mt. Olivet, a days journey from Jerusalem, when the ascension occurred (Acts 1:9-12). 10. In 1 Corinthians 15:5-8, it is claimed that Jesus appeared to more than five hundred witnesses before his ascent to heaven - a claim directly contradicted at least by Mark, who says the ascension occurred immediately after an appearance before the eleven disciples (Mark 16: 14, 19). 11.Matthew 28:9 - Jesus lets Mary Magdalene and another Mary hold his feet John 20:17 - Jesus forbids Mary to touch him because he hasn’t ascended to heaven yet, but a week later he lets Thomas touch him anyway. Conclusion: As obvious by the arguments above, the Bible cannot possibly be interpreted as being literally true, nor can it be considered free of error. Following this, Ne-Yo, assisted by Keeper, will be posting the Christian rebuttal. Afterwards, they will make a second post detailing their evidence why the Bible IS factually correct, and finally I will post again in my rebuttal to those points. EDIT: I forgot to add, in their reply, I would like Ne-Yo to, instead of using quotes, copy/paste the topics (all are numbered in Roman numerals for general categories, numbers for individual points, and letters for sub-points), and then type their rebuttal following the title. This will save space and make things more legible. If Ne-Yo or Keeper have any questions about my organization, just PM me and I'll fix anything I might have missed or organized oddly. I also ask that they keep links to a minimum, and if absolutely necessary, post a description of the purpose of the link, along with a summary of the information before posting the link, as I did in my segment on the age of the earth. Finally, to elaborate on one of the rules: In their rebuttal (the post immediately following this one), Ne-Yo will be limited to ONLY points I brought up. In other words, Ne-Yo can NOT post about a topic I did NOT mention in my post. In his summary of why the Bible is factually correct, following his rebuttal post, he can bring up whatever topic he'd like. This is to make things fair--I cannot reply to Ne-Yo's rebuttal, so if he brought up a point I would not be able to post a counter to it. Similarly, when Ne-Yo posts his arguments for why the Bible is factually correct, I cannot bring up a subject he does not mention in my rebuttal.

[Howie]

[pause in the action] Members. Tsen and Ne-yo have engaged in a commentary that they would like to keep as (to the topic) as they possibly can. They have even began a post for commentary HERE I politely ask that you try to uphold their wishes. Thanks in advance members. You corporation is greatly appreciated.

[Ne-yo]

Prelude: I will start by pointing out that the high degree of order and specificity in the universe demanded a preexisting intelligence. Once we see, however that the probability of life origination at random is so utterly minuscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favorable properties of physics, on which life depends, are in every respect deliberate. It is therefore almost inevitable that our own measure of intelligence must reflect higher intelligence, even to the limit of God. The Bible is not Inaccurate I-The Genesis Story 1-Time Period—Scientific Dating Method The old-earth idea was developed historically, not from letting the physical facts speak for themselves but by imposing anti-biblical philosophical assumptions onto the geological observations. Let's take a look at some facts in regards to our Home Planet Earth. First off there is evidence that not only points to a young Earth, but that clearly points to the Biblical time scale. Earth's magnetic field is decaying and points to an age for the Earth of 6,000–8,700 Helium diffusion rates of zircons that has been measured not only provide evidence for accelerated decay but also suggest an age for the Earth of 6000 ± 2000 years. Measured mitochondria DNA mutation rates point to an age for mankind of 6500 Pleochroic halos Radioactive inclusions in rock often cause concentric spheres of discoloration due to the damage caused by alpha particles as they are emitted by the radioactive substance. Pleochroic halos are the scars of radioactive decay, particularly alpha decay. Helioseismology The core of the sun produces deuterium from hydrogen fusion at 5 million degrees K. The heat is transferred from the core by convection currents so it could reach surface in days, not a million years. It also leads to an age for the sun based on the deuterium/hydrogen ratio of the local interstellar medium of 6,000-12,857 years. Accelerated Nuclear Decay The main assumption of radiometric dating is that the decay rates are constant with time. If the decay rate has varied significantly over time then any date based on radioactive decay is worthless. However, if radioactive decay has been happening for Billions of years then there is insufficient argon diffusion, insufficient lead diffusion, insufficient helium in the air, and too much Helium in Rocks. Recent experiments commissioned by the RATE group indicate that "1.5 billion years" worth of nuclear decay has taken place, but in one or more short periods 4000 - 8000 years ago. This would shrink the alleged 4.5 billion year radioisotope age of the earth to only a few thousand years. Tidal forces on the Earth / Moon system and it's effects shows a maximum age of the system of 1.2 billion years. The paleontological data Evolutionist's utilizes points to require the Earth to be slowing at a faster rate than is observed, and do not show the change in rate predicted by the laws of physics. Furthermore, there is no evidence in the paleontological data for the theory used to try to salvage the Earth model from this problem. So here we have independent dating methods that suggest an age for the Earth of about 6000 to 10,000 years. Radiometric Dating I could spend a lot of time on this subject alone but I'll keep it short and to the point because I have a lot of other topics to tackle. When dating rocks or other objects by radiometric, it is typically unknown and simply assumed whether these ratios of elements are the result of radioactive decay over time or other processes that have taken place in the rock. Some rocks have been measured with negative radiometric ages, in some cases in terms of millions of years. Isochron dating can also produce negative ages, by producing a negative slope. K-Ar and Ar-Ar can result in negative ages when atmospheric argon is considered. So if these are real dates then you can hold a rock in your hand that won't form for hundreds of thousands or even millions of years yet. Now in all fairness Ar-Ar dating can get the right age for a sample of known age, but it can also date samples as way too old, but without a known date there is no way of knowing when it is too old. One key factor is the fact that Ar-Ar dating needs a standard of "known" age. If the standard is of historically known age, such as would likely be used for testing Ar-Ar dating on sample of known age, then one would be more likely to get the correct age. For allegedly older samples K-Ar is used to "date" the standard and as such it still has the same problems as K-Ar dating. 2-Time Period—Recorded History According to evolutionists, Stone Age Homo sapiens existed for 190,000 years before beginning to make written records about 4,000 to 5,000 years ago. Prehistoric man built megalithic monuments, made beautiful cave paintings, and kept records of lunar phases.30 Why would he wait two thousand centuries before using the same skills to record history? The Biblical time scale is much more likely. 3-Original Sin/No significant problems A-The individual who was originally good and later took on the character and role of being the Adversary (i.e. "Satan") was created by God, as were the set of potentialities (from which his abilities would have later developed) B-I guess somehow, our moral choices don't exist. Some nebulous "wheels set in motion" are the sole active agents in this story. The billions of people referred to later in the argument, somehow do not have any involvement in this process-we have all simply disappeared as persons somehow. Somehow "hell" is not in any way connected with how we decide to treat one another (in spite of God's repeated pleas and warnings to this effect), and all moral choices (good or bad) are simply part of some deterministic, a-personal, Newtonian causal chain. The first domino fell over, hitting the next one, and the next one (hmmm, maybe even Satan was set up to fail?)...The deterministic worldview implied therein is no longer a plausible worldview, and hasn't been so for the last twenty or thirty years. The complex interactions between agents and intentions have gone far beyond some billiard-ball like "causal" and "object" interactions between "faculties" of will, intellect, and emotion. The situation involved in human choice and action is significantly more complex than you seem to be aware of. The position of "if it happened, then it was inexorable" is good metaphysical determinism, but fails in the light of the reality of agent causation. [Some of you will notice that the skeptic's deterministic position is remarkably close to some schools of theological orthodoxy today.] The character of conscious choice is quite complex, and it cannot be reduced to such simplicities as these. It is not simply a matter of there being helpless and gullible people in the garden, at the mercy of a superior intellect, while God is somehow arranging the stage so "the right inputs produced the right outputs" in strict Newtonian fashion! Such a shallow picture! What about the relationship between the serpent and the humans. Your skeptism makes you believe that the humans were no match for the serpent, and that the outcome was inevitable. And following this, is the conclusion/implications that the God who allowed such a superior maleficent intelligence to have access to the naïve and helpless little humans was setting them up for failure (and therefore 'orchestrating' their failure and subsequent doom of billions of souls, etc.). C-Causality 'scales up' to personal influences (which I do NOT in any way accept, observe, or even see how one could demonstrate it&#33, and that all effects are somehow ALREADY present (and fully-formed) in the 'cause'. These are patently metaphysical assumptions, and until you can somehow 'prove' them, I will have to cast my lot in with the more common-sense and observable notions that: [1.] As agents we have the ability to develop/suppress our innate/acquired potentialities (within ranges) [2.] As agents we are held accountable for these choices (e.g. if I choose NOT to develop my self-discipline) [3.] As agents we are able to 'aim' (through the power of negation of inner-selves, as in adolescence) our development in an OPPOSITE DIRECTION from that 'prescribed for us' by those who invested us with the potentialities. But perhaps maybe this is more suitable for you. [1.] As agents we should NOT be held accountable for our choices...so the Satans, Hitlers, Torquemadas, Pol Pots, child molesters, vandals against the elderly, serial killers and rapists, etc. should NOT be considered responsible agents...after all, they could hardly say 'no' to the impulses within them (in spite of the fact that billions of other people seem to be able to do so.) [2.] As agents we cannot say 'no' to our 'programming' either genetic or environmental. In other words, the two periods of early life known as adolescence (i.e. toddler (2-3), puberty (13-16)), which is DEFINED by negation of the internally developed parent-figure, CANNOT BE! We cannot say 'NO" to what standards and orientations that have been 'planted' in us up to that point. II-The Flood 1-Source of the Water According to the Bible the flood of Noah was caused by a forty day rain that was accompanied by an upsurgence of subterranean waters lasting for one hundred and fifty days. It is largely presumed that the latter was the principal supply of flood waters that covered the earth. However, there are many factors indicating a significant change in our atmosphere took place as a result of this catastrophe, and some have held instead to the fall of a vapor canopy as being responsible. Genesis 7:11-12 on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. The flood possibly began when the earth's crust was fractured releasing subterranean caverns of water and magma. The earth now exists as a mass of plates, which probably did not exist until the crust was intentionally broken by God releasing the subterranean water. Genesis 7:11-12 on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth The "springs of the great deep" mentioned in the passage above are believed to be a preflood subterranean water-table much like those that still exist today in remnant form. Unknown to many, much of the land under our feet resides upon massive bodies of water such as the Ogallala aquifer. The Ogallala Aquifer resides under several states in the US, and supplies continuous spring water such as the famous Artesian Wells (et al. Geysers). Even though these aquifers are largely depleted, today 40% of the drinking water in the United States comes from these ancient ground waters. The hydroplate theory postulates that all land masses were positioned upon vast aquifers at the beginning of creation. It is believed these massive bodies of water were triggered to "burst-forth" and flood the earth 2-The Ark A - Building the Ark The Ark was built for stability, not movement. A flat-bottomed barge like the Ark wouldn’t have problems with sag. If the lower deck were made of logs, four layers deep, it would have been very sturdy. If they were teak logs, especially specially treated by being buried for a while, the ark would have been especially seaworthy. Korean naval architects have confirmed that a barge with the Ark’s dimensions would have optimal stability. They concluded that if the wood were only 30 cm thick, it could have navigated sea conditions with waves higher than 30 m ref: (S.W. Hong et al., “Safety investigation of Noah’s Ark in a Seaway”, CEN Technical Journal 8(1):26–36, 1994. All the co-authors are on the staff of the Korea Research Institute of Ships and Ocean Engineering, Taijon.) B - Materials Pitch - Which is produced from plants by stress and has nothing to do with remnants of plant and animal matter compressed underground for any time period. Newton's theory In general, in any flow, layers move at different velocities and the fluid's viscosity arises from the shear stress between the layers that ultimately opposes any applied force. This is how the viscous liquid is produced which produce Risen the base product for Pitch. I don't think Noah had an issue with getting pitch from plants. C - Specialized Conditions The Bible indicates that the "Pre-flood" world was much different than it is today, and likely to have been of uniform temperature everywhere ( except at the poles). The drastic and extreme climatic difference we have today did not exist before the flood. In fact they are a result of the flood itself. When God created the animals, he instilled in them an ability to adapt. God foresaw the entrance of sin and its effect on His perfect world. God created His creatures with an incredible ability to survive in various climates. Some tropical animals can survive in cooler climates. And some animals that now live in Polar Regions can also survive in warmer temperatures. Today marsupials live mainly in Australia. Penguins live in the Southern Hemisphere, while polar bears live in the north. These diverse ecosystems did not exist prior to the flood C/A - Specialized Diets loss in genetic information, from thinning out of the gene pool by degenerative mutation. This suggests that the ancestors of such creatures, when they came off the Ark were not specialized. Thus they were hardier than their descendants, who carry only a portion of the original gene pool of information. In other words the koala's ancestor may have been able to survive on a much greater range of vegetation. Such changes do not require large time periods for animals under migratory pressure. The first small population that formed would tend to break up rapidly into daughter populations, going in different directions, each carrying only a portion of the gene pool of the original pair that came off the Ark D/E - Workers and Waste Disposal I combined these two because they are related and the same answer applies to both D and E. I'm sure it became extremely difficult with only 8 people to feed and water, to provide fresh air and sanitation for the huge menagerie of animals for a total of 371 days. However, a number of scientists have suggested that the animals may have gone into a type of dormancy. It has been said that in nearly all groups of animals there is at least an indication of a latent ability to hibernate or aestivate. Perhaps these abilities were supernaturally intensified during this period. With their bodily functions reduced to a minimum, the burden of their care would have been greatly lightened. 3-Post Flood A- Traveling When God created the animals, he instilled in them an ability to adapt. God foresaw the entrance of sin and its effect on His perfect world. God created His creatures with an incredible ability to survive in various climates. Some tropical animals can survive in cooler climates. And some animals that now live in Polar Regions can also survive in warmer temperatures. Today marsupials live mainly in Australia. Penguins live in the Southern Hemisphere, while polar bears live in the north. These diverse ecosystems did not exist prior to the flood (they are a result of it). Kangaroos did not have to hop all the way from Australia to get on the ark nor did Kangaroos need to travel continents to get to the ark. Today kangaroos only live in Australia. But prior to the flood, kangaroos and other animals most likely lived near Noah's home. Prior to the flood, the earth may have been one large landmass. Australia did not exist in its present location. Our present continents are shaped as a result of re-disposition of flood sediments, and receding flood waters. After the flood there were land bridges (because of a lower sea level) that connected many of the continents. Years later, the glaciers started to melt and the water level rose. This caused many land bridges to disappear. The animals that were on these continents would be stuck there. Keep in mind too, that many animals were brought to the United States by explorers. They did not travel there themselves. The same may be true for animals in Australia. For the animals that did migrate on foot, keep in mind one kangaroo would not have to hop all the way to Australia. A group could travel, dying and reproducing for many years along the way. There was probably a lot of trial and error looking for a climate that suited them, in combination with a amble source of food. It's not as if they had Australia as a goal. B - Sacrifices In reality when properly understood Noah took on 7 individual (not 7 pairs) animals and birds of each kind that were clean. Since these were clean animals and clean birds that would be used for food later, it would be important to have extra breeding stock. In reality there were 3 pair of clean animals and clean birds plus a seventh. The seventh one was to be offered as a sacrifice at the end of the flood (Gen. 8:20). If an animal were unclean, which the vast majorities were, then only one pair was taken aboard. C -Repopulation In modern times, human populations are seen to be increasing consistently at more than 1 percent per year. Allowing for disease, famine, wars, and so forth, let us take a much more conservative figure of 0.5 percent every year. At this rate, it would take only around 4,000 to 5,000 years, starting with eight people on Mt. Ararat, to reach today's population. D - Rainbow The scriptures never mentioned that this was the first rainbow. If it were I'm pretty sure it would've been mentioned so of course this was not the very first rainbow, However this rainbow was extraordinarily marvelous on a grand scale. 4-Fossil Record A -Dinosaurs They were not on the Ark B - Fossil Organization Massive fossil graveyards with evidence of plants and animals being washed into position. Huge sedimentary deposits (nearly three quarters of the earth's exposed surface is covered with sedimentary rock deposits) speak of large-scale coverage by water. The vast coal and oil fields of the world are further evidence of a vast flood catastrophe. No process occurring today can even remotely approach the magnitude of the catastrophe necessary to account for such a vast scale of universal burial of plants and other organic material. The chalk deposits of the world are universal. Chalk is formed from the skeletons of marine unicellular protozoa and algae, and can only settle out of relatively shallow water. In deep oceans, the calcium carbonate shells dissolve on the way down to the ocean floor. The chalk deposits are thus an indication of worldwide coverage of a relatively shallow sea. Chalk deposits of the same age are found in many areas of North America, Australia, Europe, Asia and Africa, and all of these deposits are resting on the same type of glauconitic sandstone. (Derek V. Ager, The Nature of the Stratigraphic Record, 2nd ed. London MacMillan Press Ltd., 1983) For these factors to be so universal, the same conditions must have existed universally. C - Human Fossil Records What about Russia where geophysicist found 1,500 tracks left by dinosaurs in the mountains in the southeast of the Republic? I guess you're thinking nothing special about that huh? However look closer- They also discovered a human footprint next to, in fact in the same strata as the prehistoric animals. 5-Geographical Evidence A - Evidence of A Great Flood Catastrophic plate tectonics are responsible for the migration of continents to their present location following the breakup of a single landmass known as Pangea. Katoomba Australia The sandstone, of which the Sisters are made, points to huge watery deposition. The valleys and gorges, shaped when the Sisters were carved, are evidence of immense watery erosion. The Biblical global Flood explains this deposition and erosion. Let's look a bit closer. It's not difficult to appreciate that the sandstone covers an immense area. From the lookout, we can see that the same rocks form steep cliffs all around the gorge. Before the magnificent valley was eroded, the sandstone strata covered a large area. Magnetic Field Reversals Magnetic fields are involved in the magma flow. The Secular community claims that about every 700,000 years the magnetic field reverses. But new evidence documented in Earth and Planetary Science Letters212/292-298 indicate that there is evidence for a very rapid reversal of the magnetic fields taking place in 15 days, the time needed for a pool of molten lava to cool.213 Michael Aarate a scholar has stated that lightning can cause local magnetic field reversals.214/170-181 Thus, we do not have a global planetary reversal of magnetic fields, but rather local reversal of magnetic fields which did not take long periods of time to come about. Evidence of Rapid Deposition in the Internal Characteristics of Strata Sequences The widespread physical similarity in the Cedar215 of strata in each sequence indicates that virtually identical conditions were prevalent laterally over broad areas. Sandstones and conglomerates, which form the basal and best preserved parts of many sequences indicate that widespread flood conditions once prevailed. Sequences are often thousands of feet in thickness with the coarsest material at the base progressively decreasing in coarseness toward the top. Mountains Uplifted after Most Sedimentation Many mountain ranges can be shown to have been uplifted after nearly all of the stratigraphic record was deposited. Underfed Streams and Rivers Global Evidence that most natural drainage systems drained off larger amounts of water at one time in the past. Massive, Rapid Erosion Evidenced of Massive Rapid Erosion at many locations worldwide, including the Grand Canyon. Other evidences are Existence of great "plunge pools": created as torrents of flood water and mud plunged off the continents. Existence of submarine canyons. Waterlines: found on the coasts of every continent. Evidence from studies of smaller scale catastrophes: studies of modern floods, volcanic eruptions. Flood legends found throughout the world. The Genesis Record itself. B- The Grand Canyon Ideas that the Colorado River eroded the canyon, or that enlargement of streams and gullies caused it, have been shown to be improbable. Both these theories have a difficult time explaining where the products of tens of millions of years of river erosion went. The crystalline-basement rocks exposed deep within the Canyon (schist, granite, and gneiss) represent some of earth's oldest rocks, probably from early in Creation Week. Tilted, deeply buried strata (the "Grand Canyon Supergroup") show evidence of catastrophic-marine sedimentation and tectonics associated with the formation of an ocean basin midway through Creation Week, and may include ocean deposits from the post-Creation, but pre-Flood world. The Canyon's characteristic horizontally stratified layers (the "Paleozoic Strata") are up to 4,000 feet thick [1,200 metres] and are understood to be broad sedimentary deposits in northern Arizona dating from the early part of Noah's Flood. Remnants of strata overlying the rim of Grand Canyon (the "Mesozoic Strata") are associated with a widespread erosion surface. Tectonics, sedimentation, and erosion during the last half of the Flood year as the Colorado Plateau was lifted more than a mile above sea level. The catastrophic erosion of Grand Canyon (probably a result of drainage of lakes) was associated with river-terrace gravels, lake sediments, landslide deposits, and lava flows of the post-Flood period,' Which indeed fits well into the framework of the Bible. III-The Resurrection (Same points as Tsen referenced they are labeled numerically) Vista 1. Matthew mentions Mary Magdalene and the other Mary at the burial and as setting out for the tomb. The angel speaks to "the women," who "ran to tell his disciples. And behold, Jesus met them."(27:55f.,61;28:1,5,8f.) If we had only Matthew we should take "the women" and "them" to be the Marys. But complicated movements of five women were apparently involved--Mary Magdalene left before the women entered the tomb, and the notifying of disciples required visits both to John's house and to Bethany. Probably only "the other Mary" was present at every point in the story and "the women" and "them" do not refer precisely to the two mentioned by name. Matthew is giving the detail necessary to convey his message, further elaboration would have been pointless distraction. He could of course have avoided any question by saying at verse 1 'certain women', but this would have been unnecessarily vague. His mention of Mary Magdalene and Mary of Clopas would have been suitable for three reasons: 1. It was they who set out together from Bethany as described at the beginning of his account. 2. Mary Magdalene was of special importance since she was the first person to see Jesus. 3. Mary of Clopas, however, was the one who was present throughout his whole narrative. Although he leaves out many details this is a judicious and accurate statement of what happened Vista 2. The Jewish Sabbath ran from sundown to sundown (NOT sunrise to sunrise)--the Sabbath would have been over the previous evening. John says that Mary bought spices the evening before the trip. John AND Mark describe the early morning trip by Mary and friends to the tomb. (On the way there, they were worried about the Stone--no one had been there yet, remember). Went they got there, the stone had been removed. At that point Mary heads back to where Peter and the disciples were. Nothing odd here. No contradictions. Actually, nothing even to explain, once you get the time-keeping terminology down. Vista 3. The Women's First Visit to the Tomb On Saturday evening three of the women decided to go back to the tomb belonging to Joseph of Arimathea, where they had seen Christ's body laid away on Friday at sundown. They wanted to rewrap His corpse with additional spices, beyond those which Nicodemus and Joseph had already used on Friday. There were three women involved (Mark 16:1): Mary Magdalene, Mary the wife (or mother) of James, and Salome (Luke does not give their names; Matthew refers only to the two Marys); and they had bought the additional spices with their own means (Mark 16:1). They apparently started their journey from the house in Jerusalem while it was still dark (skotias eti ouses), even though it was already early morning (proi) (John 20:1). But by the time they arrived, dawn was glimmering in the east (te epiphoskouse) that Sunday morning (eis mian sabbaton) (Matt. 28:1). (Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1 all use the dative: te mia ton sabbaton.) Mark 16:2 addst hat the tip of the sun had actually appeared above the horizon (anateilantos tou heliou--aorist participle; the Beza codex uses the present participle, anatellontos, implying "while the sun was rising"). It may have been while they were on their way to the tomb outside the city wall that the earthquake took place, by means of which the angel of the Lord rolled away the great circular stone that had sealed the entrance of the tomb. So blinding was his glorious appearance that the guards specially assigned to the tomb were completely terrified and swooned away, losing all consciousness (Matt. 28:24). The earthquake could hardly have been very extensive; the women seemed to be unaware of its occurrence, whether it happened before they left Jerusalem or while they were walking toward their destination. There is no evidence that it damaged anything in the city itself. But it was sufficient to break the seal placed over the circular stone at the time of interment and roll the stone itself away from its settled position in the downward slanting groove along which it rolled. The three women were delightfully surprised to find their problem of access to the tomb solved; the stone had already been rolled away (Mark 16:34)! They then entered the tomb, sidestepping the unconscious soldiers. In the tomb they made out the form of the leading angel, appearing as a young man with blazing white garments (Mark 16:5), who, however, may not have shown himself to them until they first discovered that the corpse was gone (Luke 24:2-3). But then it became apparent that this angel had a companion, for there were two of them in the tomb. The leading angel spoke to them with words of encouragement, "Don't be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified" (Matt. 28:5). Nevertheless they were quite terrified at the splendor of these heavenly visitors and by the amazing disappearance of the body they had expected to find in the tomb. Vista 4. The Angels Speak: "Why do you seek the living among [lit., 'with'--meta with the genitive] those who are dead? He is not here, but He has risen [Luke 24:5-6], just as He said [Matt. 28:6]. Look at the place where they laid Him [Mark 16:6], the place where He was lying [Matt. 28:6]. Remember how He told you when He was still in Galilee, saying that the Son of Man had to be betrayed into the hands of sinful men, crucified, and rise again on the third day" (Luke 24:6-7). After the angel had said this, the women in fact did remember Christ's prediction (especially at Caesarea Philippi); and they were greatly encouraged. Then the angel concluded with this command: "Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead!" Then he added: "Behold, He goes before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Lo, I have told you" (Matt. 28:7). No discrepancy here it seems pretty clear. Vista 5. Sequence of Events. [1.] After the actual resurrection had taken place, but before dawn, an earthquake occurred, an angel rolled away the stone from the entrance of the tomb, and the guards trembled and fled (Matt. 28:2-4). [2.] As Sunday morning was dawning, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and Salome approached the tomb, intending to anoint Jesus with the perfumed oil brought by other women who evidently set out later (see #7) . To their amazement they found the stone rolled away (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:1-4; John 20:1). [3.] One or more of the women entered the tomb and announced that the body was not there (an inference from John 20:2, where Mary Magdalene does not simply say, "The stone has been taken away"). [4.] Mary Magdalene immediately returned to tell Peter and John that the body had been removed (John 20:2). [5.] Mary (the mother of James and Joses) and Salome saw an angel ( = "a young man" in Mark) inside the tomb who announced the resurrection and directed the women to tell the disciples that Jesus would meet them in Galilee (Matt. 28:5-7; Mark 16:5-7). [6.] These two women returned to the city without greeting anyone on the way, for their holy awe rendered them temporarily speechless (Matt.28:8; Mark 16:8). [7.] Certain women from Galilee, along with Joanna (cf. Luke 8: 3), arrived at the tomb, carrying perfumed oil to anoint the body of Jesus. They met two "men" (= "angels"; cf. Luke 24:4, 23) and then returned to report the angels' message of the resurrection "to the Eleven and to all the rest" (Luke 24: 1-9,22-23) who had evidently now gathered together (c£ Matt.26: 56) . [8.] Meanwhile, informed by Mary Magdalene, Peter and John (and others?; Luke 24:24) ran to the tomb (without meeting Mary and Salome), observed the grave-clothes, and returned home (John 20:3-10; and Luke 24: 12. [9.] Mary Magdalene followed Peter and John to the tomb, saw two angels inside, and then met Jesus (John 20: 11-17; cf Mark 16:9). [10.] Mary Magdalene returned to inform the disciples that Jesus had risen (John 20:18; c£ Mark 16:10-11). [11.] Mary (the mother of James and Joses) and Salome met Jesus and were directed to tell his brethren to go to Galilee (Matt. 28:9-10). [12.] The disciples had now had reports concerning the empty tomb or the resurrection from three sources (viz., Mary Magdalene, Joanna and the women from Galilee, Mary [and Salome]), but they refused to believe these reports (Luke 24:10-11; cf. Mark 16:11). [13.] Jesus appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34; 1 Cor. 15 :5). [14.] During the afternoon Jesus appeared to two disciples on the way to Emmaus. They then returned to Jerusalem to report the appearance to the Eleven and others (Luke 24:13-35; c£ Mark 16:12-13). [15.] That evening Jesus appeared to the Eleven and others (Luke 24:33), Thomas being absent (Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-23; 1 Cor. 15:5; cf Mark 16:14). [16.] One week later Jesus appeared to the Eleven, Thomas being present (John 20:26-29) . [17.] Seven disciples had an encounter with Jesus by the Sea of Tiberias in Galilee (John 21: 1-22). [18.] The Eleven met Jesus on a mountain in Galilee (Matt. 28:16-20; cf Mark 16:15-18). [19.] Jesus appeared to more than five hundred people (Luke 24:44-49; 1 Cor. 15:6). [20.] He appeared to James (1 Cor. 15 :7) . [21.] Immediately before his ascension, Jesus appeared to the Eleven near Bethany (Luke 24:50-52; Acts 1:6-11; 1 Cor. 15:7; cf Mark 16: 19-20). VISTA 6. Peter and John were both at the tomb, however they did not arrive at the exact same time. The synoptic Gospels do not mention this episode, but it was extremely important to John, who therefore took pains to record it in detail. As the two men got closer to Joseph's tomb, they began to run in their eagerness to get there and see what had happened (John 20:34). John arrived there first, being no doubt younger and faster than Peter. Yet it turned out that he was not as perceptive as Peter, for all John did when he got to the entrance was stoop down and look into the tomb, where he saw the shroud, or winding sheet, of Jesus lying on the floor (v.5). But Peter was a bit bolder and more curious; he went inside the chamber and found it indeed empty. Then he looked intently at the winding sheet, because it was lying in a very unusual position. Instead of being spread out in a long, jumbled strip, it was still all wrapped together in one spot (entetyligmenon eis hena topon). Moreover, the soudarion ("long kerchief") that had been wound around the head of Jesus was not unwound and tossed on the shroud but was still wrapped together and lying right above it (vv.6-7). In other words, no one had removed the grave-clothes from the corpse in the usual way; it was as if the body had simply passed right out of the headcloth and shroud and left them empty! This was such a remarkable feature that Peter called John back and pointed it out to him. All of a sudden it dawned on the younger man that no one had removed the body from that tomb. The body had simply left the tomb and left the grave-clothes on its own power, passing through all those layers of cloth without unwrapping them at all! Then John was utterly convinced: Jesus had not been removed by other hands; He had raised Himself from the dead. That could only mean He was alive again. John and Peter decided to hurry back and report to the others this astounding evidence that Jesus had indeed conquered death and was alive once more. VISTA 7. Peter was the first of the male disciples to see his Lord alive after the Resurrection; for at some time after Mary Magdalene came back from her second visit to the tomb and her confrontation with Jesus there, Simon Peter must have had a personal reunion with Jesus. This we learn from Luke 24:34, where we are told that the disciples in the house of John Mark in Jerusalem had learned from Peter that he had already seen Jesus and had talked with Him, even before the two travelers returned from their journey toward Emmaus and reported back that they had broken bread with Jesus at the inn. VISTA 8. Acts 1:4 And while he was meeting with them he gave them the orders: “Do not withdraw from Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father has promised, about which you heard from me; The message given here was Jesus advising the disciples to await the wraith of the Father. They were not to look for Jesus in Jerusalem at least not for his accession but for his reign. Keep in mind no one knows the hour of the 2nd coming. Mark 13 30-33 Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 32 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. 33 Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is. We are not told whether the women actually entered the tomb once again, or whether they met Jesus just outside; but at any rate He apparently accosted them after they had arrived, and He greeted them (Matt. 28:9). (The Greek chairete here probably represents either the Hebrew shalom or the Aramaic Se lama'. Literally the Greek means "Rejoice!" whereas the Hebrew means "Peace!") Their reaction at seeing their risen Lord was similar to Magdalene's they cast themselves at His feet and kissed them as they clung to Him. Jesus reassured them as they were adjusting to the shock of seeing Him alive again, "Don't be afraid." Then He continued with a mandate similar to the one He had given to Magdalene: "Go and pass on the word [apangeilate] to My brethren that they are to depart for Galilee, and there they will see Me." It is highly significant that our Lord first revealed Himself in His resurrection body, not to the men, the eleven disciples themselves, but rather to three of the women among the group of believers. Apparently He found that they were even readier in their spiritual perception than the eleven men of His inner circle, on whom He had spent so much of His time during the three years of His teaching ministry. Be that as it may, it seems quite clear that Jesus chose to honor the women with His very first post-resurrection appearances before He revealed Himself to any of the men-- even to Peter himself. VISTA 9. In Acts 1.4-6 we learn that Jesus met with them on many different times after his resurrection, most instances of which he probably left by a disappearance or mini-ascension. Also the passage is an apparent ref to Luke 24 incident, so the mini-ascension in Luke is obviously different that the one in Acts. So I don't actaully see that these passages are referring to the same ascension. The Big One is the one of Acts. VISTA 10. Actually, these two events are not generally considered the same at all... The 500 was probably the appearance in Galilee of Mt 28:10 (notice 'the brethren&#39 and Mt 28.16-20 (the Eleven would have had many, more 'brethren' with them--esp. among the Galileans, Jesus most numerous followers)... The 150 of Acts was probably refered to by Paul as 'and then to all the apostles" (since 'apostle' was a larger group than just the Eleven/Twelve)--ASSUMING that Paul mentioned it at all (we have no reason to believe he was giving an exhaustive list; he didn't mention Stephen, at whose stoning he was present, for example)... I might also mention that I have never run across an author/commentator that argued that Paul was referring to the Acts event, with the reference of the 500... They simply were two different events and hence, the number difference has no implication at all (relative to trustworthiness, for example)... hope this helps, friend. VISTA 11. Actually the disciples were allowed to touch him that evening. Now whether He went to Heaven to report to the Father later that afternoon or not and then returned afterward to speak to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus and the rest of the group back in Jerusalem that evening is not altogether clear. But if Mary was asked not to touch Him at this point in the day and the disciples were freely permitted to touch Him that evening, it must be inferred that He did report briefly back to God the Father in heaven before returning to earth once more for His post-resurrection forty day ministry. Same points as Tsen referenced they are labeled numerically