Worship

[taltho]

Primitive religion; on a natural evolutionary development, from moral associations and spiritual influences where created by man out of his/her fears and illusions. These objects of worship seem altogether suggestive; consisting of things of nature which were close at hand, or was part of hte common place experience of the simple-minded primitive In the evolution of hte human species, worship in it's primitive manifestations appears long before the mind of man is capable of formulating more complex concepts of life as we now know it. Type of worship: stone worship plant worship animal worship elemental worship heavenly worship man worship wisdom worship good/bad luck worship death worship soul-entity worship fetishes worship magic/charm worship sacrificial worship medicine worship Why do you think humans are worship-craving?

[Keeper]

Because we need a God. We need a power above ourselves. that is why people have such strong ideals but why do the religions all seem to be similer?

[Universal Mind]

Rulers not appointed by the people always have Narcisistic Personality Disorder. The ancient rulers were what the people understood rulers to be like, so the people attributed narcissistic characteristics to their respective Gods. http://www.mental-health-today.com/narcissistic/dsm.htm

[Moonbeam]

Because we need a God. We need a power above ourselves. that is why people have such strong ideals but why do the religions all seem to be similer? [/b] They don't all seem that similar to me. The monotheistic religions are much more dangerous to the individual's freedoms. I recently heard a theory (sorry, forgot source) that the universality of religion may be attributed to an evolutionarily selected for trait for children to obey and "worship" their parents (which kept them out of danger therefore the ones that were more obedient survived and passed on this behavior), and this is carried over into adulthood as a need to continue that worship and obedience, which is expressed by religion. Maybe it is just an idea with a really good sticking and transferrence power (i.e. Susan Blackmore, The Meme Machine, whereby she describes ideas as being selected for and evolving, like genes, according to their ability to stick in people's minds and copy themselves into others.)

[Keeper]

that sounds plusable ... but I dont think that is the full story

[Howie]

I just think that humans need answers to the unknowns in life. Since we have the ability to reason and are able to to exercise foresight, we turn to most often what is most pertinent in life in your environment. This would explain why so many cultures all have different beliefs and that they are all in association with their surroundings. This also shows that regardless of environment that humans will adapt to worship something. Making any religion less credible in my eyes. taltho, I think that you may be implying the exact same thing with a little more formulated wording. Yes, no?

[Keeper]

but people also "worship" ideals, concepts and people. If worship is religion, then devotion and adoration of anything is also religion

[Howie]

but people also "worship" ideals, concepts and people. If worship is religion, then devotion and adoration of anything is also religion[/b] Anything can be worshiped. But that does not make it one in the same.

[Keeper]

so how do you deffine religion?

[Howie]

so how do you deffine religion?[/b] Any one of the above concepts that can be worshiped.

[Keeper]

I'm not sure I quite understood that

[Howie]

Any one of the above concepts that can be worshiped. I'm not sure I quite understood that [/b] Something worshiped can be considered religion conceptually. While most organized religion becomes much more in depth it is no different that an aberrationy worshipping rain.

[Keeper]

so, as Democracy, Communisim, Bush, War etc can all be the foucas of worship/adoration, can they all be considered a centril for religion?

[Howie]

so, as Democracy, Communisim, Bush, War etc can all be the foucas of worship/adoration, can they all be considered a centril for religion?[/b] Good discussion Keeper. Let's wait until some others weigh in before it looks any more like an instant messenger chat between you and I. But so you can have the last word.. What do you mean by a centril (central) for religion?

[Keeper]

the thing the religion revolves around (I.e. God or Love, Nature, Narvana, etc.) yeh, it is starting to look like that

[taltho]

I wanted to let you all know I am going to the reservation to a sweat lodge (part of the native American ritual) today I do this a couple of times a month, I may not get back here till tomorrow night. I'll get back to this as soon as possible.

[Howie]

I wanted to let you all know I am going to the reservation to a sweat lodge (part of the native American ritual) today I do this a couple of times a month, I may not get back here till tomorrow night. I&#39;ll get back to this as soon as possible. [/b] Well aint that a hoot. Way to leave us hanging. Well Keeper, we might as well continue now&#33; <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Keeper")</div> so, as Democracy, Communisim, Bush, War etc can all be the foucas of worship/adoration, can they all be considered a centril for religion?[/b] Well I notice that you have chosen out of the hundreds of choices to pick rather negatively viewed ideals. Probably in an attempt to credit your reasoning. Worship is one of the major focal points of religion. But that is only relevant when you speak of religion. This would be similar to debating economics but denying money is not one of it&#39;s true sources. Religion is no more the center of Communism as Communism is no more a center piece for religion. Each having their own set of foundations. So the perspective shift will always be unique with that of the worshiper. Taking devotion for example, may not be common place for worship to most. But because it is an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars > a concept, it can be considered so. Religion is formally based around worship. So natural it is associated with it.

[Keeper]

however, when you get right down to it, many people do worship there ideals, no? and Bingo you spoted it [edit} when you get right donw to it, there really isn't a difference between adoration and religion

[taltho]

I just think that humans need answers to the unknowns in life. Since we have the ability to reason and are able to to exercise foresight, we turn to most often what is most pertinent in life in your environment. This would explain why so many cultures all have different beliefs and that they are all in association with their surroundings. This also shows that regardless of environment that humans will adapt to worship something. Making any religion less credible in my eyes. taltho, I think that you may be implying the exact same thing with a little more formulated wording. Yes, no? [/b] Yes, and I also think this makes religion less credible, but I also think it makes religion credible. Humans worship that which they don't understand, what they fear and cannot explain. To worship something feared can be an attempt to understand it and rid the need for fear (beneficial aspect of religion), or further drive the fear in (the less valid religion). To worship something not understood, is an attempt to demystify it in order to impart understanding and heighten awareness. One example of this is the worship of lightning, you now have a heavenly creature that directs it to thunder who is in hte shape of a man/woman. Interesting these supposed Gods look like us. In hte humans desire to explain the every day happenings of life they worship any supposed force like instinct, gut feelings, and dreams. this worship becomes the focal point of an evolutionary process toward explanation. I think that the innate desire toward worship inherent in all humans is a survival mechanism which allowed our species to evolve. Worship represents our earliest form of inquires that latter led to, philosophy, science and dogma. Suggesting worshiping-religion is now archaic.

[Keeper]

somewhat off topic: this could explain why so many men worship woman

[Conforming Non-Conformist]

If you follow the line of thought here: Ultimately worship is a condition of religion Religion is a structure to allow commune with a 'god' Now if man needs religion as a reason for his existence and ultimately a 'god', then worship would serve to appease his particualr 'god'. I see the need of man for a god as an act of his broken will, as his ego extended outward in a moment of weakness. (also a side topic: why do you think that missionaries go to the most desolate areas and third world nations of the globe to spread their message of 'hope' and 'light'?) He cannot cope with his loss of or unaccounted for place in the world and finds a way of consoling himself with something much greater than himself. Geting back to the ego extended...By man placing a part of himself outside of himself in a position of greater power and esteem (as a force that cannot be destroyed..god) then man is essentially praising himself and obtaining the power, will, drive, hope, whatever you would like to name it, to continue on in life. Man's 'god' is his own self or ego willed outward Man's wordhip of that figure solidifies it as something that is not just of himself but of something that actually exists and becomes real to him. This is all based on the existence of god created by early man (an individual or many who may have higher cognitive abilities than the rest during the time of mans awakening and self-realization)

[taltho]

somewhat off topic: this could explain why so many men worship woman [/b] Doe, I knew I was missing one in the list of thing's worshiped...the most important and valid one at that. If you follow the line of thought here: Ultimately worship is a condition of religion Religion is a structure to allow commune with a 'god' Now if man needs religion as a reason for his existence and ultimately a 'god', then worship would serve to appease his particualr 'god'.[/b] Actually I think religion is a product/condition of worship, and that it instigated hte god/higher-deity concept. I see the need of man for a god as an act of his broken will, as his ego extended outward in a moment of weakness. (also a side topic: why do you think that missionaries go to the most desolate areas and third world nations of the globe to spread their message of 'hope' and 'light'?)[/b] To state in different words your statement below. Humans love to feel there is something greater out there that may be responsible for their weakness, and might explain why they are in a broken down state. I call this the need for blame, they should take responsibility for their own actions and change what they can, considering their circumstances. As you state below. He cannot cope with his loss of or unaccounted for place in the world and finds a way of consoling himself with something much greater than himself. Geting back to the ego extended...By man placing a part of himself outside of himself in a position of greater power and esteem (as a force that cannot be destroyed..god) then man is essentially praising himself and obtaining the power, will, drive, hope, whatever you would like to name it, to continue on in life.[/b] This is quite true. Man's 'god' is his own self or ego willed outward Man's wordhip of that figure solidifies it as something that is not just of himself but of something that actually exists and becomes real to him. This is all based on the existence of god created by early man (an individual or many who may have higher cognitive abilities than the rest during the time of mans awakening and self-realization) [/b] I also agree.

[Conforming Non-Conformist]

Alright, so do you mind speaking morally? I mean, with missionaries going to places where the population is so trodden down by their governing forces, poverity, famine, sub-grade living conditions, and war, do you think this is not much more than preying on the weak? (no pun, but ). Such a bright light is shown to them, with promises and love that they have never known or felt to such a degree. Also along with the Word is of course food. I don't know about everyone else but if i was starving and someone found me, gave me food and clothes in return for walking three times backwards around a glass figurine of a dancing ham, making a few promises for guaranteed life eternal...jeeze!! sign me up..until i can be nourished enough in body and mind to realize the sham... only my pov

[taltho]

Alright, so do you mind speaking morally?[/b] What? I mean, with missionaries going to places where the population is so trodden down by their governing forces, poverity, famine, sub-grade living conditions, and war, do you think this is not much more than preying on the weak? (no pun, but ).[/b] Are you suggesting that these missionaries are worshiped? Such a bright light is shown to them, with promises and love that they have never known or felt to such a degree. Also along with the Word is of course food. I don't know about everyone else but if i was starving and someone found me, gave me food and clothes in return for walking three times backwards around a glass figurine of a dancing ham, making a few promises for guaranteed life eternal...jeeze!! sign me up..until i can be nourished enough in body and mind to realize the sham... only my pov [/b] Every one's got a' eat, if you where starving you would say yes. Walking in a circle, hum What dose the figurine resemble? Did the ham get you high? At the time Early humans relied on superstition to express hope and abundance it was necessary for them to survive and to evolve, without it we would not be here.