unlikly

[JFK]

the scientific explenation of the universe is that all mater in the universe was in small dots then imploded then exploded and is still exploding and in that explosion there are rocks flying around big balles of fire that are only there because colections of dust exploded on that rock circling the fire ball zoom through space at millions of miles an day there is life this life then becomes sentient and able to ask questions. so in hind sight we are here on a rock flying round a ball of fire shooting through space in a thin sheet of ozone protecting us from certan death. so my question is what are the chances that all of this just happened for the sake of happening? the way i see it that is very unlikly with out some allknowing allpowerful force helping it out some. now i know a lot of people will start bad mouthing me so i say go right ahead this might be a fun conversation. hugs and kisses JFK

[Replicon]

If another planet had developed an ozone layer, and ours had not, then there might be life there and not here. Your argument about "likeliness" is kinda like saying "There's no way anyone can possibly win the lottery, because it's highly unlikely." When every week, there is a winner. In fact, depending on the lotto, there might be say a 50% chance that someone wins big, while it's still true that it's highly unlikely that any ONE person will be a winner. In the same manner, it's highly unlikely that the earth were to get life... So think of each lottery ticket as a "fireball flying through space", and realize that while it's highly unlikely that life on one particular fireball is created, it's highly likely that life comes up SOMEWHERE.

[RooJ]

now i know a lot of people will start bad mouthing me so i say go right ahead this might be a fun conversation. This forum really isn't a place for bad mouthing, sure there's many heated debates in the religious/spirituality section, but everyones entitled to an opinion. As far as the big bang, matter/anti-matter explosion ive never been 100% convinced, but i could make a similar description of a god creating an entire universe out of nothing, and it would sound just as strange and far-fetched. so my question is what are the chances that all of this just happened for the sake of happening? the way i see it that is very unlikly with out some allknowing allpowerful force helping it out some. As far as the question, whats the chances of it happening... who knows, but the very act of questioning and not being sure should keep your mind open, I personally stay away from "Its unlikely so there must be a god." As far as lifes concerned, just to add to what replicon said, theres an estimated 100 billion galaxies in the universe with an average somewhere around 100 billion stars in each galaxy. Whats the chances of there NOT being a planet capable of harbouring life.

[Universal Mind]

A high percentage of stars have many planets and and satellites of those planets orbiting them. There are billions of stars in a galaxy. A billion is a thousand times a thousand times a thousand. And that's just one billion. A typical galaxy is part of a cluster of galaxies. A typical cluster is part of a cluster of clusters called a supercluster. There is a gigantic system of superclusters of clusters of galaxies of stars with planets with satellites out there. So while the chances of life forming in exactly the format it did here are very small, there is an astoundingly gigantically enormously humongous universe out there. Plus, our format of life is not the only possible format, for all we know. Our format adapted to the environment. In a different environment, it is very conceivable that a different format of life could develop. God is supposed to be an even more phenomenal entity than any of us are, right? Is he just there by chance?

[LucidFlanders]

Why do people think because how the universe operates, there must be a creator? why can't things just happen for them to happen? so you see how the universe is, and cannot understand how it can do these things on it's own, and the planet and what they do, or what this planet does. We have been in the universe, what....50 years? the universe is what, 500 trillion bazillion kazillion yanhazillion years old? lots of secrets for us to discover in time, time beyond our life expectancy obviously. What we know now we will dismiss later on when we learn more about these things. We used to think the world was flat and you could fall off. We think things are impossible, why? because we don't understand them. We don't understand how the universe is, so we have to make up a god to make things a tiny bit more clear...what if there is no god? can the world grasp that and know we are here and got a LONG time to go to even grasp the understanding that we don't have yet? what's wrong with wanting to think outside the box and not wanna be 100% sure there is a creator. I have no idea, this could be all wrong that i am saying. If there is a god, why would he make us so small in this universe compared to some of the stars and planets we have seen, we are so small and not important it seems.

[LucidFlanders]

A high percentage of stars have many planets and and satellites of those planets orbiting them. There are billions of stars in a galaxy. A billion is a thousand times a thousand times a thousand. And that's just one billion. A typical galaxy is part of a cluster of galaxies. A typical cluster is part of a cluster of clusters called a supercluster. There is a gigantic system of superclusters of clusters of galaxies of stars with planets with satellites out there. So while the chances of life forming in exactly the format it did here are very small, there is an astoundingly gigantically enormously humongous universe out there. Plus, our format of life is not the only possible format, for all we know. Our format adapted to the environment. In a different environment, it is very conceivable that a different format of life could develop. God is supposed to be an even more phenomenal entity than any of us are, right? Is he just there by chance? Something cool about the universe is, we may see a supernova happen before our eyes or know of it happening right now, but it really happened millions of years ago, how cool is that! it's like watching the past. It blows up and we can watch it or read about it, and know it happened millions of years ago. The universe is a nice, but complicated place! imagine the things we DON'T know about it?

[JFK]

If another planet had developed an ozone layer, and ours had not, then there might be life there and not here. Your argument about "likeliness" is kinda like saying "There's no way anyone can possibly win the lottery, because it's highly unlikely." When every week, there is a winner. In fact, depending on the lotto, there might be say a 50% chance that someone wins big, while it's still true that it's highly unlikely that any ONE person will be a winner. In the same manner, it's highly unlikely that the earth were to get life... So think of each lottery ticket as a "fireball flying through space", and realize that while it's highly unlikely that life on one particular fireball is created, it's highly likely that life comes up SOMEWHERE. this is not like the lottery where it will happen this is more like lighting a firecrakker and the fire crakker becomeing senteant right before it blows up with just enough time to tell you the meaning of life? This forum really isn't a place for bad mouthing, sure there's many heated debates in the religious/spirituality section, but everyones entitled to an opinion. As far as the big bang, matter/anti-matter explosion ive never been 100% convinced, but i could make a similar description of a god creating an entire universe out of nothing, and it would sound just as strange and far-fetched. As far as the question, whats the chances of it happening... who knows, but the very act of questioning and not being sure should keep your mind open, I personally stay away from "Its unlikely so there must be a god." As far as lifes concerned, just to add to what replicon said, theres an estimated 100 billion galaxies in the universe with an average somewhere around 100 billion stars in each galaxy. Whats the chances of there NOT being a planet capable of harbouring life. about the bad mouthing your right i was kind of pissed when i typed this ya know the mood where you expect everybody to be meen. but when you say "a god creating an entire universe out of nothing" many bugs make things many times there own size out of nothing but snot or fecal mater so i could say it made that out of nothing. or some guy on an island that makes shelter and a raft and what not. just because we cant see the trees dosn't meen they are not there. hugs and kisses JFK

[Replicon]

this is not like the lottery where it will happen this is more like lighting a firecrakker and the fire crakker becomeing senteant right before it blows up with just enough time to tell you the meaning of life? I see a question mark at the end, but I don't see a question. But I guess it could be answered... "yes"... Except I never said anything about anything becoming "sentient"... Single-cell life forms don't have "self-awareness", at least not in the way you and I think of it. And when you look down to the core of it, it's just a bunch of atoms, which could theoretically be combined through just the right kinds of chemical reactions. There are many labs in the world today that are working on that process. Some claim to have done it already. Just to generalize things a little here... Science is not a religion. There's no faith involved. While some people may have "faith" in the theory of evolution, there's nothing to say that someone will disprove it scientifically. Science offers a methodology. You discover things based on what you know/think to be true, and then you find evidence that your theory is correct. Then one day, someone comes up with something that completely overhauls some base principle everyone was relying on, and the ripple effect causes us to understand everything we thought we knew even better (and it also helps to support or disprove the underlying theory that was proposed). That being said, we're still in a place where nobody knows exacly how we came to be here. But I don't think "likeliness" enters into it at this point, especially not as a means of making a claim that a conscious being created us... because... who created the conscious being then?

[Marvo]

Why do people think because how the universe operates, there must be a creator? why can't things just happen for them to happen? so you see how the universe is, and cannot understand how it can do these things on it's own, and the planet and what they do, or what this planet does. We have been in the universe, what....50 years? the universe is what, 500 trillion bazillion kazillion yanhazillion years old? Actually, even with our technology, we've estimated the universe to be 14 billion years old. Homo sapien sapien has been around for about 200'000 years.

[Xaqaria]

Thats not really even an accurate description of how scientists believe the universe began. Its possible that you would find it a lot more believable if you actually understood it.

[wendylove]

If you truly wanted to learn something you could. I suggest you buy a book by stephen hawkings like the universe in a nutshell or a brief history of time. Also for evolution try the book the God Delusion. Saying that it is a bit harder to read two books then say god did it.

[skysaw]

If you truly wanted to learn something you could. I suggest you buy a book by stephen hawkings like the universe in a nutshell or a brief history of time. Also for evolution try the book the God Delusion. Saying that it is a bit harder to read two books then say god did it. I second this (reading Hawkings even as we speak!). On a completely different angle, I suggest everybody who has any interest at all in contemplating themselves or consciousness in general to read "Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas R. Hofstadter. That book transformed the way I think about everything when I read it 25 years ago, and again when I re-read it 5 years ago.

[wendylove]

Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas R. Hofstadter It pretty hard to understand however at the end it is worth it. The best work on consciousness I have read in book form. I second this (reading Hawkings even as we speak!). Coincidence

[skysaw]

It pretty hard to understand however at the end it is worth it. The best work on consciousness I have read in book form. It's surprising to me that you found it hard to understand. He does go pretty deep, but he sucks you in so gently and with such fun dialog! The first chapter is slow, but everything else goes down like dessert!

[vee]

Sounds like a lot of fun.... balls of explosions... zooming stars.... flying asteroids......Can I go first? Vee

[Replicon]

I second this (reading Hawkings even as we speak!). On a completely different angle, I suggest everybody who has any interest at all in contemplating themselves or consciousness in general to read "Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas R. Hofstadter. That book transformed the way I think about everything when I read it 25 years ago, and again when I re-read it 5 years ago. That book is definitely a masterpiece. I should reread it soon hehe.

[Neruo]

lol. Unlikely? Before the big bang, there were no laws of physics, there was no time, so there was no probability. Such a thing can not be calculated, one can only see it happend. Besides that, M-theory sounds pretty good (basically, there are infinitely much universes). Wiki the shit if you really care. I can pretend you didn't already made up your mind before you even studied the theories. ^_^

[JFK]

lol. Unlikely? Before the big bang, there were no laws of physics, there was no time, i always hated that part i meen just because all mass was in little balls that would eventualy make all life doesn't meen that there was no time laws of physics there would have to be for the mass to clump together like that hugs and kisses JFK

[HyperNova]

Im sorry but i would love it if someone would finaly explain to me why they think something like the universe being created can be "Random". Seriosuly if you knew what you were on about you would not think that once. And by reading 2 books and saying "its harder to say God did it" is pathetic, i mean those books must really not know what they are on about. I think you should study more if your interested untill you finaly come to the conclusion - which you will if you do it properly - that things like that DO NOT happen randomly. Flame me all you want but you are really just kidding yourselfs.

[wendylove]

Im sorry but i would love it if someone would finaly explain to me why they think something like the universe being created can be "Random". Seriosuly if you knew what you were on about you would not think that once. And by reading 2 books and saying "its harder to say God did it" is pathetic, i mean those books must really not know what they are on about. I think you should study more if your interested untill you finaly come to the conclusion - which you will if you do it properly - that things like that DO NOT happen randomly. Flame me all you want but you are really just kidding yourselfs. Well, I look at science. To date their is no evidence for creationism or that the universe was created. Now have you got any evidence except saying the universe is not random then show me. I mean peer review evidence in a scientific journel. As I say bring the evidence and I listen. Plus I don't believe the universe was created. Their is science and then their is crap you make up, unless you have science then your just making up crap.

[Chaos]

Im sorry but i would love it if someone would finaly explain to me why they think something like the universe being created can be "Random". Seriosuly if you knew what you were on about you would not think that once. And by reading 2 books and saying "its harder to say God did it" is pathetic, i mean those books must really not know what they are on about. I think you should study more if your interested untill you finaly come to the conclusion - which you will if you do it properly - that things like that DO NOT happen randomly. Flame me all you want but you are really just kidding yourselfs. Random occurances happen all the time, why does God have to be involved in them? If you flip a coin 100 times chances are it will come close to being heads 50% and tails 50%. Did god make that happen too? Also, how can you say the books don't know what they are talking about? Stephen Hawkings wrote them for God's sake!?!

[Xaqaria]

Just remember, in a world of infinite possibilities, any occurrence can appear both random and intelligently designed, while in reality being neither. When everything can happen, everything will at some place and time. Therefore the fact that we exist is not random and yet not a conscious effort as it is inevitable that we will exist as it is inevitable that everything imaginable will or does exist somewhere.

[vee]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone read Zecharia Sitchin's books. One in particular I found fascinating called "The 12th Planet." In the book their is an ancient sumerian account of a great war. The war is not one involving people. It involves our planets fighting and producing and talking to one another. They especially got into it over coming too close to Tiamat, (earth) and she freaked out. That verse goes. The divine brothers banded together; They disturbed Tiamat as they surged back and forth. They were troubling the "belly" of Tiamat by their antics in the dwellings of heaven. Apsu (the sun) could not lessen their clamor; Tiamat was speechless at their ways. Their doings were loathsome...Troublesome were their ways. In the Chamber of Fates, the place of Destinies, A god was engendered, most able and wisest of gods; In the heart of the Deep was MARDUK created. Alluring was his figure, sparkling the lift of his eyes: Lordly was his gait, commanding as of olden times...Greatly exalted was he above the gods, exceeding throughout... He ws the loftiest of gods, surpassing was his height; His members were enormous, he was exceedingly tall. (keep in mind that this is a planet they are talking about.) (The order of passage, first by Neptune, then by Uranus, indicates that Marduk was coming into the solar system not in the system's orbital direction (counterclockwise) but from the opposite direction, moving clockwise. Moving on, the oncoming planet was soon seized by the immense gravitational and magnetic forces of the giant Anshar/Saturn, then Kishar/Jupiter. His path ws bent even more inward, into the center of the solar system, toward Tiamat. Tiamat and Marduk, the wisest of the gods, Advanced against one another; They pressed on to single combat, They approached for battle. The Lord spread out his net to enfold her; The Evil Wind, the rearmost, he unleashed at her face. As she opened her mouth, Tiamat, to devour him-- He drove in the Evil Wind so that she closed not her lips. The fierce storm Winds then charged her belly; It cut through her insides, tore into her womb. Having thus subdued her, her life-breath he extinguished. After he had slain Tiamat, the leader, Her band was shattered, her host broken up. The gods, her helpers who marched at her side, Trembling with fear, Turned their backs about so as to save and preserve their lives. Thrown into the net, they found themselves ensnared...The whole band of demons that had marched on her side He cast into fetters, their hands he bound...Tightly encircled, they could not escape. The Lord paused to view her lifeless body. To divide the monster he then artfully planned. Then, as a mussel, he split her into two parts. The Lord trod upon Tiamat's hinder part; With his weapon the connected skull he cut loose; He severed the channels of her blood; And caused the North Wind to bear it to places that have been unknown. Earth had been created! (evidently) The lower part had another fate: on the second orbit, Marduk himself hit it, smashing it to pieces. The (other) half of her he set up as a screen for the skies; Locking them together, as watchmen he stationed them...He bent Tiamat's tail to form the Great Band as a bracelet. (The asteroid belt had been created.) That's not all of it but some of it. I left out some crucial battle stratagies. My question is this. Where did Sumer get this info. Were they told by the Nefilim. (supposedly a super race of Rocket Men) What do you think of the whole idea that PLANET'S were intities and fully concious of what they were doing and what they were about. Maybe there is more conciousness in the Big Bang theory than meets the eye. Vee

[Neruo]

i always hated that part i meen just because all mass was in little balls that would eventualy make all life doesn't meen that there was no time laws of physics there would have to be for the mass to clump together like that Actually, it does mean there is no time. Calculations have been done, stuff like that. Because of abundance of mass, time-space gets distorted so much, things change drastically. Like when the astronauts were flying around in their space shuttles and then came back, the atom clocks on board their ships were 0.01 second off from the ones back on earth. 0.01 is a LOT for an atom clock. High speed, or the vicinity of extremely high mass, does something to time. hugs and kisses JFK rapes and pie NERUO. lol. Really. What is more unlikely: The universe, some space/some mass/some time/some laws, existing without a clear cause. A God, infinitely complex, with emotions, feelings, anger, hate, and extreme powers to do what he wants and such, existing without a clear cause. If the birth of the universe is unlikely, the birth of a god would be an impossibility.

[Jeremysr]

Neruo, those both sound very very unlikely. To me it makes completely no sense that anything exists. Including God. It makes no sense to me. But it doesn't really matter anymore. I know I will eventually understand it because I will meet God, my creator, I'm sure he'll explain it to me or let me understand. I have seen so much evidence that he is there and working in my life. And absolutely no evidence that there is no God. You probably can't give me one piece of evidence that shows that God doesn't exist. Because there being a God, and there being no God, both make no sense to us in this Universe because there being anything makes no sense in this Universe. So I'm not even going to think about why God is there/where he came from anymore.