Originally Posted by SilverZero
First off, how do you KNOW that hell isn't eternal?
Second, I believe in hell (and, no, it's not a big fiery cave), and I absolutely reject the arguments that Satan has won and that God has failed. You're approaching the issue as if there is a score to be balanced - whoever wins the most souls wins the game.
Instead, I would look at it this way: God loves you, and even if everybody else rejects Him, if you don't, all the pain of losing the rest of His children is worth it, because He still has you. You probably reject that on the basis of fairness, but if you look at it from the perspective of perfect justice (we all have a chance, we all have a choice, and whatever we choose, God has to let us live with the consequences), it's right, even if it's not pleasant.
You say God knew most of us would end up in hell, so why make us in the first place? I say, hell was created for the devil and his cohort that rebelled - and those of us who choose to reject God have nowhere else to go. Hell wasn't created for humans. God did everything to enable us to choose to embrace Him, even to the point of coming and dying so we wouldn't have to. If some people still want to reject Him, what can He do? That's the down-side of free will, but it doesn't mean God screwed up.
Okay, this is good. This is the sort of conversation I need to address certain points in these doctrines.
Second, I believe in hell (and, no, it's not a big fiery cave), and I absolutely reject the arguments that Satan has won and that God has failed. You're approaching the issue as if there is a score to be balanced - whoever wins the most souls wins the game.
No, I don't see it as some game between God and the Devil, because that would suggest the devil actually has power over God in some cases. I see it as a matter of goals.
Instead, I would look at it this way: God loves you, and even if everybody else rejects Him, if you don't, all the pain of losing the rest of His children is worth it, because He still has you. You probably reject that on the basis of fairness, but if you look at it from the perspective of perfect justice (we all have a chance, we all have a choice, and whatever we choose, God has to let us live with the consequences), it's right, even if it's not pleasant.
First of all, no, we don't all have a chance and I will tell you why. Secondly we don't all have a choice and I can prove it biblically. Thirdly, the consequences are not something we live with forever (hell).
The Christian argument of "God gives everyone a chance to hear the gospel therefore the responsibility is on them." is completely wrong and takes a perversion of God's character to believe. If everyone was presented with the ultimate truth and had hell or heaven before them, NOBODY WOULD CHOOSE HELL. You would have to be an idiot, and I don't think anyone is an idiot enough to choose eternal damnation over eternal life. People may be presented with the story of Christ or a gospel message but there are so many things in the way of them perceiving it. Unless once everyone dies God stands before them and says "Choose me or forever be separated into eternal darkness" nobody would choose the latter."
Now, the concept of Grace is overlooked in your statement. You act as if your salvation is actually something you choose. You didn't.
"No on can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..."
John 6:44
Christ presents this repeatedly. I don't have all the resources with me to show you all scripture that doesn't support your idea of salvation being a choice we make.
Christ never mentioned hell. Every-time the world "hell" appears in the gospels it is translated from "Ghenna" which is a literal place here on earth. It was a giant garbage dump where they would throw criminals. It literally burned day and night and was a "hell on earth". Many times in the new testament hades is mistaken for Hell, Hades is directly lifted from greek mythology.
You say God knew most of us would end up in hell, so why make us in the first place? I say, hell was created for the devil and his cohort that rebelled - and those of us who choose to reject God have nowhere else to go. Hell wasn't created for humans. God did everything to enable us to choose to embrace Him, even to the point of coming and dying so we wouldn't have to. If some people still want to reject Him, what can He do? That's the down-side of free will, but it doesn't mean God screwed up.
Saying that those who reject God had nowhere else to go is admitting God screwed up. You are saying God wanted to make a loose-cannon with humanity and because of that He had nowhere to put all the people that would naturally reject him, so he stuffed them in hell. And, you are still making it look like us embracing God is a choice we have, because you obviously believe in free will. I have already stated why I feel nobody would reject God if presented with the truth, because not everyone is presented with the ultimate truth, because everyone would accept it. There is a reason it is clouded from us, because in order to understand truth we must understand what it is to not have truth. Free will exists, but so does predestination. The biggest mis-step in Christian doctrine is thinking that free will is right, and predestination is wrong.
Romans 9:
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
Heaven and Hell is not a matter of who "Chooses God" God chooses us when He thinks we are ready. Free Will holds no water, because you didn't choose your parents, and almost every decision you made can lead back to that point, and your parents before you did not choose their own destinies. Our free will and desires are mixed up in this experience we call life. It is a blend of pre destination and free will, and God dictates it all. We sin so that God may show us mercy, we are punished so we can understand righteousness. This isn't a game or God trying to scrap together the remains of what free will has left him. Hell is simply for people who haven't received eternal life yet. If you re-read popular scripture, those that are in the weeping and gnashing of teeth eventually sit down at the table of the Lord, though they sit down last.
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