Christians: Discuss This

[jaasum]

You can't believe in a God that is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving if you believe in the doctrines of Hell. Why? Because if Hell truly exists it is for a mankind that became failures. It is for people who "didn't get" Christ's message and therefore damned themselves by choice to be burned and tortured forever and ever. If you believe in hell you by default believe two other things (wether or not you say you do) 1. You believe that Satan has won. You can say he was defeated on the cross, but according to the Christian religion the majority of humanity is or is going to be damned. Christianity is not he major religion of the world, there are not as many converts as there are heathens, so by Christian standards the majority of mankind is damned, therefore Satan has drug the most souls to hell with him, and a small collection of Christians will make it to heaven. 2. You believe God is a failure You believe that God's Will cannot be fulfilled. Christ was sent to save the world, not save a small collection of believers, so if Christ does not in fact "save the world" then He failed, and therefore God failed. Think of this, if God is all knowing, all powerful, all loving then he had a plan when he made mankind. Hell isn't an "oopsie!" from God. If you believe the Christian standards, therefore you believe that God knew BEFORE he made man that the majority of them will burn in hell forever (say completely by their own choice) and the minority will actually enter heaven, but he choose to do it anyways, because of his lust for fellowship billions burning in eternal torture is worth it. OR you can begin to question what has been handing to you about Christ, the bible and your religion and find out the powerful amazing truth behind it and the real reason Christ came. God had a plan from the beginning, do you think he made the garden of eden and didn't realize that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in it? Do you literally think He didn't know that adam and eve would eat of the tree? I was going to write a huge article with supporting scriptures and facts, so you might just have to take my word that I didn't come to this conclusion because it made me feel good, I cam to this conclusion because I really began to dig into doctrine and scripture. What do I believe then? I DO believe there is a hell. I don't know if there is fire there or now, but I know it IS NOT eternal. If we die without Christ then we continue into death, before Christ there was only death. Now with Christ there is eternal life. "The wages of Sin is death." Notice that it says DEATH not hell. When we read the bible and get the words "eternal" and "hell" look into where those actually come from. This is just a start, if people want to ask specific questions, or challenge what I have brought to the table I can get into specifics. This is complicated thats why I abandoned a dissertation of a post and decided to have open discussion, not complicated because by belief takes a lot of explaining but because current doctrine takes a lot of UNexplaining.

[SilverZero]

First off, how do you KNOW that hell isn't eternal? Second, I believe in hell (and, no, it's not a big fiery cave), and I absolutely reject the arguments that Satan has won and that God has failed. You're approaching the issue as if there is a score to be balanced - whoever wins the most souls wins the game. Instead, I would look at it this way: God loves you, and even if everybody else rejects Him, if you don't, all the pain of losing the rest of His children is worth it, because He still has you. You probably reject that on the basis of fairness, but if you look at it from the perspective of perfect justice (we all have a chance, we all have a choice, and whatever we choose, God has to let us live with the consequences), it's right, even if it's not pleasant. You say God knew most of us would end up in hell, so why make us in the first place? I say, hell was created for the devil and his cohort that rebelled - and those of us who choose to reject God have nowhere else to go. Hell wasn't created for humans. God did everything to enable us to choose to embrace Him, even to the point of coming and dying so we wouldn't have to. If some people still want to reject Him, what can He do? That's the down-side of free will, but it doesn't mean God screwed up.

[jaasum]

First off, how do you KNOW that hell isn't eternal? Second, I believe in hell (and, no, it's not a big fiery cave), and I absolutely reject the arguments that Satan has won and that God has failed. You're approaching the issue as if there is a score to be balanced - whoever wins the most souls wins the game. Instead, I would look at it this way: God loves you, and even if everybody else rejects Him, if you don't, all the pain of losing the rest of His children is worth it, because He still has you. You probably reject that on the basis of fairness, but if you look at it from the perspective of perfect justice (we all have a chance, we all have a choice, and whatever we choose, God has to let us live with the consequences), it's right, even if it's not pleasant. You say God knew most of us would end up in hell, so why make us in the first place? I say, hell was created for the devil and his cohort that rebelled - and those of us who choose to reject God have nowhere else to go. Hell wasn't created for humans. God did everything to enable us to choose to embrace Him, even to the point of coming and dying so we wouldn't have to. If some people still want to reject Him, what can He do? That's the down-side of free will, but it doesn't mean God screwed up. Okay, this is good. This is the sort of conversation I need to address certain points in these doctrines. Second, I believe in hell (and, no, it's not a big fiery cave), and I absolutely reject the arguments that Satan has won and that God has failed. You're approaching the issue as if there is a score to be balanced - whoever wins the most souls wins the game. No, I don't see it as some game between God and the Devil, because that would suggest the devil actually has power over God in some cases. I see it as a matter of goals. Instead, I would look at it this way: God loves you, and even if everybody else rejects Him, if you don't, all the pain of losing the rest of His children is worth it, because He still has you. You probably reject that on the basis of fairness, but if you look at it from the perspective of perfect justice (we all have a chance, we all have a choice, and whatever we choose, God has to let us live with the consequences), it's right, even if it's not pleasant. First of all, no, we don't all have a chance and I will tell you why. Secondly we don't all have a choice and I can prove it biblically. Thirdly, the consequences are not something we live with forever (hell). The Christian argument of "God gives everyone a chance to hear the gospel therefore the responsibility is on them." is completely wrong and takes a perversion of God's character to believe. If everyone was presented with the ultimate truth and had hell or heaven before them, NOBODY WOULD CHOOSE HELL. You would have to be an idiot, and I don't think anyone is an idiot enough to choose eternal damnation over eternal life. People may be presented with the story of Christ or a gospel message but there are so many things in the way of them perceiving it. Unless once everyone dies God stands before them and says "Choose me or forever be separated into eternal darkness" nobody would choose the latter." Now, the concept of Grace is overlooked in your statement. You act as if your salvation is actually something you choose. You didn't. "No on can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." John 6:44 Christ presents this repeatedly. I don't have all the resources with me to show you all scripture that doesn't support your idea of salvation being a choice we make. Christ never mentioned hell. Every-time the world "hell" appears in the gospels it is translated from "Ghenna" which is a literal place here on earth. It was a giant garbage dump where they would throw criminals. It literally burned day and night and was a "hell on earth". Many times in the new testament hades is mistaken for Hell, Hades is directly lifted from greek mythology. You say God knew most of us would end up in hell, so why make us in the first place? I say, hell was created for the devil and his cohort that rebelled - and those of us who choose to reject God have nowhere else to go. Hell wasn't created for humans. God did everything to enable us to choose to embrace Him, even to the point of coming and dying so we wouldn't have to. If some people still want to reject Him, what can He do? That's the down-side of free will, but it doesn't mean God screwed up. Saying that those who reject God had nowhere else to go is admitting God screwed up. You are saying God wanted to make a loose-cannon with humanity and because of that He had nowhere to put all the people that would naturally reject him, so he stuffed them in hell. And, you are still making it look like us embracing God is a choice we have, because you obviously believe in free will. I have already stated why I feel nobody would reject God if presented with the truth, because not everyone is presented with the ultimate truth, because everyone would accept it. There is a reason it is clouded from us, because in order to understand truth we must understand what it is to not have truth. Free will exists, but so does predestination. The biggest mis-step in Christian doctrine is thinking that free will is right, and predestination is wrong. Romans 9: 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— Heaven and Hell is not a matter of who "Chooses God" God chooses us when He thinks we are ready. Free Will holds no water, because you didn't choose your parents, and almost every decision you made can lead back to that point, and your parents before you did not choose their own destinies. Our free will and desires are mixed up in this experience we call life. It is a blend of pre destination and free will, and God dictates it all. We sin so that God may show us mercy, we are punished so we can understand righteousness. This isn't a game or God trying to scrap together the remains of what free will has left him. Hell is simply for people who haven't received eternal life yet. If you re-read popular scripture, those that are in the weeping and gnashing of teeth eventually sit down at the table of the Lord, though they sit down last.

[SilverZero]

But all creation declares the glory of God, and yet many people (even on these forums) reject that and instead attribute the universe to chance. Here's the root of what I don't want people to fall into: That you can live however you want, reject God all you want in this life, and then you'll get a second chance later. If that's true, what was Jesus preaching about in the first place? Who cares how we live, who or what we worship, what we do, etc., if it all gets erased in the end anyway? That's a perversion of God's character. And, yes, people would still reject God. If He stood in Times Square and told everybody that He was real, but in order to get into heaven, most of us would have to live in a way that's totally different, lots of people would still choose their own pleasures. In fact, that's exactly what happened to Jesus.

[Sornaensis]

But all creation declares the glory of God, and yet many people (even on these forums) reject that and instead attribute the universe to chance. Here's the root of what I don't want people to fall into: That you can live however you want, reject God all you want in this life, and then you'll get a second chance later. If that's true, what was Jesus preaching about in the first place? Who cares how we live, who or what we worship, what we do, etc., if it all gets erased in the end anyway? That's a perversion of God's character. And, yes, people would still reject God. If He stood in Times Square and told everybody that He was real, but in order to get into heaven, most of us would have to live in a way that's totally different, lots of people would still choose their own pleasures. In fact, that's exactly what happened to Jesus. If god is real, why is there no evidence of him, save "his creation"?

[jaasum]

But all creation declares the glory of God, and yet many people (even on these forums) reject that and instead attribute the universe to chance. Here's the root of what I don't want people to fall into: That you can live however you want, reject God all you want in this life, and then you'll get a second chance later. If that's true, what was Jesus preaching about in the first place? Who cares how we live, who or what we worship, what we do, etc., if it all gets erased in the end anyway? That's a perversion of God's character. And, yes, people would still reject God. If He stood in Times Square and told everybody that He was real, but in order to get into heaven, most of us would have to live in a way that's totally different, lots of people would still choose their own pleasures. In fact, that's exactly what happened to Jesus. I encourage you to no make assumptions about what I am saying. I will try not to do the same to you, but I have heard what you are saying 1,000 times. And no I am not saying that you can live however you want. There is punishment for sin, but proper punishment isn't eternity. I think Hitler did exactly what God wanted him too, and before Hitler would accept the message of Christ he might have to spend an "eternity" in hell. I don't see hell as a place of physical punishment, more like a continuation of death we see on earth. Have you seen Requiem for a Dream? I would imagine hell as something like that. How long must we continue in death before we accept Christ? Exactly as long as God wants us to. (please remember I am basing all I believe scripturally, this isn't just my happy view of the earth) To me you seem slightly upset that your works don't hold as much water as you would like them to? God subjects us to sin for his own purposes. The scripture I placed above says sometimes just to make his wrath known. We are held accountable because we still CHOOSE to make the decisions we want to, but we only make those decisions because God leads us to. God didn't want to make robots that worship him because He is awesome and scary, or because we are programmed to. I agree with that, He does want us to choose him. But God is powerful enough that eventually all will see the truth, because that was His intention from the beginning, and who are we to resist the will of God? Look back to the garden of eden. Do you think God could have NOT placed the tree of knowledge in the garden? Therefore preventing man from falling? Do you think he could have preventing the snake from entering in? Then why didn't He? He was almost setting us up for failure. Not because He is a failure, because He understands how we all need to fail and fall short. Christ was the plan from the beginning, Christ isn't a backup.

[SilverZero]

1. Seismosaur, what evidence would you accept as pointing to God's existence? 2. jaasum, I apologize if I was coming off like I was attacking. I'm enjoying the debate, just like I think you are. And I also apologize for putting words into your mouth. I agree that Christ wasn't the backup, but only because God saw the end from the beginning. And I don't quite get what you mean by my works not holding water. Did you mean "words?" I still need help with what you meant. I'm not upset about anything. Well, except for the fact that this IPA I'm drinking is considerably less impressive than I would have expected from my favorite brewery. For shame. I haven't seen RfaD, but it's on my list. Hitler did what God wanted? I'm worried about what the hardcore anti-theists around here will do with that one. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. It also says this: ". . . the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed. . . ." - 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. The word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word aiōnios, which literally means "without end, never to cease, everlasting."

[jaasum]

1. Seismosaur, what evidence would you accept as pointing to God's existence? 2. jaasum, I apologize if I was coming off like I was attacking. I'm enjoying the debate, just like I think you are. And I also apologize for putting words into your mouth. I agree that Christ wasn't the backup, but only because God saw the end from the beginning. And I don't quite get what you mean by my works not holding water. Did you mean "words?" I still need help with what you meant. I'm not upset about anything. Well, except for the fact that this IPA I'm drinking is considerably less impressive than I would have expected from my favorite brewery. For shame. I haven't seen RfaD, but it's on my list. Hitler did what God wanted? I'm worried about what the hardcore anti-theists around here will do with that one. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. It also says this: ". . . the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed. . . ." - 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. The word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word aiōnios, which literally means "without end, never to cease, everlasting." The word aiōnios can also just mean "eternity" in the sense of. "I had to wait in line at the DMV for an eternity." From what I have read (countless places can't site them all right now) but even if we debated the meaning of that word to it's bitter end there is the cultural context, the canonization context, and the perception context we have to take in when reading scripture. I use a lot of scripture, yes. I try really hard to not to pick and choose, but it is very hard with how wishy washy scripture is. I don't think that world means a literal eternity, let alone do I think everything in that book is "the word of God." I am very against biblical inerrancy doctrine. When reading the bible you HAVE to mix it with everything you understand about it, not just reading it literally. If you think God saw then end from the beginning, then you agree that He made man knowing that so many will burn in hell forever. There are souls that are "lost hope" in God's eyes. Let me ask you this. Do you think God's will is ever unfulfilled? As in God desires things He knows will not happen? Lets take the conversation this way. Oh and I am pretty sure I said works, you put way too much emphasis on that, and I have scripture that shows Hitler was exactly where God wanted him to be Romans 13 (New Living Translation) New Living Translation (NLT) Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. Romans 13 Respect for Authority Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience. 6 Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority.

[SilverZero]

I think God's will is often unfulfilled. I can think of many instances in my life alone where I know God's will was for me to make one decision, but instead I made another, for my own purposes. In so doing, I ended up farther from God than I was before. When I recognize those instances, I ask forgiveness and I repent, but on the whole, I've missed an opportunity to grow closer to Him. My question to you is, how does one decide what parts of the Bible are correct, which parts need to be interpreted a certain way, and which parts are just plain wrong? When God says that His word is true and complete, who are we to consign certain passages or ideas to tradition or whatever? My only other comment is that if you're going to scrutinize the literal meaning of scripture (which I certainly endorse), the NLT might not be a good version to use. It's a paraphrase, not a literal translation. I'm not criticizing it - I read it all last year - but I would suggest a version that compares every word and phrase for correctness in translation.

[Matt5678]

reading over these posts makes me a little depressed. i thought i understood this debate. but just as your getting to the bottom of the pond it gets a thousand feet deeper feel so alone

[jaasum]

I think God's will is often unfulfilled. I can think of many instances in my life alone where I know God's will was for me to make one decision, but instead I made another, for my own purposes. In so doing, I ended up farther from God than I was before. When I recognize those instances, I ask forgiveness and I repent, but on the whole, I've missed an opportunity to grow closer to Him. My question to you is, how does one decide what parts of the Bible are correct, which parts need to be interpreted a certain way, and which parts are just plain wrong? When God says that His word is true and complete, who are we to consign certain passages or ideas to tradition or whatever? My only other comment is that if you're going to scrutinize the literal meaning of scripture (which I certainly endorse), the NLT might not be a good version to use. It's a paraphrase, not a literal translation. I'm not criticizing it - I read it all last year - but I would suggest a version that compares every word and phrase for correctness in translation. Okay, before we continue, show me where GOD says THE BIBLE is his complete true word? There is nowhere that The Bible refers to itself as the word of God. We call it that, not itself, and there is nowhere that it says it is complete. All the books in the bible were written separately (and most independently) and many of them never thought they would be part of "The Bible" But if you can show me a verse that says "Everything that you will find in the Bible compiled by Constantine hundreds of years later and dominated by the catholic church and then translated through several different versions of english not to mention that the original texts we had weren't even in their original language then edited, changed, added to then reformed translated some more and then put in the hands of Americans who by this time had over 300 denominations in their country alone is the undisputed WORD OF GOD." then I will end this thread. Because when I do even a tiny bit of research, both scripturally and historically, The Bible is NOT the word of God. There are words of God within the bible, but it is not inerrant, and you can't even prove that biblically. Also, if we are going to get into translation issues, see above comment. I usually look a few over and then say "Yup NLT says it the same way basically" If we are going to say one version is better than another then anyone can fit anything to their view, because not only do we have the original confusion of scripture, we have over thirty different english version of confusion to pick from! In response to you denying God's will, that is matter of faith and perception. I am not asking you do question what you know to be God's Will. I just think sometimes our perception of His will is a little off. For example I used to think it was God's will that I became a "missionary to America" but now I am starting to think that God is leading me to live in New Zealand permanently. How does that work? I am learning more and more what God's will is and how I fit into that. I learn every day what the voice of God is, I am a lot closer than I used to be. I am also nowhere near where I should be. I may sound like I have it all figured out but I seriously have only scratched the surface of this. All I have accomplished is that many fundamental doctrines can't hold up to much scrutiny for HUNDREDS of reasons. It would take a gigantic leap of faith for me to go back in believing in eternal hell. Don't have much answers beyond un explaining things like I do. The core of what I am getting at? God is all powerful, merciful, loving and just. God is in control and God has been in control since the dawn of creation. He knows what He is doing, all powers are subject unto Him. Man's perception of Him changes throughout time but God does not. Our doctrines will rise and crumble but God will come out victorious in the end. Life is nothing more than God shaping, molding, purifying and loving every one of us. Eventually all will sit down at the table of the Lord because eventually all will be presented with the truth. I think Christianity will be surprised by the truth, and I think Buddhism and atheists will be surprised by the truth. None of us have it figured out because the only pure truth is God Himself. So I wont give answers in this thread, just questions. If I get you pondering your comfort zone then I have succeeded. Because one thing I do know is that when we think we have it all figured out, that is a good sign that we don't.

[Keeper]

Okay, before we continue, show me where GOD says THE BIBLE is his complete true word? There is nowhere that The Bible refers to itself as the word of God. We call it that, not itself, and there is nowhere that it says it is complete. All the books in the bible were written separately (and most independently) and many of them never thought they would be part of "The Bible" But if you can show me a verse that says "Everything that you will find in the Bible compiled by Constantine hundreds of years later and dominated by the catholic church and then translated through several different versions of english not to mention that the original texts we had weren't even in their original language then edited, changed, added to then reformed translated some more and then put in the hands of Americans who by this time had over 300 denominations in their country alone is the undisputed WORD OF GOD." then I will end this thread. Because when I do even a tiny bit of research, both scripturally and historically, The Bible is NOT the word of God. There are words of God within the bible, but it is not inerrant, and you can't even prove that biblically. Also, if we are going to get into translation issues, see above comment. I usually look a few over and then say "Yup NLT says it the same way basically" If we are going to say one version is better than another then anyone can fit anything to their view, because not only do we have the original confusion of scripture, we have over thirty different english version of confusion to pick from! In response to you denying God's will, that is matter of faith and perception. I am not asking you do question what you know to be God's Will. I just think sometimes our perception of His will is a little off. For example I used to think it was God's will that I became a "missionary to America" but now I am starting to think that God is leading me to live in New Zealand permanently. How does that work? I am learning more and more what God's will is and how I fit into that. I learn every day what the voice of God is, I am a lot closer than I used to be. I am also nowhere near where I should be. I may sound like I have it all figured out but I seriously have only scratched the surface of this. All I have accomplished is that many fundamental doctrines can't hold up to much scrutiny for HUNDREDS of reasons. It would take a gigantic leap of faith for me to go back in believing in eternal hell. Don't have much answers beyond un explaining things like I do. The core of what I am getting at? God is all powerful, merciful, loving and just. God is in control and God has been in control since the dawn of creation. He knows what He is doing, all powers are subject unto Him. Man's perception of Him changes throughout time but God does not. Our doctrines will rise and crumble but God will come out victorious in the end. Life is nothing more than God shaping, molding, purifying and loving every one of us. Eventually all will sit down at the table of the Lord because eventually all will be presented with the truth. I think Christianity will be surprised by the truth, and I think Buddhism and atheists will be surprised by the truth. None of us have it figured out because the only pure truth is God Himself. So I wont give answers in this thread, just questions. If I get you pondering your comfort zone then I have succeeded. Because one thing I do know is that when we think we have it all figured out, that is a good sign that we don't. Amen

[Neruo]

I totally agree with god. If I had 5 children, and I told them to pray to me everyday, and a few of them didn't, I would invent an immortality-potion, just to let them suffer for eternity. Sounds fair, and loving. Right?

[jaasum]

Uhm, I don't think you really understand the Christian doctrines so I will try to explain it to you. Christianity is based off of the idea that you don't have to "earn" your way to heaven. The belief is that if you accept that Christ paid the debt for your sins, then you can enter heaven. In theory salvation through Christ comes first and then He works and changes you, gets rid of the sin, makes you want to pray everyday ect. My problem with that doctrine is that on the flipside, if you don't believe in Christ, or the Christian doctrine of salvation (such as "I can just be a good person and go to heaven) then you will by default burn in hell forever, because apparently you have been given the option. But then they have to cover their tracks to fit that doctrine in, such as age of accountability (because children couldn't go to hell! That would be unmerciful!) But then someone who apparently goes past this alleged age of understanding (lets say seven years old) and doesn't "Get it" like the Christians do burns in hell forever, because he chose not to accept the blood of Christ for his sins. It doesn't really make much sense. If Christs blood covered the sins of all mankind, then doesn't that still count? Or did his blood only cover some of man's sins? The ones that were lucky enough to "get it". Then Christ says things like "no one can come to unto me unless the Father calls them." So now we are left with this idea that the only people who go to heaven are the ones God has called? That doesn't make any sense! The doctrine of hell must be false. I do believe there is a place that is, uhm, not heaven. But I think our perception of it has been clouded. I feel it is a place more like that of sheol, it is a continuation of this life, where you go if you haven't "gotten it" yet.

[Sornaensis]

1. Seismosaur, what evidence would you accept as pointing to God's existence? Oh, i dunno, mabey God? ROFL. ". . . the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed. . . ." - 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. The word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word aiōnios, which literally means "without end, never to cease, everlasting." So you ARE a literalist!!!! You should know better than to take everything in the bible with such forceful literalness. Can't you see that Hell is a mechanism to keep people thinking that they can't get away with stuff? To keep them in line? I guess not... v.v -TGWS' $0.10

[SilverZero]

Oh, i dunno, mabey God? ROFL. Wow, now that I'm done holding my sides, do you have a serious answer? So you ARE a literalist!!!! You should know better than to take everything in the bible with such forceful literalness. Can't you see that Hell is a mechanism to keep people thinking that they can't get away with stuff? To keep them in line? I guess not... v.v Why should I know better? Can you prove otherwise?

[jaasum]

I have been trying to tell you why The Bible shouldn't be taken so literally the entire thread.

[Sornaensis]

Wow, now that I'm done holding my sides, do you have a serious answer? ? That is my serious answer SMARTASS. If you worship this god, then why doesn't anyone ever talk to him, or see him? Just saying he created everything, and that is proof can be said the same for the flying spagetti monster(May you be touched by his noodly appendages) , and The Giant purple tomato. So, where is the credibility and logic? Why should I know better? Can you prove otherwise? | v He's right, lol. I have been trying to tell you why The Bible shouldn't be taken so literally the entire thread. -TGWS' $0.10