Thread: Homosexuals, what to think of them?( Bible related)

Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

Hey guys, i have a gay friend and he has been subjected to an amount of "anti-gay" talk from Christians. My School is a Church School and everyone is fine there, or at least they don't say anything to his face. But from a Christian youth worker that comes sometimes, he has had some negativity toward him and was bullied a little in main school by two quite strong Christians i know.

The thing is, how are Christians supposed to act? I understand how they feel since their Book does teach them that Homosexuality is completely wrong and is a sin. The perpetrators should be punished just like any other bad sin.

Here are some Bible Quotes on the subject:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be put upon them."
-Leviticus 20:13

"Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord."
-Proverbs 18:22

Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

this would suggest that homosexuals are an "abomination" and so following these types of quotes, a Christian may feel that God wants them to discriminate against homosexuals, in olden times maybe even kill them.

However there are also these quotes:

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

"...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)

"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)

I do not know of any Christians in my area that no not cut their hair, do not eat pork and do not wear clothes made of two kinda of material. I am also quite confident that even Christian farmers do plant more then one type of crop in their fields.

Then there are also quotes by Jesus about equality and acceptance:

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
— Jesus (from the Bible, Matthew 22:39)

"Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God."
Romans 15:7 (New International Version)

34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:34-35 (New International Version)

"But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
1 Samuel 16:7 (New International Version)

These quotes would suggest that Christians should not judge each other and so you would treat a homosexual just like anyone else, like your own family. For God will judge them, it isn't mans right to judge.

Now these anti homosexual and acceptance quotes obviously contradict one another. SO how do Christians choose which to obey? Should the Christians at my school treat Gays negatively like some bible quotes suggest, or positively like others?

I don;t understand how the process of picking and choosing which quotes to follow works. Like i said before, a don;t know of Christians in my area that don't eat pork, so they have dis obeyed that ruling surely, yet they do go to Church on a Sunday, obeying that ruling. I confuses me...(

Any anyone shed some light on this?

Good example of one of many bible contradictions; Although I believe any serious theologian will agree that the teachings of Jesus are held in higher authority than those of the old testament.

Hence I think if I was a christian I would follow Jesus, because he makes far more sense than the old testament God, and in fact says on the sermon on the mount that he is tightening and updating the original mosaic old testament law; so yeah. follow Jesus. Jesus says love thy neighbour and don't judge anyone else.

Then don't do it

I'm Catholic and we believe we should treat them as equals too.
That's not to say we believe what their DOING is right but to be just to them.

So the bible contradicts itself on whether to kill them or love them. What else is new.

Yeah really. Someone sexuality shouldn't be offensive to you. Unless they are in-your-face gays, those people annoy everyone.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

So the bible contradicts itself on whether to kill them or love them. What else is new.

He isn't asking for you to sneer at the bible.

He's asking what you think a good christian SHOULD do when given the choice. Even if you aren't one, you could at least help.

Yeah, like Carou said, Jesus' teachings were very much replacing the older covenant of the Old Testament. There is evidence of this in various places, such as when Jesus violates the Sabbath, when Jesus ignores Jewish tabboos (talking to the Samaritan woman, etc).

The idea most Christians take is that Jesus' preachings are a replacement for those of the Old Testament, it was God reaffirming his word on earth, whatever. It isn't necessarily a contradiction.

Therefore if I were to rely on the Bible for a stance to take, I would stick with Jesus' teachings of equality, tolerance and so on.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

Yeah really. Someone sexuality shouldn't be offensive to you. Unless they are in-your-face gays, those people annoy everyone.

Yea, like those in-your-face heterosexuals--so annoying.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

He's asking what you think a good christian SHOULD do when given the choice. Even if you aren't one, you could at least help.

I am helping by saying that the bible isn't a good place to look for answers.

Originally Posted by Siиdяed

It isn't necessarily a contradiction.

Looks pretty contradictory to me.

OK so Jesus's teachings are the better ones to follow these days. But what about those other ones, not eating pork for example. Jesus didn't say we could did he? Do some Christians groups not eat pork or shellfish, or have those rulings also been ignored now since they are the OT?

It just seems confusing to me. I mean depending on whether one believes Jesus and God are the same, or whether they are slightly separate entities. Gods rule is surely higher then that of his son? If God himself says homosexuals should not be permitted. Then Jesus saying love your neighbor surely means " love those who also obey God, but sinners, say homosexuals, don't obey God so they should be treated as the OT suggests."?

Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

It just seems confusing to me. I mean depending on whether one believes Jesus and God are the same, or whether they are slightly separate entities.

It's almost as if it's all made up nonsense, hmmm...

Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

OK so Jesus's teachings are the better ones to follow these days. But what about those other ones, not eating pork for example. Jesus didn't say we could did he? Do some Christians groups not eat pork or shellfish, or have those rulings also been ignored now since they are the OT?

It just seems confusing to me. I mean depending on whether one believes Jesus and God are the same, or whether they are slightly separate entities. Gods rule is surely higher then that of his son? If God himself says homosexuals should not be permitted. Then Jesus saying love your neighbor surely means " love those who also obey God, but sinners, say homosexuals, don't obey God so they should be treated as the OT suggests."?

If you believe both the OT and NT word for word, you deserve to be confused.

Doesn't the bible have a line that goes something like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" ?

I figure if you want to be looked upon as a closed minded and hostile religious person, then go for condemning a person for their choices when you yourself are without sin. Go ahead and shun them and make yourself look like a religious elitist, by all means.

In God's eyes, aren't all sins equal? So isn't disrespecting your parents, taking God's name in vain, and stealing all just as bad as being a homosexual in his eyes? That's odd, because not only do I see sinners trying to judge sinners but I also see many of those very same religious people that would condemn a homosexual cursing and stealing. They don't make their religion look very good at all.

yeah it is confusing. Like those anti abortion groups i suppose who are shunning others because they had to make a hard choice or especially those anti war groups that demonstrate at soldiers funerals, i don't think disrespecting the dead is very good in Gods eyes, so they should think about what their doing first..

But still can anyone answer the no pork/ no cutting hair/ no two crops in same field, etc? I mean ok they aren't on the commandments but they are rulings surely?

So eating pork is a sin, cutting ones hair is a sin and having a vegetable garden would be a sin too.

I guess this is why Muslims don't eat pork( correct me if i'm wrong) and why Sikhs don't cut their hair. SO they are obeyed these rules( rules of most main stream religions it seems) yet Christians generally do not from what i have noticed around me, why is this?

No one really follows the strict tenets of their religion. Every religious foundation, from the Bible to the teachings of Buddha, is parsed and filtered through the prism of modern social consensus. Christianity has been more prone to such filtering because of the stark divide between the old and the new testaments. Jesus' own sentiments, that the Pharisees were following the letter of Jewish law, but not its spirit, are indicative of this phenomena taking place even in those early years.

I think the unfortunate thing about this is that such changes in the social consensus of what is moral are not incorporated into most religions. Instead, the primitive laws remain to be readopted by fundamentalists, who are driven to violate modern conceptions of what is right in order to comply with primitive rules, while others are tempted to justify their actions by further reinterpreting the laws of their religion to suit them.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

If you believe both the OT and NT word for word, you deserve to be confused.

Agreed. There are lots of ways of interpreting the Bible, from all out-and-out hardcore fundementalist word-for-word belief to simply taking them as stories with messages behind them. You can either see them as God's Word or the interpretation of God's Word by people from a more primitive tribe than our own.

Moonbeam, would you perhaps like to try explaining things instead of looking like an ignorant, close-minded anti-religious spammer? I'd like to hear an aetheist's take on the issues we're discussing, but not one-line dismissals without any suggestion of reasoning or deduction.
Cheers.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Looks pretty contradictory to me.

Did you read my post? Or Carou's perhaps?

The view was put forth that they were not contradictions, but rather the old covenant, the old laws on homosexuality (and various other trivia) from the Old Testament were replaced by those of Jesus, which were of equality and so forth (the OP has some good examples).

At least try to sound like you're following the thread.

Solution: stop being religious, and release yourself from confusion, restrictions and fear.

Originally Posted by Siиdяed

Agreed. There are lots of ways of interpreting the Bible, from all out-and-out hardcore fundementalist word-for-word belief to simply taking them as stories with messages behind them. You can either see them as God's Word or the interpretation of God's Word by people from a more primitive tribe than our own.

Moonbeam, would you perhaps like to try explaining things instead of looking like an ignorant, close-minded anti-religious spammer? I'd like to hear an aetheist's take on the issues we're discussing, but not one-line dismissals without any suggestion of reasoning or deduction.
Cheers.

I'm as good as an atheist.

do i Not count

Originally Posted by Marvo

Solution: stop being religious, and release yourself from confusion, restrictions and fear.

I'm pretty damn certain non-religious folk have plenty of their own confusion, restrictions, and fears. At least, I am. Maybe I'm in the minority, but something tells me I'm not.

Ah but the thing is, how does one know how literally and how heavily he should obey his religious teachings? Surely God wants his followers to obey all the laws he sets down. However obeying all of them cannot be done as some contradict one another, so since in the OT it is more God's word, and he says homosexuality is wrong and those who commit it should be punished, it would make more sense to follow this ruling, thus discriminate against homosexuals. Then to follow the more recent NT teachings of Jesus where he suggests loving ones neighbor as ones self, since he may have meant love the ones who are not knowlingly sinful as much, those who act "Christian". Since homosexuals are knowingly sinning, surely if one wants to obey God as much as possible, he should discriminate them as they as known sinners?

Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

Ah but the thing is, how does one know how literally and how heavily he should obey his religious teachings? Surely God wants his followers to obey all the laws he sets down. However obeying all of them cannot be done as some contradict one another?

Well wouldn't you at this stage put 2 and 2 together and realise that maybe you shouldn't be following a contradictory religion?

Anyway, it doesnt contradict, reread mine and sindreds posts.

^^

Ok so your suggesting the NT holds president over the OT. But there are many things discussed in the OT which are not in the NT. If what is discussed in the OT seems old fashioned to our standards but is not changed in the NT, would one still follow that OT way or drop it. Surely Gods decisions do not change, and if they have changed to fit our new society, shouldn't be give us a new set of laws? Considering it has been 2000 years since his Son came to enlighten us, 2000 years is a long time without any more intervention, which could help maybe confused followers.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Yea, like those in-your-face heterosexuals--so annoying.

lmao

What?! The bible doesn't just say Homosexuality is wrong, it tells you to Kill them all. You should point this out to your "strong" Xian friends . This is why there are no fundamentalists .

Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

^^

Ok so your suggesting the NT holds president over the OT. But there are many things discussed in the OT which are not in the NT. If what is discussed in the OT seems old fashioned to our standards but is not changed in the NT, would one still follow that OT way or drop it. Surely Gods decisions do not change, and if they have changed to fit our new society, shouldn't be give us a new set of laws? Considering it has been 2000 years since his Son came to enlighten us, 2000 years is a long time without any more intervention, which could help maybe confused followers.

Alright, look, Im not a christian. I cant defend this.

It doesnt make sense to me either. Ask a christian.


I suppose a christian would probably have to conclude for themselves. come up with a good compromise.


But I know it doesn't make sense. Thats christianity for you