For religious people, but having almost nothing to do with religion

[Needcatscan]

So I've been wondering about ghosts and the like. Being an atheist I am also a rationalist, so I have always dismissed the paranormal. Yet I have had people in freethinkers clubs and personal friends at work tell me about paranormal experiences where they would have no advantage to lying. Things like objects floating in air, convincing ouija board experiences, and seeing ghosts of dead relatives. Many of these could be explained by lack of sleep, sleeping narcotics, or simply false hope in seeing dead loved ones. But specific ones really can't. My friend at work and her mother were using a ouija board which told them that their new house use to be an orphanage that lit on fire and killed most of the kids. They looked it up at the library to find it was true, neither of them had a clue. Another person saw her dead great grandmother in the middle of the night (who she had never seen before) and while looking at a photo album a year later with her mother, saw the woman and recgonized her. It turned out the mother had seen the apparation as well. So, I'm extremely skeptical, but at the same time there is no motivation to lie about these happenings. If I was still Christian I would say it was demons; as an atheists I am prone to believe it is all in their heads, but I'm not really sure. I was curious about what you guys think of this subject.

[cuddleyperson]

well i would have thought being in any main stream religion, one would certainly denounce ghosts as real dead people, so yes i suppose the only other possibility would be demons tricking us. In a Christian group at our school the large majority to believe in ghosts, spirits, Ouija boards etc. Basically it was like you said they believe in the dark power of such things as being real( as in Ouija boards can work), but that it was the power of evil in such devices and so they should never be tampered with.

[Carôusoul]

I think as dissapointing as it is, there is always an explanation. Ouija boards in particular are interesting because they often bring out our subconscious etc. Something worth watching is British Illusionist Derren Brown's "seance" Where he got a load of people from the public and held a seance and told them they were really trying to contact the dead. In fact I'll let wikipedia describe exactly what he did: he brought students from Roehampton University together for a live séance. He held the event at Eltham Hall, claiming the location had a history of paranormal activity after 12 people killed themselves in a suicide pact in 1974. Brown then proceeded to demonstrate the methods used by spiritualists. The show attempted to involve the television audience with interactive activities, the first being to identify one of the members of the suicide pact by looking at photographs. The 12 pictures were shown on screen in a set pattern, with half of them in colour and half black and white. The viewer was instructed to choose one of the colour images that they "feel a connection with". Brown then directed the viewers in a movement pattern between the photographs (for example, move left or right to one of the adjacent black and white photographs). The positioning and movement instructions were carefully planned to ensure that no matter which photograph was initially chosen the viewer would finish on the picture of "Jane". Ten of the students also chose Jane. During the following Ouija board scene, the "spirit" guided the students to spell the name Jane. Two of the students, along with the television viewers, were asked to write the name of a city. Both students chose London. The final scene, the séance itself, saw the group "contact" Jane. One of the students spoke as if she were Jane, giving details of her life. A letter and short film confirmed the accuracy of the details. Brown went on to explain some of the manipulations he had used, including the photograph positioning/instructions and the use of the ideomotor effect during the Ouija board scene. The suicide pact had not taken place and "Jane" was introduced to the students at the end of the show. In his book, Tricks of the Mind, Brown reveals that, contrary to claims when the show was aired, Séance didn't go out live. He said it was necessary to make people believe that it did at the time. Channel 4 received 700 complaints, most before the episode was aired. Viewers who felt "something unusual" were invited to call a phone number, and callers were told that the show was carefully planned, and that no paranormal activities were taking place. Brown also warned viewers about the impending Ouija board scene, advising those who objected for "religious reasons or otherwise" to stop watching the show. Basically he showed how suceptible we are subconciously to try and make these things real even if we don't know it or fool ourselves into believing. As far as ghosts go, I have met various people with no reason to lie who have told me stories. I know there is an explanation, because I know how strong wishful thinking and memory can distort things like this; I know because I've experienced similar things myself, weird events that my mind links to the supernatural, and being a weaker being i would attribute, but upon inspection and a cleared mind I almost always see the cause etc. Physical manifestations I am certain are possibly hallucinations of some sort. Anyhow I certainly don't believe in a conventional afterlife. I leave room for the possibility of a scientific explanation we don't know; ie some kind of time warpish business, but this is the furthest I will lean.

[syncron]

Ok, here is an experience I would love to have an explanation for: I played with the Ouija Board an "contacted" several entities with a friend. I went home; and for a little over a year after that, I was "visited" every other night. Scratches were to be heard spreading from the ceiling down to the baseboards of my bedroom. When I was alone in the same room as my electric piano, it would manually turn on, and play one note, and only that note. Then I moved to a different country (not because of the haunting), and it ended. I remember it all very clearly, so distortion is out of the question.

[Mes Tarrant]

Ok, here is an experience I would love to have an explanation for: I played with the Ouija Board an "contacted" several entities with a friend. I went home; and for a little over a year after that, I was "visited" every other night. Scratches were to be heard spreading from the ceiling down to the baseboards of my bedroom. When I was alone in the same room as my electric piano, it would manually turn on, and play one note, and only that note. Then I moved to a different country (not because of the haunting), and it ended. I remember it all very clearly, so distortion is out of the question. That's interesting, but not mind blowing or anything. I hear scratches in my house all the time. You may have imagined all of it, including the piano part. I don't have a strong viewpoint on the paranormal at this point, but I certainly do not take the ouija board seriously. I did when I was a tween though.

[Universal Mind]

I think the one "paranormal" thing that might have something to it is psychic ability, and even that would just be a scientific perceptual phenomenon that is so fuzzy and unpredictable that science can't yet explain it and has not documented it yet. There is something else to consider. People love to lie, I have slowly come to realize. A very high percentage of people love to make stuff up and tell it to others so they can sound like they have interesting stories to tell. Psychosis is also much more common than most people realize, and hallucinations happen all the time. There are also hallucinations that sane people have, such as those that happen during false awakenings and left over sleep paralysis. I woke up on my couch one time and "saw" a stuffed giraffe biting my toes, and I FELT it. It hurt! I couldn't do anything about it because I was still having sleep paralysis, and the whole thing was probably a false awakening. Combinations of lies, hallucination memories, and psychic awarenesses can explain every phenomenon mentioned so far in this thread.

[Mes Tarrant]

^^ That's a very intriguing post, UM! I hadn't even considered the part about people lying, but now that you mention it, it sounds quite plausible. I did that myself - when I was a kid and in my early teens, I would most definitely exaggerate any sort of "paranormal" experience. I also moved the ouija board every single time, but my imagination was good enough for me to still be able to enjoy it and pretend like it was moving on its own.

[Universal Mind]

^^ That's a very intriguing post, UM! I hadn't even considered the part about people lying, but now that you mention it, it sounds quite plausible. I did that myself - when I was a kid and in my early teens, I would most definitely exaggerate any sort of "paranormal" experience. I also moved the ouija board every single time, but my imagination was good enough for me to still be able to enjoy it and pretend like it was moving on its own. I think that is exactly what happens with a ouija board. When I was a kid, my brother and his friend asked a ouija board how old I will be when I die. "It" said I would be 32. I brought that up to my brother on my 33rd birthday.

[Taosaur]

People love to lie, I have slowly come to realize. A very high percentage of people love to make stuff up and tell it to others so they can sound like they have interesting stories to tell. Sadly true--people not only make stuff up, but substantially revise their memories without realizing it. I can accept revelatory vision and some psychic ability, but I would call those variant ways of processing information, or perceptual shifts. Ghosts and hauntings, however, have never convinced me.

[syncron]

Hmm, I was expecting those replies. I don't know what to say about the Ouija Board, the person I did it with really gave me his trust. Fake or not, it began the haunting/hallucinations/psychic phenomenon. Just for the record (although it really doesn't matter), I don't like to be called a liar, or even assumed to be one. I strive to be honest in my life every chance I get. As for my memory, it's perfect. Nothing was imagined, and I find it hard to believe that they were merely illusions considering my little brother recalls the sounds too. I guess it will forever remain a mystery.... However, one theory that came to mind once was telekinesis. What if I caused all of that?

[Riot Maker]

There is no doubt in my mind that other entitites other than us exist.

[Sornaensis]

^ Well that's a given. Other life forms exist, no? Only a madman would argue no.

[Riot Maker]

exsactly my point knucklehead.

[syncron]

The question is, life in the paranormal alternate universe? EDIT: Let's keep the insults to a minimum guys, I hate to see that garbage

[Sornaensis]

The question is, life in the paranormal alternate universe? That, however, by definition, is impossible. How can everything be next to everything? Can you stand next to yourself in the literal sense? Think about that....

[syncron]

I could refer to an out of body experience. But even that is too complicated. As real as they may seem, it may just be projected consciousness. But then that makes me think of the "Waking" world. Is it illusion? What the heck is real? Nevermind, these questions can result in a huge debate with plenty of aggravation.

[Sornaensis]

I did say in the literal sense .

[Riot Maker]

@seismosaur- a mirrior. Hahaha knucklehead isn't even considered an insult anymore, FIO. But i do belive in the parnormal. Read the following, I have alot of ghost stories, I will share my favourite one. My great uncle and his wife just moved into a new house. All was well for about a month then they started hearing mysterious noises. They would hear footsteps while they were the only ones in the house, they would have doors slam shot and open up without explantion. They got sick of all these noises and decided that they would be better off just to move. They were in the car ready to leave the house for the last time after they packed all thier belongings up. The wife decided to take one last photo of the supposed haunted house and what she got was more then she barginned for. In the photo, in the up stairs window, stood a tall man with a top hat on watching as they left. I have seen the photo numerous times and it's legit, one of those poloroid's.

[Sornaensis]

Paranormal is impossible by definition. Foreignormal is, however, possible.

[syncron]

Wow, that must of been horrible. That stuff really makes you think. Foreignormal? lol

[Riot Maker]

Paranormal is impossible by definition. Foreignormal is, however, possible. PARANORMAL-Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation. Edit: Syncron- yes it does. I just wish everyone could experince it thought so there wouldn't be any skeptics.

[Sornaensis]

Define normal that isn't specific to yourself.

[Riot Maker]

Define normal that isn't specific to yourself. Normal that isn't specific to my self- in accordance with scientific laws.

[StephenT]

My cousin had a poltergeist in his house haha. They came home and everything was fucked up all over the place. Furniture and things flipped over, things tossed around out of drawers and cabinets, etc. They thought it was robbers, so they called the police. Nothing was stolen. One of the things was all the towels were thrown into the bath tube, so they folded them back up and put them in the drawer. They walked out and no more than 5 minutes later when they came back they were all back the same way they were before. One day when they came home there was writing on the walls saying that the ghost followed them home from the park and liked their dog. I think the ghost also called them but I don't remember. My cousin took his dog over to my uncles house and left it in a fence with a deadbolt lock. There was only one key, and when they got back, the lock was undone and the dog was shaking like crazy on the driveway. This was a lab, and the kind that would run off and explore if you let it go. My cousin and his friend were sitting in his living room talking about it, when his friend felt something go up his spine, like a massage chair does. He stood up and was like what the fuck! Then a telephone levitated up and flew across the room. There were other things I think, but I don't remember them at the moment. I wasn't there for any of it, so I don't know if it was real or not, this is just was I had heard from family.

[Riot Maker]

My cousin had a poltergeist in his house haha. They came home and everything was fucked up all over the place. Furniture and things flipped over, things tossed around out of drawers and cabinets, etc. They thought it was robbers, so they called the police. Nothing was stolen. One of the things was all the towels were thrown into the bath tube, so they folded them back up and put them in the drawer. They walked out and no more than 5 minutes later when they came back they were all back the same way they were before. One day when they came home there was writing on the walls saying that the ghost followed them home from the park and liked their dog. I think the ghost also called them but I don't remember. My cousin took his dog over to my uncles house and left it in a fence with a deadbolt lock. There was only one key, and when they got back, the lock was undone and the dog was shaking like crazy on the driveway. This was a lab, and the kind that would run off and explore if you let it go. My cousin and his friend were sitting in his living room talking about it, when his friend felt something go up his spine, like a massage chair does. He stood up and was like what the fuck! Then a telephone levitated up and flew across the room. There were other things I think, but I don't remember them at the moment. I wasn't there for any of it, so I don't know if it was real or not, this is just was I had heard from family. Man thats actually really badass if it's true.