God HAS to be Omnipotent

[Sornaensis]

Why? Because, assuming he created everything, he has power over it. Therefore he would be omnipotent. Also assuming that he does exist, then free will cannot exist, because he is omnipotent. Free Will fails then. So the bible has just bit itself on the ass.

[Pyrofan1]

Also assuming that he does exist, then free will cannot exist, because he is omnipotent. free will can exist if god is omnipotent, but if he's also omniscient then free will cannot exist.

[Sornaensis]

Omniciency comes with omnipotence.

[Xei]

Knowledge is power.

[Sornaensis]

Knowledge is power.

[Pyrofan1]

no, omnipotence does not mean omniscience. Omnipotence gives you the ability to become omniscient. So you could be omnipotent, but not omniscient.

[Xei]

I hope you realise that 'omniscience comes with omnipotence' is a synonym of 'knowledge is power'. -_-

[thegnome54]

Omniscience and omnipotence are stupid concepts that make no sense in nearly any situation, even in the imagination of us humans. Nothing about them really holds up to logic or reason.

[Xei]

Hmmm not so sure. Say the universe was a matrixesque simulation. Couldn't the person (inverted commas) running it be omnipotent, with regards to our universe?

[thegnome54]

Hmmm not so sure. Say the universe was a matrixesque simulation. Couldn't the person (inverted commas) running it be omnipotent, with regards to our universe? Then they're not omnipotent. "Pretty damned potent" is not at all the same as "OMNIpotent".

[Xei]

'Not in our universe' was the crux of that really; wouldn't they be omnipotent if you define our reality as the reality? But yeah, there is no such thing as omnipotence really, as you say; there would be the second hierachy of reality to consider.

[StephenT]

"Pretty damned potent" is not at all the same as "OMNIpotent". Very well put, yet funny.

[thegnome54]

But yeah, there is no such thing as omnipotence really, as you say; there would be the second hierachy of reality to consider. Deeper than this is the general problem of the definition. I take it as meaning "the ability to do anything". See? "Anything". "Things" do not really exist, they are abstractions made by the human mind to simplify the world around us. Omnipotence gets you stupid questions like "Can you make yourself not-omnipotent?", "Can you make circles squares", "Can you microwave a burrito so hot you yourself could not eat it", etc. The idea of 'potence' is fair enough - the ability to do some things. However, as soon as you go absolute and extreme you will run into a myriad of problems.

[TimeStopper]

There'd be no point in creating a universe in which you know how everything would happen. Why would a scientist run an experiment? To test a hypothesis. The creation of the universe by a deity implies that the deity apparently isn't omnipotent.

[thegnome54]

There'd be no point in creating a universe in which you know how everything would happen. Why would a scientist run an experiment? To test a hypothesis. The creation of the universe by a deity implies that the deity apparently isn't omnipotent. No... what if he just woke up one morning and decided to conjure up some flesh-monkeys? Worse yet than assigning a God omnipotence is assigning it human characteristics.

[Sornaensis]

I hope you realise that 'omniscience comes with omnipotence' is a synonym of 'knowledge is power'. -_- Of course I did. Hence ''

[StephenT]

There'd be no point in creating a universe in which you know how everything would happen. Why would a scientist run an experiment? To test a hypothesis. The creation of the universe by a deity implies that the deity apparently isn't omnipotent. I think that the Bible says that God created everything so that they all can worship him. Godly narcissism.

[dragonoverlord]

Why does the possibility of an omnipotent god turn free will on its ass? I heard a theory somewhere that we are all god and we are just god split into many consciousnesses but when we die we realise once again we are all "one". Is that what you mean?

[StephenT]

Why does the possibility of an omnipotent god turn free will on its ass? I heard a theory somewhere that we are all god and we are just god split into many consciousnesses but when we die we realise once again we are all "one". Is that what you mean? No, he means that if God is omnipotent, he is also omniscient. This is because all powerful includes knowledge. If one is omniscient, then they know everything that will ever happen in the future. If that is true, then everything is set in stone, and it is impossible to diverge from that future. This means that free will couldn't exist. That theory is extremely stupid.

[dragonoverlord]

No, he means that if God is omnipotent, he is also omniscient. This is because all powerful includes knowledge. If one is omniscient, then they know everything that will ever happen in the future. If that is true, then everything is set in stone, and it is impossible to diverge from that future. This means that free will couldn't exist. That theory is extremely stupid. ah ok thanks for clearing that up for me.

[dragonoverlord]

No, he means that if God is omnipotent, he is also omniscient. This is because all powerful includes knowledge. If one is omniscient, then they know everything that will ever happen in the future. If that is true, then everything is set in stone, and it is impossible to diverge from that future. This means that free will couldn't exist. That theory is extremely stupid. Ok im just putting the dots together of what you just wrote. Now if understand one of the basic things of christianity it states that free will was given to humans by god but it also states god is omnipotent? Thus christianity contradicts itself in a major way. Correct me if im wrong.

[thegnome54]

Now if understand one of the basic things of christianity it states that free will was given to humans by god but it also states god is omnipotent? Thus christianity contradicts itself in a major way. Correct me if im wrong. It's actually not a contradiction, since 'omnipotent' should include the ability to brazenly defy logic and reason. God doesn't give a shit about paradoxes.

[StephenT]

God doesn't give a shit about paradoxes.

[Xaqaria]

I think these concepts are so difficult, because we can only begin an attempt of thinking about them by putting them in human terms; a realm in which they are illogical and impossible. However; any god of the universe would not be anthropomorphic, of course, and so any way that we might attempt to understand its knowledge or power or lack thereof would be intrinsically flawed in that we are incapable of seeing it from the universe's perspective. Any paradox we might percieve is due to a flawed human paradigm being applied to greater than human concepts, and not intrinsic in those concepts themselves.

[thegnome54]

Any paradox we might percieve is due to a flawed human paradigm being applied to greater than human concepts, and not intrinsic in those concepts themselves. I beg to differ. Do you mean to imply that the concept itself is immune to the pitfalls of human thought which produce the paradoxes arising from it? The concept itself is 'due to a flawed human paradigm'.