Once and for all, somebody explain how sexual preference is a choice.

[Universal Mind]

I know that actions are choices. I just don't understand how preference is a choice. How can somebody decide to be or not be attracted to something? Every time I pose that question in a debate about homosexuality, the question is either dodged with a tangent or flat out completely ignored. Nobody ever explains it. Somebody please explain it. Thanks.

[DeathCell]

I'd explain it but I'm with you on this one. I have no understanding of homosexuality, all I know is it doesn't affect me so... I live my life.

[AirRick101]

what's up, Universal Mind!! Holla at da old skool, foo!!! XD I can't explain it, I only have an opinion. Basically, I don't think sexual preference is a choice. I think if someone is gay, they just happen to feel that way, and that they can't help it. The world is catered to heterosexuality, and the fact is, homosexuals in general are the victims of society's prejudice. I don't think that if sexual orientation was a cold, logical choice, would someone willingly welcome a barrage of persecution and judgment by the rest of society upon themselves. However, I believe sexual orientation is not a choice, and because of that, it's really not these people's fault that they feel this way, and I believe they should NOT be persecuted for such a petty thing. Society just bashes homosexuality to make themselves feel better for every other human flaw they possess.

[Universal Mind]

what's up, Universal Mind!! Holla at da old skool, foo!!! XD Hey, old bud!!! It's good to see you back here again. The pool of clientele here changes like this is a college district bar, yet you and I are here after all these years. Society just bashes homosexuality to make themselves feel better for every other human flaw they possess. That's probably the bottom line. When that is what drives people, they can't have rational conversations about where they stand. I don't think too many dissenters are going to be commenting in this thread. It will be interesting to see.

[Bonsay]

I don't think it's a choice. But I guess most people, if they ever manage to think hard enough to understand the point you made above, think that then homosexuals should just suppress their basic instinct. You know, for the common good. I don't get it really, what's with people not minding their own business? It's like, whenever an "anti-gay" person sees or thinks something homosexual, he has to consider every aspect of a homosexuals life, just so he can whine about how grossed out he is. I wouldn't want to get in bed with another guy, but who gives a shit if some X person does it.

[Kael Seoras]

think that then homosexuals should just suppress their basic instinct. You know, for the common good. I've encountered some "tolerant" Christians who say they are ok with homosexuality (and they never fail to bring up the fact that they have gay friends) but they believe that homosexual sex is wrong. One girl once said that she believes it is a sin, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to Hell. What then, may I ask, is the problem?

[DeathCell]

I've encountered some "tolerant" Christians who say they are ok with homosexuality (and they never fail to bring up the fact that they have gay friends) but they believe that homosexual sex is wrong. One girl once said that she believes it is a sin, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to Hell. What then, may I ask, is the problem? Really depends on the church and what type of Christianity. A lot of churches ignore the bullshit contained within the bible. (not as many as we wished)

[Wolfsbane]

The only people who think it's a choice are straight homophobes. They don't know what it's like to be gay. How dare they tell me how I feel. The word of a homosexual alone should be enough. It'd be like a man saying that period cramps aren't anything to whine about, or a girl telling a guy to suck it up when he gets kicked in the gonads. I hate when people try to say, "If you've never been with a girl, how do you know you like them? If you've never been with a guy, how do you know you're not straight?" The same can be said to them. How does a "straight" person know they're not gay? How does a "straight" virgin know they're straight? It's something you just know in your heart, just as a straight person knows they're straight. I've met some Christians who believe that it's not a choice, but I've met many who think otherwise. As if a child is going to say, "I want to be a lesbian when I grow up!" The religious zealots want to believe that it's choice. Otherwise, that means their god made those people gay. It would shatter their entire belief system. My mom just thinks that homosexuality is the result of "possession by devil spirits!" The only choice involved is accepting yourself.

[Kael Seoras]

A lot of churches ignore the bullshit contained within the bible. (not as many as we wished) Yea, I'm in one of those...I wish more could see reason... The only people who think it's a choice are straight homophobes. They don't know what it's like to be gay. How dare they tell me how I feel. The word of a homosexual alone should be enough. It'd be like a man saying that period cramps aren't anything to whine about, or a girl telling a guy to suck it up when he gets kicked in the gonads. I hate when people try to say, "If you've never been with a girl, how do you know you like them? If you've never been with a guy, how do you know you're not straight?" The same can be said to them. How does a "straight" person know they're not gay? How does a "straight" virgin know they're straight? It's something you just know in your heart, just as a straight person knows they're straight. I've met some Christians who believe that it's not a choice, but I've met many who think otherwise. As if a child is going to say, "I want to be a lesbian when I grow up!" The religious zealots want to believe that it's choice. Otherwise, that means their god made those people gay. It would shatter their entire belief system. My mom just thinks that homosexuality is the result of "possession by devil spirits!" The only choice involved is accepting yourself. Yea, no kidding! I've found so many testimonies of homosexuals who tried to make themselves straight...and of course couldn't, because homosexuality isn't a choice. So they accepted their homosexuality...there's so many stories like this out there, and really, the only way they can be interpreted is that homosexuality is natural. I mean, what do these conservative Christians think? that all these stories are lies? come on now... As for that how do you know if you've never bla bla bla...give me a break. What, you don't feel sexual attraction until you've actually had a relationship? how are you supposed to initiate it then?

[Tara]

I love the ladies and I never chose to. At a biological level, homosexuality is pretty much "wrong". Species are supposed to reproduce and pass on their genes to the next generation. Homosexuals can't do that. But as humans, we've gone beyond that. We experience love and it's more than just sex. It's not just about reproducing anymore. So just because two men or women aren't supposed to be together, for the sake of biology, doesn't mean they can't. I mean seriously, can't people expand their minds just a tad? We didn't choose to be gay just like handicaps didn't choose to be handicapped. It's a genetic defect that we can't change, so just move on damn it. Also, homosexuality occurs in the wild. Scientists found two male penguins together once, and they obviously couldn't lay an egg, so the scientists gave them an egg and they cared for it and the baby which soon hatched. Dolphins also show homosexual tendencies and even have sex just for pleasure like we do. The bonobo monkey is the most amazing though. They have sex with each other, MxM, FxF or MxF, when saying hello, solving a dispute, just for fun, and to socialize. They've even been recorded having lesbian orgies. Crazy stuff. There's an article on Wiki called "Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom" or something if you want to go read about it.

[Kael Seoras]

The bonobo monkey is the most amazing though. They have sex with each other, MxM, FxF or MxF, when saying hello, solving a dispute, just for fun, and to socialize. They've even been recorded having lesbian orgies. Crazy stuff. holy crap that's a happy species

[Tara]

holy crap that's a happy species Yep. In my "Animal Life" book it states that: "Bonobos use sex in a variety of social contexts - to resolve conflicts, as a greeting, as reconciliation after a fight, to soothe youngsters, and in exchange for gifts of food. Rather than being purely a means of reproducing, sex is a part of everyday life for bonobos. Captive studies reveal that individuals of all ages and of the same or opposite sex mate with each other and, although mating behavior occurs very frequently, females reproduce young every five to six years." It also says that they have sex to resolve power struggles and that bonobos live peacefully, but are increasingly rare in the wild. They're way ahead of us on the social agenda. - Moose

[Wolfsbane]

I love the ladies and I never chose to. At a biological level, homosexuality is pretty much "wrong". Species are supposed to reproduce and pass on their genes to the next generation. Homosexuals can't do that. But as humans, we've gone beyond that. We experience love and it's more than just sex. It's not just about reproducing anymore. So just because two men or women aren't supposed to be together, for the sake of biology, doesn't mean they can't. I mean seriously, can't people expand their minds just a tad? We didn't choose to be gay just like handicaps didn't choose to be handicapped. It's a genetic defect that we can't change, so just move on damn it. Also, homosexuality occurs in the wild. Scientists found two male penguins together once, and they obviously couldn't lay an egg, so the scientists gave them an egg and they cared for it and the baby which soon hatched. Dolphins also show homosexual tendencies and even have sex just for pleasure like we do. The bonobo monkey is the most amazing though. They have sex with each other, MxM, FxF or MxF, when saying hello, solving a dispute, just for fun, and to socialize. They've even been recorded having lesbian orgies. Crazy stuff. There's an article on Wiki called "Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom" or something if you want to go read about it. Funny you should say that... Two of my friend and I call ourselves "lesbian moose lovers." :] I think that homosexuality may be a part of nature's plan as a means of population control. Nature kills off individuals with disease, predators and genetic defects. If every born individual were able to reproduce, the entire species would die off due to lack of resources. Homosexuality may be like that. No accidental pregnancy, at least. They've found gay parasites, too. Two males try to attach, but their bond isn't as tight as a male and female would be. When separated by "disapproving scientists" (quote from the book I read it in), they reattach. I bet that baby penguin who had two fathers grew up to be gay, much like a human child with same-sex parents will inevitably grow up gay. Biologically speaking, the human death rate should be far higher than it is. We save individuals who would otherwise die, we save babies who may not have lived to be born. All this medicine and sanitization is fsking with nature, but nobody is bitching about that. The bible says to "go forth and procreate." Are couples who hate children disobeying their heavenly father? Just because you're able to procreate doesn't mean you should. (I really wish potential parents had to pass an IQ test.) I see it as a blessing, not a defect. to soothe youngsters PEDOPHILES. Yea, no kidding! I've found so many testimonies of homosexuals who tried to make themselves straight...and of course couldn't, because homosexuality isn't a choice. So they accepted their homosexuality...there's so many stories like this out there, and really, the only way they can be interpreted is that homosexuality is natural. I mean, what do these conservative Christians think? that all these stories are lies? come on now... As for that how do you know if you've never bla bla bla...give me a break. What, you don't feel sexual attraction until you've actually had a relationship? how are you supposed to initiate it then? A gay man trying to become straight would be like me trying to become a unicorn. I've never had a serious gf, but I don't think my hormones are lying to me when they say "Daaaamn that girl is fine!" There's even little kids who show sure-fire signs of being gay. They don't know what attraction is or what society thinks. They just know they feel drawn to members of the same gender. If anything they would try to mimic their parents' behavior, but they don't.

[kichu]

Hey, old bud!!! It's good to see you back here again. The pool of clientele here changes like this is a college district bar, yet you and I are here after all these years. Aww...that was cute. That made me feel like it felt when I first joined DV. * sigh *

[ClouD]

Do we choose to dislike certain foods against others? Thoughts are either for or against, there is no neutral thought. So what deems attraction or repulsion? Now, there's two entities only that that could be attributed to. Oneself, or the other. So that's the question, is it the other, be that God, nature, mind (if it's separate from oneself), etc. I didn't mention people, but considering the question that's irrelevant. The environment 'one' is in, including people, relates to nature, mind, God, whatever you'd like to call it. I say 'the other', to label elements of the question. There doesn't need to be a third party (separating God), because it is still not 'oneself' in regards to the question, but the other. So I'm asking, what am I doing? What input am I into the collaboration of me and the other? I suggest that level of awareness is that deems control. Looking at a lucid dream, this seems to be true. Looking at daily life, this seems to be true. With uncertainty, I'd say that awareness is choice, but choice over what? Choice over choice, I think. Even with astute awareness, the body can still feel tired. It can ache and I wouldn't say I can control that. I can control the attention, so that is why choice over choice. So, regardless of the body, with a certain level of awareness one can attribute attention to desires, feelings, etc., even though it is the other. Relating the other to oneself, do we contribute to the other? Do we choose certain thoughts? Thoughts can be watched as clouds, but they can also be directed, manipulated, clung to, thrown. Are we, through awareness directing attention and thought, enhancing their affect? Yes, we are. If we blow on a ripple in a pond that's already there, it is going to affect other ripples in that pond. This can be disputed because is that blowing also part of the other? Are we just awareness, or are we one and the other, thus just One totally, applying us to us? This seems most logical to me, when it's looked at in depth. Either I'm awareness and not the other, the else, the affected, or I am both. Whichever way, nulls the point of those ideas against gay marriage (which I think is why you asked this), because either one has no input to 'God', 'The Other' (etc), or one is God. Please, show me if you believe I am wrong.

[Rakjavik]

I just don't understand how preference is a choice. How can somebody decide to be or not be attracted to something? It is quite interesting that even the straight homophones have "kinks". Some people get off sexually from odd and different things. Look at The Amazing Atheist (a youtuber) who likes to have girls sit on his face. This turns him on sexually. Look at my Fag Hag who loves domination, kicking and squeezing men's genitals during sex. Did they choose these "kinks"? Or is it just something that turns them on? Just like gay people get turned on by the same sex, and heteros get turned on by the opposite. I think we have just evolved past pleasure only for reproductive needs.

[Universal Mind]

Wow, not one homophobe fundamentalist has responded in here after 3 days. What a shock.

[Howie]

Do others see that people often get labeled if they do not find a particular race attractive. For example if a person does not find Chinese or of Asian decent attractive or perhaps someone does not find a colored person attractive, they are now a bigot? Someone is a racist because they do not find a colored person attractive. This is not to say that someone you initially thought was unattractive could not may grow on you. The gay vs. straight idea seems pretty clear to me. I would be interested in a counter argument. As I suggested above you may find a specific race attractive under a number of different scenarios, but I personally cannot see how one would find the opposite gender attractive regardless of the personal level of a relationship. Which raises the question can you turn gay? Do people who are straight turn gay? Were they always gay?

[ClouD]

^ With myself, a certain attraction developed after an attraction had grown for girls. I was sexually interested in girls for longer than a year without any attraction to boys. Then, it went into attraction of boys and girls at the same time. Now it seems to change frequently between solely one gender to the other. I don't know what control I have, since I've not tried to inhibit either attraction to any great length before. A fetish? A random desire? I definitely didn't choose to like boys at that age. I remember feeling like I shouldn't like boys, and felt guilty sometimes after thinking about it. It was always a compulsion, the whole 'kinky' side of it. Now I don't know what to decide, so I don't. Sometimes I feel attracted to girls, other times boys; can I change that attraction? I don't really know.

[Wolfsbane]

I think it depends on the person. Sometimes it may be caused at birth or early childhood. My best bet is that it has to do with hormones. If a child is sexually assaulted, they may become gay because they grow up seeing the opposite gender as a source of pain. I think that if somebody "turns" gay (let's say in their 40s), then they already had the potential to be gay. It may just take the right kind of spark to get it going. Maybe it's like a suppressed memory. I was raised in a religiously homophobic house. To this day, my only family members who know are my sister and two cousins. I certainly wasn't raised with the idea that being gay is okay (which can refute homophobes who say gay parents raise gay babies). It just gradually happened. For me, sexuality is a bit fluid. I started off only liking girls a little bit, and then it was about 50/50. Then when I was 15 I swore I was asexual (note: asexual has a COMPLETELY different meaning when it comes to humans). I kept looking, but nothing sparked my interest at all. Then I had a bf for 18 months, and then had a gf. Now I'm about 90% lesbian. I prefer girls, but I'm willing to make an exception if a really great guy comes along. I just hate these terms. Lesbian, bi.. Neither one really fits me. I would say pansexual because I like people for who they are, but nobody knows what pansexual means. To keep it simple, I have to stick to the most basic, ill-fitting terms. I just know that you can't force yourself into a sexuality. I really wanted to be 100% lesbian for a while, but I knew that I wouldn't, couldn't turn down a guy just because he doesn't have the preferred equipment. I feel so sad for those poor homosexuals who do everything they can to be straight, including getting married and raising a family. It's just one big lie. Wow, not one homophobe fundamentalist has responded in here after 3 days. What a shock. That's rather disappointing. I like to argue with stupid people. :]

[Scatterbrain]

So it has come to this, fascism finally hits DV. Why did whats-his-name's post and mine get deleted?

[Howie]

So it has come to this, fascism finally hits DV. Why did whats-his-name's post and mine get deleted? Your post was a direct reply to the off topic response. So wouldn't stand to reason a response to a deleted post would also be deleted?

[Scatterbrain]

The post I replied to was making an on-topic point with sarcasm. Besides, it wouldn't be spam either way, doesn't it make more sense to warn the user instead of deleting the post?

[Howie]

The post I replied to was making an on-topic point with sarcasm. Besides, it wouldn't be spam either way, doesn't it make more sense to warn the user instead of deleting the post? It would only make sense if we had 4000 Modereators to address all the off topic replies. I like stealing things and killing people. Just how i was born. ^^' If you're stealing from yourself and killing yourself and/or robbing people that want to be robbed or kill people that want to be killed, then there's no harm. I don't think it's normal for homosexuals to force people into homosexual relationships. You're confusing gay with rape perhaps? ^ ^ There is your "on topic point."

[Kael Seoras]

Dizko was making a point about how just because you're born a certian way, doesn't make it right...and Sctterbrain was countering it...at least as far as I can tell