A clearer explanation of salvation

[Noogah]

Okay listen you guys. Ive dared once more venture into this dangerous, and infamous section of dreamviews once more. It truly is a horrid place. Because no one wishes to lose a debate. You keep debating the snot out of each other, until something happens. The problem with debates is that no one ever actually changes their mind. Both theists, and atheists follow their beliefs with rigorous devotion. It actually strikes as amusing. I'm here to give a more thorough explanation of what I beleive salvation means. Too many times I hear Christians say something like "Jesus died to save us." Of course, this phrase has lost it's meaning. No one bothers to think deeply on it. So here, I will give my beliefs on the topic as clearly as I can. Read, or do not read. NO ONE PUT A GUN TO YOUR HEAD! If your gonna curse at me, gang up, or do whatever you will to make my life miserable, please, do everyone a favor and leave. If you should like to logically agree, or disagree with maturity, I welcome you. I am a creationist.(And with that, half the readers left the thread.)Today, creationist can mean a lot, so let me clarify. I believe that a God created the universe, the world, the people, the animals, and whatever else exists. I believe that the original Bible gives an accurate description of how everything came into being. I am also a Christian. I believe that the physical realm is not the only realm. I believe that the physical realm is only a temporal place that God made for humans to live. I also believe that due to the fact that every human has consciously done wrong, he has stained his spiritual mirror of himself(his soul). Due to this, when we die, our souls will be unworthy of a perfect, and unstained heaven. Quiet frankly, I believe that an impure soul will be punished. Not of hate, but because it is inevitable. I also believe that God is grieved with these consequences. But a judge doesn't always enjoy punishing his verdict, and God's son decided to provide a way out. He was not forced to do so, he chose to, and his father allowed it. I do not believe that outside of the physical realm their are any physical bodies. I believe that Jesus entered our 3rd dimensional realm, and entered a physical body. Imagine a 2d computer game. A good example would be Club Penguin We do not live in a two dimensional realm, but can "log in" to it with a user name, and password. I believe this is a good analogy of Jesus entering our world. During his life, he taught people many important things. Throughout the New Testament, Jesus told people spiritual morals (Now considered obvious today, but not then) and gave physical analogies for the people to better understand.(Parables) When he finished saying what he had to say, he had never committed a sin,(or spiritual wrong doing) and his soul was pure. He endured the physical torture of crucifixion. Not only that, but while doing so I believe that his soul took on all the sins of sinners to come. This torture is beyond belief on spiritual terms. Someone who had never felt a twinge of guilt suddenly felt all the guilt of the world combined in a few gruesome hours. Once it was finished, his physical body died. Where his soul went afterward has been speculated for a long long time. Three days later, he came back down, and took over his old physical body. He did this to fulfill a former prophecy, and to give the world one final warning before leaving again. Of course, he doesn't want to force anybody to do anything. Rather, it's more of an invitation. One can except, or not. A purified soul allows passage into heaven. We cannot achieve it ourselves, but Jesus did the cleaning for us. If of course one does except it, submission is perfectly reasonable. He asks for it, but knows that no one will not sin. It is simply beyond physical capacity. No matter what you do afterward, you are saved forever. So the reason many people say it's ridiculous is because it is. That is to say, it is in our physical world. But that's where many atheists are so narrow minded. Any good physicist will tell you that there are more dimensions besides the third dimension. Of course, all these dimensions are inside of the physical realm. But what about outside of the physical realm? Outside of the physical realm exists a spiritual realm. Here, the boundaries of time are non existent. Because of this, it is quite possible to experience "eternity" I believe that God sees all of the physical dimensions laid before. Including time. This is why what happens at the moment is not as important to him as it is to us. He will allow bad things to happen at the moment to prevent an ill effect in the future. Of course, sometimes it takes a long time to know what it was. Sometimes we never do! That does not mean that he doesn't care though. I hope this gives a better, and more realistic understanding of heaven to atheists, and Christians alike. EDIT: Gadzooks you people!!! Chill already! This thread was not made to counter evolution. It was only to give a clearer representation of salvation. ALRIGHT!?

[DrunkenArse]

Both theists, and atheists follow their beliefs with rigorous devotion. Nope. I am a creationist.(And with that, half the readers left the thread.) Today, creationist can mean a lot, so let me clarify. I believe that a God created the universe, the world, the people, the animals, and whatever else exists. I believe that the original Bible gives an accurate description of how everything came into being. No matter what you do afterward, you are saved forever. So I can go around raping 12 year olds? At least the buddhists tell me that I have to own up to my actions. That's funny, they have me take responsibility for my actions (Buddhists have hell too) and still reach nirvana one day, no matter what I do. So the reason many people say it's ridiculous is because it is. That is to say, it is in our physical world. But that's where many atheists are so narrow minded. Any good physicist will tell you that there are more dimensions besides the third dimension. Yes. Any good physicist will tell you that there are four dimensions. There might be 10 if string theory ever pans out. I, and a lot of good physicists, are dubious. I hope this gives a better, and more realistic understanding of heaven to atheists, and Christians alike. Creationism is bad theology. Ignorance is bad theology. You are not a very good theologian. Hate to break it to you.

[Universal Mind]

Okay Noogah, thank you for holding up a white flag of peace, at first. However, I don't appreciate you calling me narrow minded. I'll tell you what. I am going to open up my mind and try to understand the story of Christianity. Tell me if I have it right. If not, tell me where I have it wrong. Here's the story... An invisible superbeing, God, with neuroses and emotions such as jealousy and anger just HAPPENED to exist forever and ever. Then, he created a universe. The universe has billions and billions of galaxies, each with billions and billions of stars, and some of those stars have tiny planets going around them. On one of those tiny, tiny planets, God created millions of species of organisms. One of those millions of species, humans, became God's big obsession and became the source of much of God's rage and jealousy, even over the fact that many of them don't think he exists because he created them in such a way that they cannot perceive him or make sense of the idea of him, considering the fact that this story is the story of him. He made a bunch of rules for the humans, such as must not cut hair on sides, master must not beat slave such that slave dies less than two days later, must kill humans who work on Sunday, and must not kill humans. The capacity for humans to screw that up came from the fact that the very first human screwed it up by eating a fruit that God put near him and told him not to eat. That happened because God allowed one of his angel creations to turn against him and play snake. God allowed that angel to create an eternal torture chamber for humans who screw up the rules, even if they honestly believe God does not exist. Because God is loving, he decided to send himself in the form of his son to Earth to be tortured back to where he had been for eternity so he could change his own rules concerning eternal torture. The new rule became that you have to believe that further hard to believe part of this story to not go to the eternal torture chamber created by the angel God created. Going to the eternal torture chamber is a choice even if you don't think it exists and therefore could not possibly choose to go to it. As a result, most humans will go to the eternal torture chamber. God is loving and merciful. The end. Did I get it right?

[DrunkenArse]

God is loving and merciful. The end. Did I get it right? You might want to check with an expert (i.e. don't take my word for it), but I think you left out something about him being omnipotent and omniscient as well. Does that ring a bell?

[Unelias]

I hope this gives a better, and more realistic understanding of heaven to atheists, and Christians alike. No, my picture of Christian heaven hasn't improved in any way. I still see no reason why I wanted to be there or why people strive so hard to get in there. Jesus told people spiritual morals (Now considered obvious today, but not then) and gave physical analogies for the people to better understand.(Parables) I wouldn't say that Christian spiritual morals are nearly as obvious as you think. Maybe for you they are, but in the world in general they hardly matter anymore. If they do, that is because the fear of the punishment by law, not by the divine punisher. Also, from my experiences those analogies were the worst thing the Bible ever came up with. People just translate them into their own ends and according to their own beliefs. They are symbolic, they are meant to be guiding lines for general human life, at most. Not strict commandments. This is why most of the "Holy Books" suffer the same problems. They give fanatics too much altering choice. Result : Messed up world like ours. No matter what you do afterward, you are saved forever. This is, along the term of "sin", is the thing that bugs me most in Christianity. What could be a better bait to get a man submissive than promise that everything he has ever done, will be forgiven as long as he obeys and does what he is told? This is because people believe in odd concept called sin. Sin belongs into a same category as i.e during the time of Soviet Union there was a thing called counter-revolutionary activity which was and could be basically anything that didn't appease the Communism party. Even if you made bread and accidentally sold it to a wrong person you could be arrested as counter-revolutionare. Sounds awfully lot like a religion, don't you think? atheists follow their beliefs with rigorous devotion. I have to cling on that since I am a nihilist, which makes me an atheist too. I don't believe in anything, that requires faith. I know there are atheist who are eager to attack theists and other people wwith "rigorous devotion", but you are generalizing badly. To believe requires action, so it is active. Not to believe is passive, since it requires nothing. Therefore, you are being very rude and very wrong now, mister. He will allow bad things to happen at the moment to prevent an ill effect in the future. Of course, sometimes it takes a long time to know what it was. Sometimes we never do! That does not mean that he doesn't care though. If god is omnipotent, omnipresent, benelovent, kind, "good", loves us, cares for our souls, why there is such a conflict with all those words fitting into his profile? If he is omnipotent, good and loves us, why doesn't he just purify all of us now and take us to the heaven? Why doesn't he snap his finger and destroy hell and lucifer so there is no "evil" anymore? Why he allows those bad things ( according the very own book of his ) happen? To prevent an ill effect in the future? If he is omnipotent he doesn't need to play such a games. Because we aren't in heaven at the moment, that proofs that he cannot be all those adjectives together. He isn't either loving and good or then he really isn't omnipotent. Or my favorite, he doesn't exists at all, which really sounds most rational choice in this quizz. For how we see the world, he is fond of playing chaotical, mad games, enjoys plunging people against each other and loves destruction and havoc. Maybe he is just having fun with us before is reveals the hidden camera and says : "Ok guys, that was a good take, let's all go to heaven now for coffee and cake."

[Noogah]

Okay Noogah, thank you for holding up a white flag of peace, at first. However, I don't appreciate you calling me narrow minded. I'll tell you what. I am going to open up my mind and try to understand the story of Christianity. Tell me if I have it right. If not, tell me where I have it wrong. Here's the story... An invisible superbeing, God, with neuroses and emotions such as jealousy and anger just HAPPENED to exist forever and ever. Then, he created a universe. The universe has billions and billions of galaxies, each with billions and billions of stars, and some of those stars have tiny planets going around them. On one of those tiny, tiny planets, God created millions of species of organisms. One of those millions of species, humans, became God's big obsession and became the source of much of God's rage and jealousy, even over the fact that many of them don't think he exists because he created them in such a way that they cannot perceive him or make sense of the idea of him, considering the fact that this story is the story of him. He made a bunch of rules for the humans, such as must not cut hair on sides, master must not beat slave such that slave dies less than two days later, must kill humans who work on Sunday, and must not kill humans. The capacity for humans to screw that up came from the fact that the very first human screwed it up by eating a fruit that God put near him and told him not to eat. That happened because God allowed one of his angel creations to turn against him and play snake. God allowed that angel to create an eternal torture chamber for humans who screw up the rules, even if they honestly believe God does not exist. Because God is loving, he decided to send himself in the form of his son to Earth to be tortured back to where he had been for eternity so he could change his own rules concerning eternal torture. The new rule became that you have to believe that further hard to believe part of this story to not go to the eternal torture chamber created by the angel God created. Going to the eternal torture chamber is a choice even if you don't think it exists and therefore could not possibly choose to go to it. As a result, most humans will go to the eternal torture chamber. God is loving and merciful. The end. Did I get it right? No, you got it wrong. 1.I did not call you narrow minded. I said that it was a common narrow minded trait of atheists to say that the 3rd dimensional realm was the only existing realm of significance. 2.Jealousy is not a bad thing. There is a difference between jealousy and envy. 3.The rules you listed were guidelines in the old testament for Jews. Once the crucifixion was over, the rules were nulled. End of story. 4.God didn't just happen to choose a random planet. he had it planned out just like a modern day architect. Now allow to state your theory with the same bais that used on mine. Dirt and non specific space junk just HAPPENED to exist since the beginning of time. Then, it all clumped up into little speck of dust (it's impossible to clump an asteroid to the size of dust, much less the universe) Suddenly it blew up. Made planets, formed stars, yada yada. Now I know that's not your theory. But now do you see what happens when you misrepresent something under a bias?

[Noogah]

Nope. So I can go around raping 12 year olds? At least the buddhists tell me that I have to own up to my actions. That's funny, they have me take responsibility for my actions (Buddhists have hell too) and still reach nirvana one day, no matter what I do. Yes. Any good physicist will tell you that there are four dimensions. There might be 10 if string theory ever pans out. I, and a lot of good physicists, are dubious. Creationism is bad theology. Ignorance is bad theology. You are not a very good theologian. Hate to break it to you. I'll watch none of these video for the following reasons: 1.You think I have time to watch ten, ten minute videos? Honestly. 2.Post something that you actually made yourself. Mkay? 3.FOR CRYING OUT LOUD THIS THREAD WASN"T MADE TO DEBATE EVOLUTION ALRIGHT!?

[DrunkenArse]

No, you got it wrong. 1.I did not call you narrow minded. I said that it was a common narrow minded trait of atheists to say that the 3rd dimensional realm was the only existing realm of significance. It's pretty arrogant of you to say derogatory things without scientific evidence to back it up. At least when I say that creationists are stupid and/or ignorant, I have scientific evidence to back my claim up. Where is your scientific, non-faith based claim that there are dimensions beyond physical dimensions? Ain't it just like a creationist to bring a prayerbook to a debate. 2.Jealousy is not a bad thing. There is a difference between jealousy and envy. Right. Jealousy is what you call it when someone that you like is envious. 3.The rules you listed were guidelines in the old testament for Jews. Once the crucifixion was over, the rules were nulled. End of story. Don't I remember some drivel from that piece of shit book of yours about "I did not come to change the laws but to fulfill them"? And at any rate, it's not the end of the story. What the fuck is wrong with your god to say that jews should kill homosexuals and people that work on saturdays? Dirt and non specific space junk just HAPPENED to exist since the beginning of time. Then, it all clumped up into little speck of dust (it's impossible to clump an asteroid to the size of dust, much less the universe) Suddenly it blew up. Made planets, formed stars, yada yada. First off, UM colored his synopsis of your backwards beliefs but did not outright distort them. You know not what the fuck you are talking about. Get a fucking education before you go around spewing your uneducated trash in public. The larger something is, the easier it is to "clump it into the size of dust". Science hypothosizes that the universe "began" "clumped to the size of dust". Gravity at that intensity distorts time though. Everyone believes that something just HAPPENED to exist. That's unavoidable. It's telling that you chose that point to parody. Now I know that's not your theory. But now do you see what happens when you misrepresent something under a bias? That wasn't a misrepresentation. It was in factual error. I'll watch none of these video for the following reasons: 1.You think I have time to watch ten, ten minute videos? Honestly. That is typical creationist arithmetic. three of them approach ten minutes. Most of the rest of them are less then five. 2.Post something that you actually made yourself. Mkay? There was commentary I put in there that you chose to ignore. If I accept jesus, does that mean that I get to rape 12 year olds and go to heaven? 3.FOR CRYING OUT LOUD THIS THREAD WASN"T MADE TO DEBATE EVOLUTION ALRIGHT!? That's right, because there is no debate. So instead of giving you an intelligent answer, I decided to post a bunch of videos that ridicule your backwards beliefs. If you want to stew your brain in ignorance, that's your right but don't expect to just be able to spew that ignorant shit out in public and not have people stomp it into the ground. Even your notion of 'salvation' is primitive and backwards. Check the thread "love" if you want to see somebody that has the prerequisite insights speculate about 'salvation'. Like I said in my first post; your views fail on scientific grounds and theological grounds. I wish that I could find within myself the compassion to not despise you people but I have a feeling that even jesus and buddha would both have wanted to pimp-smack some sense into you. I don't speak or claim to speak for them though.

[fzongqvxp]

Kudos from a devout creationist. These things needed to be clarified. To me evolution is no more accurate than the world being on the back of a turtle. And the two theories were created for the same reason. Psalm 2:1-4 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his annointed, saying Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. However, i believe you cannot convince someone to become a christian through logic. It really is a matter of blindness and sight. The unsaved cannot see the things God does on a daily basis, therefore they cannot appreciate the fullness of life that comes with conversion. When the time is right God will reveal himself through whatever means is necessary.

[Universal Mind]

You might want to check with an expert (i.e. don't take my word for it), but I think you left out something about him being omnipotent and omniscient as well. Does that ring a bell? Yeah, I did leave that out, huh? How could I do that? I have posted that story on other sites, and the omnipotence has always been one of the first things I bring up. I'm getting sloppy. Omnipotence is usually the first thing I go for when I express skepticism toward Christianity. The idea that somebody infinitely powerful had himself tortured is one of the biggest WTF concepts in all of religion. The idea that somebody is infinitely powerful yet has no choice but to let evil and suffering exist is about as logical as 2 + 2 = 11. Of course, he doesn't want to force anybody to do anything. Rather, it's more of an invitation. One can except, or not. A purified soul allows passage into heaven. We cannot achieve it ourselves, but Jesus did the cleaning for us. If of course one does except it, submission is perfectly reasonable. He asks for it, but knows that no one will not sin. It is simply beyond physical capacity. No matter what you do afterward, you are saved forever. So the reason many people say it's ridiculous is because it is. That is to say, it is in our physical world. But that's where many atheists are so narrow minded. I think the concept is "ridiculous" in any possible dimension or realm, and I believe there are dimensions beyond the third in this very universe, which is part of a multiverse, which is part of a system of existence far beyond our comprehension. I don't think what you brought up is ridiculous because I'm narrow minded. It's because I logically don't believe that laws of logic are warped in other dimensions and realities. They are part of the most basic fabric of reality itself. However, my mind is open to other arguments. When I satirize Christianity, I am not attacking you personally. This is a religion forum, and you brought up something that I in all honesty think is an illogical concept that has way too much power in the world and has had way too much power for about 2000 years. I have things to say about it. I am not being hostile toward you on a personal level. I only discuss this stuff with willing participants. If I ran into you as a stranger on the street, I wouldn't start an argument with you over this. I am going to come across as a smart ass in this thread, but I am not trying to hurt you with it. I am expressing my major disbelief over the religion I used to be such a part of. 2.Jealousy is not a bad thing. There is a difference between jealousy and envy. Why would somebody/thing infinitely powerful need it? Why did he have the capacity for it for eternity before creating the universe? There was nothing to be jealous of, and there is supposed to be nothing God cannot do. Isn't the idea of him having a tendency toward jealousy pretty ridiculous? 3.The rules you listed were guidelines in the old testament for Jews. Once the crucifixion was over, the rules were nulled. End of story. The rules in the Old Testament were just guidelines? The Ten Commandments were/are really the Ten Suggestions? As for the post-torture-himself era, isn't there a verse where Jesus said he did not come to change the Old Testament laws? I thought the idea was that he only came here to add a new way for good people to be tortured for eternity and for rapists and murderers to avoid it. 4.God didn't just happen to choose a random planet. he had it planned out just like a modern day architect. I didn't say he chose a random planet. Is that it? I got the other stuff right? I am particularly concerned with the having himself tortured back to where he had already been for eternity part. Now allow to state your theory with the same bais that used on mine. Dirt and non specific space junk just HAPPENED to exist since the beginning of time. Then, it all clumped up into little speck of dust (it's impossible to clump an asteroid to the size of dust, much less the universe) Suddenly it blew up. Made planets, formed stars, yada yada. No, I don't believe anything just happens to be. There is a cause for absolutely everything, but cause does not have to be an object or event in a time sequence. Metaphysical basis qualifies as cause. I can't explain the full story of how the univese came to be, but I am not going to resort to a self-contradicting ghost tale. I will give explaining the universe my best shot, but don't ask me to bet on the truth of it... Nonexistence is not a "thing" because it does not exist, yet it is the basis of existence, that which defines what nonexistence is not. (Languages gives the impression that nonexistence qualifies as a thing, but it is not.) At the very fabric of that relationship is the basis of the laws of metaphysics, which are at the roots of the laws of physics. One of the results of that fabric is a system of existence that contains mulitiverses in which universes are created through the laws of physics. Now I know that's not your theory. But now do you see what happens when you misrepresent something under a bias? I asked you to discuss with me where my representation is wrong. Please say more about it.

[Unelias]

Oh boy, this turns out to be very fascinating thread, methinks. Let see how it evolves. I am really looking forward for the logical and rational explanation from Noogah.

[Noogah]

Okay first off, this thread was not made for debating. I courteously ask that after I make a response to this, that you continue the debate no longer. However, if you should like to do so via PM, you're very welcome. Just keep in mind that I don't have a whole lot of time to spend on such things, so please be considerate. "The idea that somebody infinitely powerful had himself tortured is one of the biggest WTF concepts in all of religion. The idea that somebody is infinitely powerful yet has no choice but to let evil and suffering exist is about as logical as 2 + 2 = 11." Evil and suffering is a concept that has always existed. In the first chapter of Genesis, God made it clear that He has the knowledge of "good and evil." Thus, God's angels had the knowledge of good and evil too, and Satan chose evil. Those who follow Satan are evil, too. God is not going to force His angels or His creation to follow Him. He wants to give us a choice. He was infinite and then put himself into a finite body. He got tortured. If that is beyond your logical comprehension, I honestly feel great sympathy towards you. " It's because I logically don't believe that laws of logic are warped in other dimensions and realities." You may believe what you wish. In reality, universes outside of ours may very well have different laws of nature. Than again, maybe not. You can't prove it either way, and I'm not saying that I can. I was just offering my beliefs on salvation. "I am going to come across as a smart *** in this thread, but I am not trying to hurt you with it. I am expressing my major disbelief over the religion I used to be such a part of." Thank you. I will try to exercise the same respect. " Isn't the idea of him having a tendency toward jealousy pretty ridiculous?" Again, there is a difference between jealousy and envy. Jealousy is motivated out of love, envy is motivated from hate. God being jealous of His people simply means He will not allow other people to harm His own because He loves them. There is nothing ridiculous about that. Remember that infinity does not necessarily mean infinite amounts of time. At least, not in a realm that does not exist. Listen, I don't care what you believe. You can believe we live in a simulation, you can believe we are an accident, you can even believe we were created. The fact remains the same. Somewhere along the line, something existed in the beginning without plausible origin. God existed. God answered to no one, thus, he had no purpose. I guess maybe you could say he felt bored. Although, I think this is an extremely limited way of describing how he felt on human emotions. God, being able to do anything, chose to create company. Angels, humans, animals, and...uh...plants. One of the angels rebelled, and was cast from heaven. That angel then started turning humans from God. God was reasonably jealous of his own creation when they rebelled against him, and ate of the forbidden fruit. I really don't think that infinity without origins is as ridiculous as we think. But, after humanity has been around for thousands of years (in your book, millions) things have not simply been. They have come, and gone. Nothing ever just was, and still is, except for earth(An obvious exception) Due to this fact, we feel that everything in our dimension or not, must have a beginning. Of course, what lies outside of this universe is beyond our comprehension, so I won't even speculate how it worked. But like it or not, you believe something was infinite. "Is that it? I got the other stuff right? I am particularly concerned with the having himself tortured back to where he had already been for eternity part." Pft. No. I hardly even read your other baloney in the description. Once I got to that part, I basically decided that your bias is to strong for me to deal with. "The rules in the Old Testament were just guidelines? The Ten Commandments were/are really the Ten Suggestions?" No. Those were basic morals applying to humanity as a whole, and Jesus made specific reference to them while on earth. "As for the post-torture-himself era, isn't there a verse where Jesus said he did not come to change the Old Testament laws? I thought the idea was that he only came here to add a new way for good people to be tortured for eternity and for rapists and murderers to avoid it. " Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. The NT era deals with the spirit of the law, and not just the laws themselves. Every sentence you make, you take another step up the bias ladder. The Old Testament upheld punishment and justice - not torture. If we had the same standards today as we did back then, the Casey Anthony case would have never happened. Many of the Old testament Laws were made as a way to "book salvation" when Jesus died. Also, many of them were specifically made for the Jews alone. Some of the rules still apply, others don't. It only takes a little common sense to figure out which ones. "but I am not going to resort to a self-contradicting ghost tale" Me neither. "Nonexistence is not a "thing" because it does not exist, yet it is the basis of existence, that which defines what nonexistence is not." Epic man! Epic! Seriously no sarcasm, that was cool. I might put that in my signature. In the latter of what you said, it sounds great, but in no wise contradicts Creationism. "I asked you to discuss with me where my representation is wrong. Please say more about it." Very well. "One of those millions of species, humans, became God's big obsession" I shouldn't have to explain this. They didn't "become" his "obsession" We are the only part of his creation made in his "image" His primary creation. God created us for His pleasure, and He gave man dominion over the rest of His creatures. "and became the source of much of God's rage and jealousy" His rage was over sin. He was jealous of our choice. "or make sense of the idea of him" I don't know about that, Mate. Finite beings, of course, will never fully be able to understand an Infinite God, and nor does God want us to. He gave us the information about Himself that He wanted us to know. (He is holy, just, pure, mighty, powerful, etc...) I don't fully understand him, but what I know of him is adequate for my following of him. You might try reading the Bible. It's a good book, really! "master must not beat slave such that slave dies less than two days later, must kill humans who work on Sunday, and must not kill humans." Before you start trying to debate the books of the law, try actually reading them rather then paraphrasing or quoting another biased atheist. The books of the law are chalk full of justice and good rules. You are simply pulling out the most extreme, and warping them to your liking. He didn't say to kill people who work on the Sabbath. He allows killing so long as it is justified. I.E punishment. "the very first human messed it up by eating a fruit that God put near him and told him not to eat" Yeah they messed up, but they didn't have to. He let them. You act as though humans don;t have the capacity to obey God. I'm afraid your mistaken. The reason God created the tree in the first place was to give Adam and Eve the choice to obey Him. He wanted them to obey out of love, not force. "God allowed that angel to create an eternal torture chamber for humans" 1.God created that chamber. 2.It was for Satan, and rebelling angels, not for us. "he decided to send himself in the form of his son to Earth to be tortured back to where he had been for eternity so he could change his own rules concerning eternal torture" Hell was not God's plan for humans to begin with. It was created for Satan, and people who follow Satan end up there. Such are the laws of spirituality. Is it really that hard to understand? "The new rule became that you have to believe that further hard to believe part of this story to not go to the eternal torture chamber created by the angel God created" That is not the rule. The rule is that you put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, giving your life to Him. "and therefore could not possibly choose to go to it" The choice is not between Heaven and Hell. The choice is between God and Satan. And for atheists who claim to follow neither, they are ultimately following Satan, because Satan is the god of this world. ...And if you live for this temporal earth, you do not get to live an eternal life. You must live for the eternal in order to live eternally. Again, this makes sense. You choose who you live for. Plus, no one forced you to believe in them, or not. That is also your choice. "God is loving and merciful. The end." Never said a truer word mate. In conclusion, I don't know what kind of Church you attended, or what kind of bible you read. Your understanding of the scriptures is minimal, and/or warped. Please do not respond. You are welcome to PM me, but the purpose of this thread is not for debate. Thank you.

[Universal Mind]

Nope, sorry. You can't post something like that and not get a response. I am not going to respond line by line, but I will counter your entire post with a few sentences. You, like every theist I ever debate on religion, do not get what infinite power is. God has rules he has to work within? Then, he is not infinitely powerful. For example, if God is infinitely powerful, he did not have to pull the bizarre stunt of getting himself tortured. Who made the rule that things work that way any way? (That counters about 80% of what you said.) Belief is not a choice. If it is, believe that you are a rock star for five minutes and then tell me what it was like. Will you do that for me? My post was biased? If you mean my opinion was presented throughout it, then yes. For that matter, your posts have been biased too. What's the problem? Humans did supposedly become God's obsession when he created them. Do you claim humans have always existed? You cannot choose to go to Hell if you don't think it exists. You cannot choose to follow Satan if you think he does not exist. Nobody deserves to be tortured for eternity. The rest of what you said was just reiteration of exactly what I was saying. In other words, you were pretty much saying, "Yes, that's what happened. But here's why..." Tell me more about what an infinitely powerful being is unable to do.

[Noogah]

If you will not comply, I have no intentions of reading your post. I gave you the option of responding via PM. If you wish to do so, you are free.

[Noogah]

Oh boy, this turns out to be very fascinating thread, methinks. Let see how it evolves. I am really looking forward for the logical and rational explanation from Noogah. I'm sorry, I don't have the time right now. I can't a reply. But if you get one, it will via pm. Okay?

[Universal Mind]

If you should like to logically agree, or disagree with maturity, I welcome you. Did your roommate post that under your account?

[DrunkenArse]

nah, he just realized that he doesn't have a logical leg to stand on and would get torn a new asshole in any debate. He wants to keep it in PM so that impressionable children that might be reading this don't realize what a crock of shit creationism is. It's really typical creationist bullshit. He says he's too busy and then offers to have the same debate with two people via PMs as opposed to once on the board. LMAO.

[Universal Mind]

nah, he just realized that he doesn't have a logical leg to stand on and would get torn a new asshole in any debate. He wants to keep it in PM so that impressionable children that might be reading this don't realize what a crock of shit creationism is. It's really typical creationist bullshit. He says he's too busy and then offers to have the same debate with two people via PMs as opposed to once on the board. LMAO. What's hilarious is that we have had a long series of creationists who end up "too busy" to reply. Most of them talk about how they will get back to us after they take care of all of their business, but they never do. A lot of them have the pattern of giving evasive responses at first and then just disappearing, and then they come back months later and act like they don't remember the questions they dodged.

[Allotropy]

Yo, atheists (or whatever you call yourselves): you're not providing a whole lot of support for your own arguments when you go dissing someone who clearly stated several times that this thread was intended to only express their own views, not to debate. If you're so thirsty for Creationalist blood, it would be better for your reputation to seek it elsewhere.

[Universal Mind]

Yo, atheists (or whatever you call yourselves): you're not providing a whole lot of support for your own arguments when you go dissing someone who clearly stated several times that this thread was intended to only express their own views, not to debate. If you're so thirsty for Creationalist blood, it would be better for your reputation to seek it elsewhere. Yo, dawg, yo... He invited us to disagree and then told us he would not respond to us in this thread. That brought up similar stories. Yo, word.

[Noogah]

Did your roommate post that under your account? No, I meant it. You can debate my explanation of salvation. Not creationism itself. This is getting off topic, which is why I ask you to pm me if you want to debate other stuff.

[Noogah]

What's hilarious is that we have had a long series of creationists who end up "too busy" to reply. Most of them talk about how they will get back to us after they take care of all of their business, but they never do. A lot of them have the pattern of giving evasive responses at first and then just disappearing, and then they come back months later and act like they don't remember the questions they dodged. Be assured. That will not be my case. If I intend to leave, I'll you know that. I have nothing to be ashamed of. Fact is, debating people like you is a waste time. No offense, it's just that no one is going their mind. They will only get more irritated. I try to debate mostly open minded and courteous atheists.

[DrunkenArse]

No, I meant it. You can debate my explanation of salvation. Not creationism itself. This is getting off topic, which is why I ask you to pm me if you want to debate other stuff. Your explanation of salvation is based on a flawed interpretation of the world. You actually implied that you think that the human species is only thousands of years old. What do you know about humans and hence salvation? nothing. If you want to debate you version of salvation without debating creationism, you're confused. Your version of salvation rests on a literal interpretation of the bible so you need to defend that if you want to debate your version of salvation. You also said that you think that creationists have made good points. Name one! People that accept science and evolution in particular are very open minded. It's you creationist fools that cling to that piece of shit book like it's the word of god that are close minded. Again, name one good point that a creationist has ever made at any time concerning evolution. In a feeble attempt to appear open minded, you said that there are good points for evolution. name one as well.

[Universal Mind]

No, I meant it. You can debate my explanation of salvation. Not creationism itself. This is getting off topic, which is why I ask you to pm me if you want to debate other stuff. I brought up the overall story of Christianity to put the salvation part into perspective. It was relevant. The crucifixion never had to happen if God created the rules. Be assured. That will not be my case. If I intend to leave, I'll you know that. I have nothing to be ashamed of. Fact is, debating people like you is a waste time. No offense, it's just that no one is going their mind. They will only get more irritated. I try to debate mostly open minded and courteous atheists. I am trying to understand your perspective, but you are not doing the same with mine. My mind is much more open than yours in this discussion. You keep using excuses to run away from me, and I am not buying them. We can both learn a lot by doing this. That is one of my goals in doing this. It is not to change your mind. I have no plans whatsoever of doing that. I just want to better understand the conceptual foundation of the world's most powerful religion... and have a good debate. This stuff doesn't irritate me any more than playing Nintendo with somebody. It's like a video game. I never walk away from my computer bent out of shape because of a debate I had. I love this stuff. If you would look at it as an educational video game too, you will be able to enjoy this more and get more out of it.

[Noogah]

I brought up the overall story of Christianity to put the salvation part into perspective. It was relevant. The crucifixion never had to happen if God created the rules. I am trying to understand your perspective, but you are not doing the same with mine. My mind is much more open than yours in this discussion. You keep using excuses to run away from me, and I am not buying them. We can both learn a lot by doing this. That is one of my goals in doing this. It is not to change your mind. I have no plans whatsoever of doing that. I just want to better understand the conceptual foundation of the world's most powerful religion... and have a good debate. This stuff doesn't irritate me any more than playing Nintendo with somebody. It's like a video game. I never walk away from my computer bent out of shape because of a debate I had. I love this stuff. If you would look at it as an educational video game too, you will be able to enjoy this more and get more out of it. I dont run away, and I don't make excuses. I ignore certain things, and give reasons. Beleieve me, or don't. Either way, I don't care. I know exactly what you mean by refreshed. In fact, I regurarily debate a certain atheist. Long debates! But if any were to ask, I consider us pals. Know why? He doesn't fight me, or attack me personally. His debates are consistent of scientific fact, or opinion. Never personal attacks. I sometimes feel refreshed after debating these rare types, or atheists who don't know anything about what they believe. You have it easy! I keep my personal refernce to you very minimal. I have two different people demanding my attention on this thread aloe. Much less the forums, an much less my life! Here, I am attacked from all angles by everybody. If I dare to mock you, I am rediculed by everyone. Any poor stray creationist wandering into this thread is instantly attacked, and devoured as well. For this reason, I truly don't have a lot of time to spend on each of you individually, and would prefer pm. An atheist like you doesn't understand why it's like to have the populus turned against you. I apologize if this came out as a pitty party. I just have to let you know this as powerfully as possible. Atheists have a strange habit of cooperating much better via pm. (Cooperating as in not calling me stupid, not calling my Bible four letter words, not trampling stamping stretching bashing me and basically treating me like scum of the earth) When I have ten nosy atheists all gathered together waiting to barge in on everybody else debate, it gets to be alot if work. For these reasons, I prefer world view debate via pm.