What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

^^ Overall that looks like an excellent attempt, Sydney, you are indeed getting close! There were a few small things, though:

- Yes, definitely work on solidifying your waking-life self-awareness during WBTB; there can never be too much of that!

- I suggest you work on patience, which is also a key element of WILD. 20 minutes is not a long time for a WILD attempt, and you probably were almost there. If you can, try not to be concerned about time at all, but if you do look at a clock and see only 20 minutes have passed, then get right back to work.

- It is okay to move a little; your WILD is not over because you moved.

- Try to avoid ever feeling that like nothing is going to happen, as that is almost a guarantee that nothing will happen.

- If you think you are in a FA, then take a moment and do a reality check because you never know if you might be dreaming.

Otherwise, nice work, Sydney; good luck with your next dive!

Reporting in...

I have not tried WILDing today because i had something to do in the morning.
However, after reading some detailed tutorials on WILD i found out the exact reason why i can easily WILD by accident, but not by intention..

As simple as this sounds, it flew by my head; how important this is.. I'm pretty sure it was stated by sageous somewhere else before, but it only hit me when i read it written like this:

"I am about to plainly state this secret for what it is: the thing that the people that can WILD do, but that those that can't don't.
You must NOT think about the fact that your WILDing when you're WILDing" - Billybob

And this clears up why my first WILD attempt that i used my custom anchor in succeeded to an extent; that is because my anchor involved silencing my mind from thoughts.. the thoughts of doing the technique itself. And now if i look back on my accidentals, it makes sense..

With this, alongside the rest of the guide that was written.. I have an understanding on why i have been failing at WILD all this time. I kept stressing out about how long it would take and if i'm doing it right or not, right during the technique itself.

Now that this is out of the way, and the natural-awakening-WBTB is out of the way. Only one more thing is left: to do it. The only thing left is to put what i know to the test. Despite being on this WILD practice for almost 2 months, now i feel like i have what i need to pull it off. The concept is making sense now.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Overall that looks like an excellent attempt, Sydney, you are indeed getting close! There were a few small things, though:

- Yes, definitely work on solidifying your waking-life self-awareness during WBTB; there can never be too much of that!

- I suggest you work on patience, which is also a key element of WILD. 20 minutes is not a long time for a WILD attempt, and you probably were almost there. If you can, try not to be concerned about time at all, but if you do look at a clock and see only 20 minutes have passed, then get right back to work.

- It is okay to move a little; your WILD is not over because you moved.

- Try to avoid ever feeling that like nothing is going to happen, as that is almost a guarantee that nothing will happen.

- If you think you are in a FA, then take a moment and do a reality check because you never know if you might be dreaming.

Otherwise, nice work, Sydney; good luck with your next dive!

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Thank you so much for the advice!

Sageous, just one more thing I'd like to know.. what are some good things to do during a WBTB to make oneself aware for the attempt, but not wake them up too much? I feel like I'm not doing enough in that department.

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Originally Posted by TDHXIII

Now that this is out of the way, and the natural-awakening-WBTB is out of the way. Only one more thing is left: to do it. The only thing left is to put what i know to the test. Despite being on this WILD practice for almost 2 months, now i feel like i have what i need to pull it off. The concept is making sense now.

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That's awesome! Good luck on your attempt! ^^

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Originally Posted by Sydney

That's awesome! Good luck on your attempt! ^^

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Thanks. I doubt it would go smoothly tonight because my sleep schedule is all over the place right now. But if i do manage to wake up naturally and notice it, then i have a high chance of succeeding at WILD.

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Originally Posted by Sydney

Sageous, just one more thing I'd like to know.. what are some good things to do during a WBTB to make oneself aware for the attempt, but not wake them up too much? I feel like I'm not doing enough in that department.

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I think the best thing to do is nothing, except quietly think dreamy thoughts. Here are a few suggestions, in no particular order, of things you might consider trying (one at a time, of course; don't jam them all into one WBTB or you will wake up fully for sure!):

- Try to remember any dreams you had before you woke up, and if you do remember them, try to picture them in your mind, maybe think about what you were doing in them and wonder if they meant anything. Don't worry about actually interpreting them, and don't worry about it if you cannot remember anything, wracking your brain to find meaning or lost dreams will wake you up too much for sure!

- Think about your plans for the dream that will come with your upcoming WILD. Run through your dream goals, maybe imagining what you will be doing when they are fulfilled (i.e., imagine yourself waterbending: how you'll do it, maybe the setting, etc -- I don't recommend watching Katara do it on TV, though that might be tempting).

- Try doing that post-RC exercise where you look around and imagine that you are in a dream.

- Read from your dream journal, either by opening to a random dream or picking out one of your favorites.

- Just wander your house (or walk outside) without a thought or concern: let your body do its thing, but keep your mind as peaceful as you can, thinking only about your upcoming dream or perhaps how different the light is in the early morning.

- If you are into meditation, WBTB is an excellent time to do it.


As long as I'm here, these are some things I think you should not do:

- use your phone, computer, iPad, etc.
- start a conversation with someone.
- plan your day.
- Worry... about anything, including your WILD attempt.
- stay in bed.
- exercise heavily (walking is fine, but avoid running, stretching, working out, etc).

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Originally Posted by Sageous

I think the best thing to do is nothing, except quietly think dreamy thoughts. Here are a few suggestions, in no particular order, of things you might consider trying (one at a time, of course; don't jam them all into one WBTB or you will wake up fully for sure!):

- Try to remember any dreams you had before you woke up, and if you do remember them, try to picture them in your mind, maybe think about what you were doing in them and wonder if they meant anything. Don't worry about actually interpreting them, and don't worry about it if you cannot remember anything, wracking your brain to find meaning or lost dreams will wake you up too much for sure!

- Think about your plans for the dream that will come with your upcoming WILD. Run through your dream goals, maybe imagining what you will be doing when they are fulfilled (i.e., imagine yourself waterbending: how you'll do it, maybe the setting, etc -- I don't recommend watching Katara do it on TV, though that might be tempting).

- Try doing that post-RC exercise where you look around and imagine that you are in a dream.

- Read from your dream journal, either by opening to a random dream or picking out one of your favorites.

- Just wander your house (or walk outside) without a thought or concern: let your body do its thing, but keep your mind as peaceful as you can, thinking only about your upcoming dream or perhaps how different the light is in the early morning.

- If you are into meditation, WBTB is an excellent time to do it.


As long as I'm here, these are some things I think you should not do:

- use your phone, computer, iPad, etc.
- start a conversation with someone.
- plan your day.
- Worry... about anything, including your WILD attempt.
- stay in bed.
- exercise heavily (walking is fine, but avoid running, stretching, working out, etc).

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Those sound awesome! I've never heard of just doing that during a WBTB; I always thought you had to do a lot in order to wake up. Maybe that's just me. But I'm definitely trying one of these tonight, Sageous. Thanks!

Oh, and by the way, last night's attempt went much, much better than the previous night's! I stayed aware the whole time (which was an hour, I usually get up for the day at 6 AM), and I never fell asleep once! My mind did wander off for a couple minutes at a time, but I was able to remember I was WILDing and bring it back.
And I knowww you're not supposed to get hung up on the noise, but.. I did experience some very mild vibrations, about 40-45 minutes in (that's just how long it felt like to me), but I think by trying to make myself not focus on them I actually focused on them even more, making them disappear entirely. Nothing was really happening (I wasn't thinking that, I'm just saying, everything was calm), so I just kind of layed there and thought about what I would do in the upcoming LD, making sure that I didn't slip into a daydream. But then, my alarm rang..

I'm just glad I'm making some progress! I see the vibrations as a milestone in a way, but I'm going to try not to focus on them. But then again, I get so excited when I get them.. XD

Practical work is right up ahead!

So far i just need to practice a relaxation method for a week or so before trying it out with an attempt. I'm going with something similar to the 61-point method.

I can see it.. It's close.

Also, i got into the state of accidental REM Atonia today.

I woke up normally to test out my WILD at 10:30PM then afterwards stayed fully awake until about 1PM or 2PM doing some non-ld stuff. Then i was watching some relaxing videos on youtube because i felt kinda sleepy, so i was doing it sitting and putting my head on a small pillow on the desk in front of me. This made me extremely sleepy though.

After a while i decided to close the PC and go to sleep for a nap. And here i felt tired and i was trying to go to sleep unconsciously, but for a reason i don't know my awareness just couldn't go away. I never went unconscious despite going all-out.

I stayed there trying to sleep until i opened my eyes slightly only to notice being in REM Atonia due to having seen some stuff in my room for an instant before i closed my eyes back. I also experienced loud buzzing sounds and a feeling of someone breathing on my face. To be honest this is no more scary to me, it's more annoying than scary at this frequency of it happening. I'm grateful though.

I waited for a little bit hoping to end up "in a dream" and nothing happened, ultimately making me annoyed so i broke out from REM Atonia.

Other times i remember this happening:
* After studying up late for a finals exam then going to sleep with the intent of going to sleep quickly and unconsciously
* Some afternoon naps
* Some times when i came from school after an exam and proceeded to sleep, there i felt my body dragging itself to sleep
* Some times when i layed down on my back without an intention to sleep, only for my body to fall asleep later

So is there a clue as to why this is happening? And i'm still not sure whether this state was a dream or not, because it could have been one.

^^ Once again, you are not going to like my response, TDHXIII:

Respectfully, I am pretty sure that there is no state of "auto SP."

I'm actually far more than "pretty sure," because that knowledge is based on much more than personal opinion. For one, if you were to experience actual SP (auto or not), you would do so upon waking up, and not upon falling asleep. Also, you cannot "break out" of SP, period; they do not call it Sleep Paralysis for nothing... indeed, if you ever want to prove to yourself that you are in SP some morning when you might awaken ahead of your body, just make an effort to move: in actual SP, you cannot move in any way, so your effort to move, or break out, will fail.

What you are experiencing is probably some onset of perfectly normal REM Atonia as your body goes to sleep. Everything you described above sounds very much like HI, and, once again, you really would do well to ignore it and stay focused on your upcoming dream.


A couple other things as well:

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I waited for a little bit hoping to end up "in a dream" and nothing happened, ultimately making me annoyed so i broke out from that "SP" state.

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You perhaps should have waited a bit longer, because if REM atonia is noticeable, then you were indeed on the threshold to your dream. Next time, instead of waiting, pass the time by focusing on your dream, or perhaps moving right into it yourself: for instance, if you sense that your body is asleep (that REM Atonia or "SP state" sensation) try "rolling out of it" with your dream body.

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Other times i remember this happening:
* After studying up late for a finals exam then going to sleep with the intent of going to sleep quickly and unconsciously
* Some afternoon naps
* Some times when i came from school after an exam and proceeded to sleep, there i felt my body dragging itself to paralysis
* Some times when i layed down on my back without an intention to sleep, only for my body to fall asleep later

---

All these things seem to represent times when your body might be inclined toward getting to sleep a bit faster than your mind, so you could indeed be noticing REM Atonia, or at least extreme relaxation, because your mind is still active while your body sets about sleeping (that's a fine time to WILD, BTW). Once again, your body is not dragging itself into paralysis, it is settling into sleep, and sending you signals that it needs some rest. And yes, if you lay down in a relaxed state long enough, you will fall asleep, even if you never intended to do so.


I know my point of view about SP, though based on experience (both mine and many others) and scientific knowledge, is not very popular here, but I hope you will take a minute to listen to me,. Placing concepts like "auto SP" in your path only hurts your chance to WILD, even if you think otherwise. The popular SP myth, in my opinion, has created an artificial barrier to LD'ing, and not a bridge to it, so I will continue to suggest that people do what they can to ignore the on-line hype and choose to understand that all those sensations they feel on the way to sleep are things that happen every time your body goes to sleep, only this time you are there to witness them. Let REM Atonia and all that HI join the ranks of noise to be ignored rather than goals to be achieved, and your WILD's will be easier to achieve and much, much more common.

Bed around 9pm probably sleep around 10 - after sitting for a while then repeating the mantra " when I see my hands I realise I am dreaming"'while I look gently at my hands ( I just started this very recently but will try to keep it up for a month now )

Woke around 1pm as per usual recorded dream and repeated " I am dreaming now - I know I am dreaming now - I know I am dreaming now" And " When I see my hands I will know I am dreaming "

Woke up about 4am and stayed up for wbtb for about 40 mins sitting in a chair pondering last dream opened window and felt the breeze for a bit. Layed down for the wild ;
Wild attempt lasted about 1 and a half-hours. I felt I got very close a Couple of times again ( a few times like this this week )realy relaxed body getting sleepy calm and mellow then with strong vibes and worm hole experience ( mile stones )but couldn't hold on again and did not transition to dream...Not sure if it is the connection to the mantra just not strong enough or if when making the change between being a kind of passive observer to being actually within the dream...- I may need some help with this transition as I feel for some reason I am not making it - maybe that's just coz it takes time and I need patience :) - you mentioned something about rolling over in your dream body, when is a time to try that? And where is ones focus...? It's maybe the case I should focus more on the dream goals around this time so that I REALY invision myself in the dream?

Anyway rolled over after this and a few dreamlets and someone telling me my name was Fire Dragon :alien:





"

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Once again, you are not going to like my response, TDHXIII:

Respectfully, I am pretty sure that there is no state of "auto SP."

I'm actually far more than "pretty sure," because that knowledge is based on much more than personal opinion. For one, if you were to experience actual SP (auto or not), you would do so upon waking up, and not upon falling asleep. Also, you cannot "break out" of SP, period; they do not call it Sleep Paralysis for nothing... indeed, if you ever want to prove to yourself that you are in SP some morning when you might awaken ahead of your body, just make an effort to move: in actual SP, you cannot move in any way, so your effort to move, or break out, will fail.

What you are experiencing is probably some onset of perfectly normal REM Atonia as your body goes to sleep. Everything you described above sounds very much like HI, and, once again, you really would do well to ignore it and stay focused on your upcoming dream.


A couple other things as well:

You perhaps should have waited a bit longer, because if REM atonia is noticeable, then you were indeed on the threshold to your dream. Next time, instead of waiting, pass the time by focusing on your dream, or perhaps moving right into it yourself: for instance, if you sense that your body is asleep (that REM Atonia or "SP state" sensation) try "rolling out of it" with your dream body.



All these things seem to represent times when your body might be inclined toward getting to sleep a bit faster than your mind, so you could indeed be noticing REM Atonia, or at least extreme relaxation, because your mind is still active while your body sets about sleeping (that's a fine time to WILD, BTW). Once again, your body is not dragging itself into paralysis, it is settling into sleep, and sending you signals that it needs some rest. And yes, if you lay down in a relaxed state long enough, you will fall asleep, even if you never intended to do so.


I know my point of view about SP, though based on experience (both mine and many others) and scientific knowledge, is not very popular here, but I hope you will take a minute to listen to me,. Placing concepts like "auto SP" in your path only hurts your chance to WILD, even if you think otherwise. The popular SP myth, in my opinion, has created an artificial barrier to LD'ing, and not a bridge to it, so I will continue to suggest that people do what they can to ignore the on-line hype and choose to understand that all those sensations they feel on the way to sleep are things that happen every time your body goes to sleep, only this time you are there to witness them. Let REM Atonia and all that HI join the ranks of noise to be ignored rather than goals to be achieved, and your WILD's will be easier to achieve and much, much more common.

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Thanks for the reply Sageous.

The reason i said "SP" like this is because i was trying to refer to REM Atonia instead, perhaps i should stop doing that from now on. Also, i'm starting to realize just how effective relaxation is for WILDs.

As for what looks like me ignoring what you tell me multiple times, i'm not really intending to. I just accidentally type my post in a way that conveys otherwise, but i really do understand that SP is not the same as REM atonia..

Other than those few misunderstanding here and there. I really feel close to WILDing right now. And as we discussed the need to have skill aswell as conditions for a WILD, i'm going to practice relaxation methods and see for myself. As they are probably the most important step that i've been ignoring for all this time. I no longer have any fear for HI, so it's safe to say that i don't really care about them too much right now. I only get a bit excited because they are like a milestone that means i'm through the hard part of the technique.

After observing all those times when my body fell asleep and my mind didn't. I'm fairly confident that relaxing properly is the last piece to put for success. I remember laying on my back countless times and just laying there, just liking the relaxed feeling. Which resulted in my body falling asleep into REM Atonia. For what its worth, i will be trying out normal meditation or the 61-point relaxation technique. Once one of them proves successful, i'll be off to the real deal of using said technique on my WILD attempts.

And for the waiting part, i kind of regret not trying the roll-over method. Next time i get into that state, or maybe when my WILD succeeds soon!

Seems like a good attempt, Patience, but -- other than time, practice, and, yes indeedy, patience -- there might still be one or two small things you might consider:

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Originally Posted by Patience108

Bed around 9pm probably sleep around 10 - after sitting for a while then repeating the mantra " when I see my hands I realise I am dreaming"'while I look gently at my hands ( I just started this very recently but will try to keep it up for a month now )

Woke around 1pm as per usual recorded dream and repeated " I am dreaming now - I know I am dreaming now - I know I am dreaming now" And " When I see my hands I will know I am dreaming "

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You might consider setting aside that "when I see my hands I realize I am dreaming" mantra. Aside from being in the future tense, which is a mantra no-no (always use present tense, or else your dreaming mind won't get the hint and simply have you non-lucidly planning to see your hands), a statement like this is more of an intention to be set than a mantra to be repeated... something that you should be repeating during the day or right at bedtime in a MILD sort of way. Positive, here & now statements like "I know I am dreaming now" are generally much more effective, I think.

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... couldn't hold on again and did not transition to dream...Not sure if it is the connection to the mantra just not strong enough or if when making the change between being a kind of passive observer to being actually within the dream...- I may need some help with this transition as I feel for some reason I am not making it - maybe that's just coz it takes time and I need patience :) -

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Patience is key, Patience (sorry, I just like saying that!:)), but you might also try to never be a passive observer of your own WILD dive, because that only makes the dream a bit more unattainable.

Ignoring the noise does not mean being passive to everything, or being passive at all. Your WILD will go much better if you are actively involved in it, if you are fully aware that all this stuff going on -- including your body falling asleep, the noise, your mantra, those pesky stray thoughts, your goals, the transition itself, FA's, etc -- all this stuff is You, and everything you encounter, nurture, or succeed in ignoring is an integral, functional aspect of your mind and body. The better you can keep things non-dual (don't observe, but "be"), the more connected you will be to the process come transition time: the transition to dream should simply be a feeling of "Oh, here I am in my dream," than one of wondering if this is the part where my mind shows me the beginning of the dream. Once you have that "this is all me" mindset, you will know that the transition is nothing more than your body shifting gears to sleep (and hopefully REM) while you are remaining, simply, consciously constant. So, when it is just another rung on the WILD ladder, what is there about the transition (or any other part of a WILD) that must be anticipated or observed anyway?

In a nutshell, if you can avoid thinking of your WILD as a thing that is happening to you, as an event you are observing, and instead see it as the thing you are doing (all of you: mind, body, and spirit) to remain self-aware while you fall asleep, you might find that the transition becomes an obvious thing that ought to happen anyway rather than an important event that you must anticipate, observe, "make it to," and ultimately be impressed by.

I'm not sure if this makes sense, and it probably seems to contradict other things I've said, but it is something worth considering.

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you mentioned something about rolling over in your dream body, when is a time to try that?

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The best response to that is also extremely unhelpful and self-referential: you will know when it is time to try rolling your dream body into your dream because it will be time to try.

The second best response is this: at some point, probably -- but not necessarily -- after things like HI and dreamlets pass, by your best judgement you will be pretty sure you have fallen asleep or are very close (a judgement that is, BTW, the result of practice and patience); you might even be in -- and know you are in -- a simple dream, like a FA in your bedroom. At that point you will know that the only body you can move now is your dream body. So, knowing that, rolling your dream body off the bed ind into your dream-world will be a no-brainer. By contrast, if you try to roll into your dream before that point, you will likely move your physical body and wake up (hopefully not on the floor!)

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And where is ones focus...? It's maybe the case I should focus more on the dream goals around this time so that I REALY invasion myself in the dream?

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Your focus should always be on the dream, at any point of the WILD. So, since your dream goals should be on the front burner when the dream begins, there should be no need to go to them. That said, if you did happen to set your goals aside, the rolling into the dream moment is definitely the time to make them a priority so that you can head your adventure in a specific direction before your dreaming mind just grabs a schema to fill the scene. That said, I'm not sure what you mean by "invasion myself in the dream," but you hopefully at this point understand that you are not moving from observer to participant, and know you were always participating, so there is no need to invade anything (because you are already there).

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Anyway rolled over after this and a few dreamlets and someone telling me my name was Fire Dragon

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That's a shame, because you were probably moments from sleep and the dream. Next time, right?

I'm new to this forum but I've been interested in lucid dreaming for 4-5 years, though I go long periods of time without practicing or experimenting with new methods, so excuse me if I ask some newbie questions. I just recently got back into lucid dreaming because I have more time to try it out. I've never gotten even remotely successful with WILD so I normally stick to WBTB combined with MILD, and this works fairly well for me. However, I was really hoping to gain a better grasp on how to WILD and the best way to achieve it. I have never experienced sleep paralysis before or any of the other phenomenon associated with WILDing. I'm fairly efficient at relaxing quickly; however, when I do feel fairly relaxed and like I'm on the right track, I start to feel an extremely noticeable swaying motion like I'm moving back and forth repeatedly. This is the only phenomenon I have ever experienced with WILDing and it only lasts about 10 seconds before subsiding. It seems to make me alert to the point that I have to start over again and then it happens again next time I'm relaxed. For instance, I just attempted a WILD in the afternoon a couple of hours ago, and this sensation happened three separate times, 10 minutes apart, and kept me from having any success. Is this common? Is the swaying a good sign or is it unrelated to WILD? If it is a good phenomenon, how do I prolong the swaying and keep from fully waking up again? Thanks for your help!

^^ Welcome to DreamViews, Cayman!

Though I'm sure you will have no trouble finding plenty of info on this site to help you on your quest to develop your WILD skills, I do recommend that you run through the WILD course to which this thread is attached; I think it will help. If you don't have time, DV's also has an excellent tutorial on the subject, and a little browsing will bring you to many other interesting WILD threads and tutorials. In the meantime, here are a couple of thoughts:

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Originally Posted by Cayman

I have never experienced sleep paralysis before or any of the other phenomenon associated with WILDing.

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That's fine because, despite what you've no doubt read, sleep paralysis (SP) does not matter.

Indeed, actual SP has pretty much nothing to do with WILD at all. This is because SP is extremely rare, and when it does occur, it happens when you are waking up, and not when you are falling asleep. So don't worry about experiencing it, because it is not a requirement for successful WILD's. The sensation that dreamers feel when they think they've "reached SP" is nothing more than deep relaxation or REM Atonia. REM Atonia is a natural function of your body, meant to keep it from physically acting out the things you are dreaming. But even these things that do happen are simply the things your body goes through every time you go to sleep; you just happen to be there to witness them during a WILD dive. If you are curious, here are a couple of excellent threads on the subject

Sleep Paralysis Demystified

Sleep Paralysis Explained

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I'm fairly efficient at relaxing quickly; however, when I do feel fairly relaxed and like I'm on the right track, I start to feel an extremely noticeable swaying motion like I'm moving back and forth repeatedly. This is the only phenomenon I have ever experienced with WILDing and it only lasts about 10 seconds before subsiding. It seems to make me alert to the point that I have to start over again and then it happens again next time I'm relaxed. For instance, I just attempted a WILD in the afternoon a couple of hours ago, and this sensation happened three separate times, 10 minutes apart, and kept me from having any success. Is this common? Is the swaying a good sign or is it unrelated to WILD? If it is a good phenomenon, how do I prolong the swaying and keep from fully waking up again?

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It's good you can relax, but keep in mind that you need to do a bit more than relax and hold still when attempting a WILD.

That swaying you experience is probably just some hypnagogic imagery (HI), and really is little more than the noise you experience on the way to your dream. The best way to keep it from fully waking you up is to simply ignore it, or perhaps give it no more thought than a quiet acknowledgement that you are on your way to sleep, and to your dream.

I hope these short answers helped. Regardless, I wish you the best of luck in your quest to WILD, and look forward to seeing you around the forums!

It's been a while since I did a dedicated WBTB for practicing WILD, but I was lucky enough to have one spontaneously today!
I needed to get out of bed to let my dogs outside, and I returned to bed shortly after.
I remember lying in bed for a while, and the next thing I knew, I was in my parents' back yard, looking at a childhood photo of myself. I think there was a brief loss of consciousness, but I became aware that my location had suddenly changed and knew I had entered a dream. I slowly moved to interact with the dream world, and my senses became more vivid as I did.
It was a nice, stable dream, aside from some issues with dream control.

Thanks Sageous :) The tips on Mantra are apreciated too - for my Mild practice a mantra like -
i see my hands and i know i am dreaming - would be better then.


Patience is key, Patience (sorry, I just like saying that!:)), but you might also try to never be a passive observer of your own WILD dive, because that only makes the dream a bit more unattainable.

Ignoring the noise does not mean being passive to everything, or being passive at all. Your WILD will go much better if you are actively involved in it, if you are fully aware that all this stuff going on -- including your body falling asleep, the noise, your mantra, those pesky stray thoughts, your goals, the transition itself, FA's, etc -- all this stuff is You, and everything you encounter, nurture, or succeed in ignoring is an integral, functional aspect of your mind and body. The better you can keep things non-dual (don't observe, but "be"), the more connected you will be to the process come transition time: the transition to dream should simply be a feeling of "Oh, here I am in my dream," than one of wondering if this is the part where my mind shows me the beginning of the dream. Once you have that "this is all me" mindset, you will know that the transition is nothing more than your body shifting gears to sleep (and hopefully REM) while you are remaining, simply, consciously constant. So, when it is just another rung on the WILD ladder, what is there about the transition (or any other part of a WILD) that must be anticipated or observed anyway?

Thank you! These words ring very true and I really do see where you are coming from - its such a strong powerful mindset to cultivate! So being fully aware that stuffs going on and its all part of me as I am part of it :sleepmeditate2: I am sure with patience :wink:it will be a wild - any-day now!

In a nutshell, if you can avoid thinking of your WILD as a thing that is happening to you, as an event you are observing, and instead see it as the thing you are doing (all of you: mind, body, and spirit) to remain self-aware while you fall asleep, you might find that the transition becomes an obvious thing that ought to happen anyway rather than an important event that you must anticipate, observe, "make it to," and ultimately be impressed by.

I'm not sure if this makes sense, and it probably seems to contradict other things I've said, but it is something worth considering.

[I] am concidering this as its Top Notch advise - the penny will drop soon i know it!


You focus should always be on the dream, at any point of the WILD. So, since your dream goals should be on the front burner when the dream begins, there should be no need to go to them. That said, if you did happen to set your goals aside, the rolling into the dream moment is definitely the time to make them a priority so that you can head your adventure in a specific direction before your dreaming mind just grabs a schema to fill the scene. That said, I'm not sure what you mean by "invasion myself in the dream," but you hopefully at this point understand that you are not moving from observer to participant, and know you were always participating, so there is no need to invade anything (because you are already there).

Yes - getting it now . [Invasion was a typo - invision was what i meant ...but it comes to same thing - The " whole " is the focus i need to have right - a good mantra for this could be possibly ;

"Be - the dreamer and the dream "



That's a shame, because you were probably moments from sleep and the dream. Next time, right?[/QUOTE]

YES :)

Those last nights, I' am more in the "Pure WILD" stuff than the "Device assisted DEILD".
I manage to make my WBTB happen later and later in the morning, and to avoid the to early WBTB.

The last night I tried, I slept for about 7 hours, I woke up naturally, went to the toilets, my WBTB lasted about 5 minutes.
The room where I was (in my girlfriend's house) was full of the Day light, so I tried to keep my eyes close when I could.
Toilet are in the first floor, thus I had to go down the stairs then to go back up them.

The bright light and the physical activity (stairway) are the two only "bad" thing I must have to deal with.
I remained seated a few moments on the bed, then I lie on the back.
Using my mantra each time I inhale, I observe how my mind going and coming back, I observe the HI if it happens, I try not to move, but scratch when I need to, until the position and above all the "need" to move my legs and arms makes me feel too uncomfortable, then I lie on my right side.

at this moment, when I am on my side, I am very close to sleep, it's as the new position (by my side) let the pressure (from to the discomfort) disappear, making me falling asleep faster, BUT it seems that I need a stronger Anchor cause from this moment, I fall asleep very quickly without being able to maintain my awareness, my mantra is not strong enough to let me go further.

I have to find what to do at this moment to keep my awareness few more seconds ( maybe some maths or something)

I could also get the WBTB a little bit longer than this 5 minuts, but I don't want to delay my sleep onset too much as I can't stay at my back much longer.

5 hours later, WBTB
I got my mantra worked out.. "I know this world is all in my mind"
I'm Plenty relaxed.
Too damn relaxed.
I keep falling right to sleep. I get one or two mantras out and then I'm gone. How do i fix this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tblanco

5 hours later, WBTB
I got my mantra worked out.. "I know this world is all in my mind"
I'm Plenty relaxed.
Too damn relaxed.
I keep falling right to sleep. I get one or two mantras out and then I'm gone. How do i fix this?

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Your WBTB might be too short for you to stay aware.

TDHXIII is probably correct, Tblanco.

From your report, it seems that you may not be allowing yourself the necessary "up" time to generate enough wakefulness to get you through your WILD (which is what WBTB is meant to do, BTW). You might consider adding to your "up" time during your WBTB... it will take some experimenting to find your personal balance between too sleepy and too awake, but 30 minutes is usually a good time period wiith which to begin.

Ah, now this is where I start getting discouraged...

I just feel like I need to be able to WILD with very minimal time staying up, and I think that's discouraging me. Because, I know for a fact that if I only stay up for a mere 5 minutes, that I will almost always immediately fall back to sleep. And if I stay up for 30, I'm able to stay awake for a long time but I still don't think I'm aware enough.
I also feel like it should only take 15 - 30 minutes to enter a dream. And yes, I guess that can be true, but for me, I reach an hour and I still haven't transitioned. And that's even after I've let my mind wander so much.

I'm sorry, that was mainly a rant, but it still bugs me. I know everyone is different.

Well, I guess I'll just run through last night's attempt real quick:

I got up after 6 hours of sleep (which, as I've been tracking, is 30 minutes before full REM happens the next time). I stayed up for 30 minutes, thinking about my previous dream (using one of your WBTB techniques, Sageous ^^). I then got back in bed, quickly ran over my dream goals, and layed down. I lay on my back, hands at my sides. I, then, instead of what I've been doing (just focusing on my breathing and repeating my mantra), started counting on every breath and repeating "I'm dreaming." I got to about the thirties, and then immediately started losing track of the number. So I kept coming back after my mind wandered, and tried to resume on what I thought I had left on. This kept happening over and over and over. So I eventually started over, and was still only able to make it to the early numbers (20s, I think) and lost track again. I know that it's good if your mind wanders, but the numbers were supposed to help me keep aware.
It had felt like an hour, where I had drifted in and out of my mind wanderings. I really don't like myself for this, but I rolled over and decided to start again. I thought I would be able to "refresh" my focus, but as it normally goes, I fell asleep before I even hit the number 10.

What do you think? Tonight, I'm upping my stay up time to 35 minutes, and doing two of what-you-should-do-during-WBTB things that you mentioned, Sageous.
Do you think changing when you wake up for WBTB matters? (I know you need to be in or before a REM period, though) If you wake up earlier, will you be more tired, or later, will you be more awake? I feel like always changing around my WBTB time has some effect as to why I'm not reaching the dream.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sydney

Ah, now this is where I start getting discouraged...

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Then this is also the time when you should walk away from discouragement... discouragement only makes all this more difficult. Try to see things like finding your best stay up time as a challenge, and not a new (or, worse, perpetual) problem. That said:

Quote:

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I just feel like I need to be able to WILD with very minimal time staying up, and I think that's discouraging me. Because, I know for a fact that if I only stay up for a mere 5 minutes, that I will almost always immediately fall back to sleep. And if I stay up for 30, I'm able to stay awake for a long time but I still don't think I'm aware enough.
I also feel like it should only take 15 - 30 minutes to enter a dream. And yes, I guess that can be true, but for me, I reach an hour and I still haven't transitioned. And that's even after I've let my mind wander so much.

---

Keep in mind, Sydney, that the goal in WILD is to fall asleep while still self-aware, and not just to fall asleep as quickly as possible. Yes, it is nice to be able to fall asleep quickly, and very tempting to go there, but if you simply fall asleep normally because you hadn't gathered enough waking-life self-awareness during your WBTB, your WILD is likely doomed. For what it's worth, I personally tend to take an hour or so to fall back to sleep, and sometimes much more. Perhaps coincidentally, some of my best LD's have come after taking a very long time to fall back to sleep; I've often wondered if that was because my mind was fully awake, and I merely out-waited my body, which finally gave up and let itself fall asleep (which, BTW, is why it is so important to remain reasonably still for as long as possible; In WILD, your body needs to assume you should be sleeping, regardless of what your mind is doing).

If you are taking a long time to fall asleep, you are probably more aware than you might think, since awareness tends to fuel wakefulness. Also, you shouldn't think too much about whether you are self-aware or not during your dive; just stick to your mantra and maintain a steady focus on the upcoming dream. Too much thought about your state will lead to too much wakefulness, and it will likely become a real distraction.

I highly recommend that you try not to think about how long your dive is taking, ever. If you find yourself still wide awake after, say, 1.5 hours, then it is time to give it up for the day. Before that much time passes, just say focused and look forward to your dream as if it were going to start in the next few minutes (thinking otherwise only makes it take longer to arrive).

So: There is no "standard" for how long it takes to enter your dream. If you can, try to discard that feeling that it "should only take 15 - 30 minutes to enter a dream," because such a feeling will make things more frustrating as time passes, present another distraction, and is simply not the case. Entry into the dream takes as long as it takes for every individual, regardless of ideal times.


And:

Quote:

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... I, then, instead of what I've been doing (just focusing on my breathing and repeating my mantra), started counting on every breath and repeating "I'm dreaming." I got to about the thirties, and then immediately started losing track of the number. So I kept coming back after my mind wandered, and tried to resume on what I thought I had left on. This kept happening over and over and over. So I eventually started over, and was still only able to make it to the early numbers (20s, I think) and lost track again.

---

I know it's become very popular, but I'm not sure that counting is the best route to take with WILD. The struggle to maintain your count tends to be a bit too effective in keeping you awake, and tends to become a distraction as your focus shifts to keeping the numbers coming and in order. I would suggest that, unless you are using counting as a relaxation technique before your WILD, that you consider refraining from doing any counting during your WILD; just stick to your mantra, and you will be fine (you might just get to sleep more quickly, too!).

Quote:

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I know that it's good if your mind wanders, but the numbers were supposed to help me keep aware.

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I'm not sure where you learned this -- hopefully not from me -- but it really is not a good thing for your mind to wander. Yes, a little mental wandering is inevitable during WILD, but it is always important to pull yourself back and stay in focus.

Yes (and again), repeating numbers during the WILD might keep you more aware, but doing so does not necessarily keep you aware of your goal of a successful WILD; just of the numbers themselves. The awareness you might enjoy with counting is not only not helpful to your WILD process, but may be forming a new distraction separating you from the dream, and drawing you towards physical wakefulness rather than helping you away from it.

Quote:

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It had felt like an hour, where I had drifted in and out of my mind wanderings. I really don't like myself for this, but I rolled over and decided to start again. I thought I would be able to "refresh" my focus, but as it normally goes, I fell asleep before I even hit the number 10.

---

Next time you decide to start again, I suggest you get up out of bed for a moment, and then lay back down in your original WILD posture. No matter what you might be telling yourself intellectually as you do it, when you just roll over you are succumbing to the "rollover urge," or your body's wish to just go to sleep without any waking-life awareness. So it was not a surprise to me that you fell asleep immediately, and it will happen again... maintaining self-awareness after succumbing to the rollover urge is extremely difficult. Next time try to remember this before you roll over.

Quote:

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What do you think? Tonight, I'm upping my stay up time to 35 minutes, and doing two of what-you-should-do-during-WBTB things that you mentioned, Sageous.

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That sounds good; and be sure to be willing to continue the experiment by raising or lowering the up time a little bit with each dive until you find just the right amount.

Quote:

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Do you think changing when you wake up for WBTB matters? (I know you need to be in or before a REM period, though) If you wake up earlier, will you be more tired, or later, will you be more awake? I feel like always changing around my WBTB time has some effect as to why I'm not reaching the dream.

---

I think that if you are waking up after 5 hrs' sleep (or more), you are likely in a good ballpark for WILD. So, since you are already there, there is likely no need to mess with it.

Also, one reason we do WBTB, especially after so many hours' sleep, is because you want to be more awake than you are earlier in the night; this reason may be as important as the other main one, which is more easily catching a REM period.

I hope all this helped, and that you will avoid getting discouraged, Sydney. By your accounts, you are closer to WILD than you've ever been, and you might only need to be just a bit more patient to finally get there; so try not to let the extra time get you down!

Sageous, your amazing reply brought on a new surge of motivation! ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Then this is also the time when you should walk away from discouragement... discouragement only makes all this more difficult. Try to see things like finding your best stay up time as a challenge, and not a new (or, worse, perpetual) problem.

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This definitely changed my perspective. I'm veryyyy bad about seeing things that I have trouble with as "problems" I have to get around or over, but seeing it as a challenge really motivates me. Alrighty, I'm on it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

If you are taking a long time to fall asleep, you are probably more aware than you might think, since awareness tends to fuel wakefulness. Also, you shouldn't think too much about whether you are self-aware or not during your dive; just stick to your mantra and maintain a steady focus on the upcoming dream. Too much thought about your state will lead to too much wakefulness, and it will likely become a real distraction.

---

I guess I have always thought that if I keep too much attention on my mantra that I would never fall asleep. So I always ended up thinking about something else, or letting my mind wander, while also focusing on my mantra, and now I can see why I used to fall asleep so quickly during my WILDs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

So: There is no "standard" for how long it takes to enter your dream. If you can, try to discard that feeling that it "should only take 15 - 30 minutes to enter a dream," because such a feeling will make things more frustrating as time passes, present another distraction, and is simply not the case. Entry into the dream takes as long as it takes for every individual, regardless of ideal times.

---

I guess I've been comparing myself to others. I do that with other things too, and that is just simply not a healthy habit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

I know it's become very popular, but I'm not sure that counting is the best route to take with WILD. The struggle to maintain your count tends to be a bit too effective in keeping you awake, and tends to become a distraction as your focus shifts to keeping the numbers coming and in order. I would suggest that, unless you are using counting as a relaxation technique before your WILD, that you consider refraining from doing any counting during your WILD; just stick to your mantra, and you will be fine (you might just get to sleep more quickly, too!).

---

Okay, awesome! Yeah, I remember now why I don't use the counting techniques anymore..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sageous

I'm not sure where you learned this -- hopefully not from me -- but it really is not a good thing for your mind to wander. Yes, a little mental wandering is inevitable during WILD, but it is always important to pull yourself back and stay in focus.

Yes (and again), repeating numbers during the WILD might keep you more aware, but doing so does not necessarily keep you aware of your goal of a successful WILD; just of the numbers themselves. The awareness you might enjoy with counting is not only not helpful to your WILD process, but may be forming a new distraction separating you from the dream, and drawing you towards physical wakefulness rather than helping you away from it.

---

That is really good to know, because I've always treated it like a good thing. I guess I thought it was good because a lot of WILD guides and even a WILD technique in a book I read always mentions something about "catching" yourself after your mind wanders, and that being a good way to enter a WILD, so I just always let it happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Next time you decide to start again, I suggest you get up out of bed for a moment, and then lay back down in your original WILD posture. No matter what you might be telling yourself intellectually as you do it, when you just roll over you are succumbing to the "rollover urge," or your body's wish to just go to sleep without any waking-life awareness. So it was not a surprise to me that you fell asleep immediately, and it will happen again... maintaining self-awareness after succumbing to the rollover urge is extremely difficult. Next time try to remember this before you roll over.

I think that if you are waking up after 5 hrs' sleep (or more), you are likely in a good ballpark for WILD. So, since you are already there, there is likely no need to mess with it.

Also, one reason we do WBTB, especially after so many hours' sleep, is because you want to be more awake than you are earlier in the night; this reason may be as important as the other main one, which is more easily catching a REM period.

I hope all this helped, and that you will avoid getting discouraged, Sydney. By your accounts, you are closer to WILD than you've ever been, and you might only need to be just a bit more patient to finally get there; so try not to let the extra time get you down!

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Thank you for the advice! I never knew why that always happened to me... but I will remember that.

Thank you so much Sageous!

I think this is the final part of my ever-lasting struggle to WILD.

I just need to perform a relaxation process that involves clearing my mind from thoughts. This is probably the last thing i need to do before i can piece together a WILD. I might try going for it with today's attempt, or separate it and try to succeed at it before using it during an actual attempt. Either way, it's only a matter of time now.

^^ Almaost there; good luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Almaost there; good luck!

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I will not stop at this point. Today i will try to pull of the mind clearing process and see if i can get good at it before trying it out on the spot. If i can do that, then it's over and i'm ready to WILD.