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Thank you! I've been scared to try proper WBTBs because I'm always worried I'll become too awake, since even often if I stay in bed after waking in the middle of the night I struggle to fall back asleep. I should definitely try though. Thanks for all your help and also for making the comprehensive tutorial :D
It seems here is the place to write about WILD, so here I go. Many years ago WILD was my best technique for inducing a LD , but now because of my sleeping patterns I rarely can do it. This morning I tried a lot of procedures and finally succeeded, but that success maybe is only temporarily. I did wbtb, then laid on my back and count to 50 in order to collect my focus, while trying not to move too much. I must say that most of the time I'm reaching only to this point and give up. This time I tried visualization, but it didn't work. Then I tried my own version of FILD, again didn't work, only made me more focused. My body felt kind of heavy and numb, but not in SP, but I'm too awake to fall asleep while keeping my mind awake, but I refused to give up, I scrolled in my mind through OBE exit techniques and decided to just try to fall asleep while simulating soul pull, after a minute I felt a strong pulling sensation, which was somehow scary, it is like the bad was trying to suck me in, this time I decided to go with the flow without resisting, I end up directly in the dream. Next time I will try to refine the procedure somehow.
^^ Though I certainly welcome any accounts of WILD attempts, this thread is actually part of the DV Academy WILD course, and, in spite of your obvious experience, I suggest you take a look at it, sort of as a refresher course... you might just find a thing or to that will help you with those refinements!
I think I already read those an year ago, are there any new information, I don't want to reread it again?
^^ I don't keep track of who has read the course and when. By your post I had assumed you had not taken the course. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Good luck
Don't worry, just found bunch of useful new tricks on a Russian web site and will experiment with them.;)
I wanna ask.
I want to try WILD but im nervous, i move around a lot and get uncomfortable easy, do i have to stay still?
^^ You should stay still, but occasionally shifting positions is better than going nuts struggling to stay still. Though lying on your back is the most desirable position for a WILD (because it generally takes a bit longer to fall asleep in that position, giving you a little more time on the fence between wake and sleep to better manage your WILD transition -- it's meant, in other words to be a little uncomfortable), if you find yourself unable to stay on your back at all, then pick a position that is more tolerable. Then do your best to hold that position without fretting about it.
In other words, if you need to move during a WILD, then move. The real thing you're supposed to hold steady during a WILD is your focus and your waking-life self-awareness. If you can maintain that stuff while occasionally moving, then you will still have a chance to success. However, if you become distracted by discomfort because you're struggling to remain still, you will surely fail at your WILD attempt. Calm focus is much more important than holding perfectly still.
Trying the April competition to get in the groove of practicing all the lucid dreaming techniques more actively and focusing on lucid dreaming (rather than dreaming), I figured the results were lacking, haha. I’m thinking I won’t just rely on the competition and instead come to the academy part of DV.
I have been revisiting some of your classes since they’ve begun. For example, I have been practicing the reverse reality checks when it crosses my mind. Yet, I’ve always struggled to clearly understand them.
Now, as I’m reading about the Major Arcana of tarot and meditating over their significance, I think I’ve seen an analogy between RRCs and The Priestess. She comes second after The Magician (which we could say symbolizes pure action among other things). In a way, he represents intent, the part of our soul that is characterized by will and can affect action. This can be practiced by effortless concentration. Now, The Priestess represents the reflection over the pure action of The Magician. In this way, she is self-aware. She remembers. She understands where the action is coming from and where it is going. All of this reminds me of the RRC (wonder, self-awareness, memory, reflection). Eventually, the Priestess also represents the writing of all this down, for example. So, it made me realize, isn’t dream journaling, for example, a practice of RRC if it’s an activity of remembering, of reflecting on your experience, and the dynamics that play between yourself and your environment. In a way, remembering dreams and journaling is about starting your day with an RRC and practicing self-awareness.
Now, background on my past WILD attempts.
I have tried WILD in naps and it’s never worked for me. I find it hard to fall asleep, especially if I am “alert” or “mindful.” Yet, doing the April competition, I gave it a shot again and I do have more time for it. So, I wanted to formally attend this course (because, well, succeeding at a WILD would be really cool and even my DILD count is low so I need to give it more discipline). What I took out from my most recent reading of the course is a reminder about DEILD. I think I always assume I am waking up, meanwhile, there’s probably still an opportunity for continuing dreaming. Here are three attempts from this past week to act as a primer for my future attempts this week.
1. I attempted a WILD during a nap (alarm after 1 hour not to waste time), I lay on my back and wait. I try to pay attention only to my breathing and sense of self. At some intervals, I do pay some attention on my body and imagine heaviness as I breath in and let it go as I breathe out, eventually just paying my attention on breathing and self (my witness). It takes a while to fall asleep, so I also imagine myself moving up a staircase at some point. I must fall asleep around then (but not without losing consciousness, because I am then going down a staircase mindlessly and suddenly my legs stop working and I crash to the ground. The impact wakes me up, I can still feel the vivid sensation and I am too awake to try again. 30 min mark I think.
2. Repeat of the previous attempt another day. At some point and this is very common when I attempt this, I suddenly feel weightlessness, a bit as if I am floating. I know this is just noise, a milestone and try to continue my ritual unphased. Yet, the experience is quite intense. I feel overwhelmed by it and my alertness rises. Although I think this is a milestone, it’s always my downfall because once the wave passes, I feel more awake and my body doesn’t want to sleep anymore? This time, I got a phone call which interrupted any further exploration.
3. WBTB attempt. I just went to the bathroom and drank water. I’m scared to do anything more than that in case it wakes me up too much. I lose consciousness but have a DILD later instead. It later ends abruptly and I make no further effort (though I eventually dream again).
Concerning the homework: (I'm just checking them to make sure I read the whole course and participated on my side).
RRC, check.
Timing, I drink before I go to bed (not much, just normally), so I wake up naturally to go pee some time around 6 hours after going to bed, maybe a bit less. I’ve never risked staying awake longer than the time to pee and drink. But this week, I’ll meditate 10 minutes also. Check.
Noise, yeah, I give it no importance although I am struggling with increased mindfulness after an intense wave of ‘sensations/lack of sensations’, check.
Forming the dream, check.
Mantra, check. Funnily enough my mantra this week is “I am dreaming.” My mantra changes often, depending on what resonates with me and this is the first week I use this mantra. I came upon it from thinking questions (ex. Am I dreaming?) were probably useful for me during the day and during a dream because they increase cognitive faculties (I suspect), meanwhile, while falling asleep, I am trying to decrease my faculties whilst keeping awareness of “I” and my intention “dreaming” so it felt appropriate this week during my WBTB attempts. My previous mantra for a while was “Memory of dream (dream recall), memory in dream (memory access during dream), Memory of dream, Memory in dream” but my mind struggles to ‘feel’ it as I fall asleep, just changing it to “memory of the dream, memory in the dream” helped.
Using my yet not very refined AFILD, after wbtb. It takes only 1 minute to reach WILD, it felt interesting, began with vibrations, then a floating sensation and continue with acceleration, suddenly it is like I have been catapulted directly into the scene. First I stabilize the dream by rubbing my hands and then start counting (my own) to activate parts of my brain and continue with my goal, to summon a smart DC. I have no idea why to my mind come that name, but oh well it was fun. I start yelling at my all might " Neo-Merlin, Neo-Merlin come out, I'm here". Suddenly I saw something flying in the distance, a magician on a flying broom, he stop at front of the window and to enter he broke one of them. This is first time I see a magician with my eyes^^, when I was calling him I didn't have any image in mind. He was old with pointy hat and long blue robe, his grey beard was reaching his knees. "Yo I was waiting for you to call me", I smiled and in the next 8 minute we talked about personal stuff. That was one interesting encounter.
Interesting things happened today, in one or two days I will create a thread about it, as soon as I gain access to deep dreamers, I hope you hop in ^^
On other hand I got four clean WILDs(only a minute for entry,O_o) for two days, it's partially connected to that, but there is something else too :chuckle:
Have you tried PM Spellbee, OpheliaBlue, or Gab about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by michael79
Should I do this, I thought it is automatically?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lang
On other hand the day before yesterday have five more lucid dreams and today one WILD and six DEILDs, this was my best for entire month until now:armflap: Finally spoken with my unconscious mind, for the first time I breached the barrier. I could chained more than six deilds but my alarm was ringing like crazy.
Question? Did you try joining the Permission Groups? Deep Dreamers Here: https://www.dreamviews.com/profile.p...editusergroupsQuote:
Originally Posted by michael79
If you did and you haven't heard back from a staffer then I would PM one of them. ;)
Yes I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lang
Good to know, thanks:-)Quote:
If you did and you haven't heard back from a staffer then I would PM one of them. ;)
After 5 hours of sleep, I read EWOLD for 10 minutes, before going to bed and repeating my Mantra, 'float'. During the WBTB while I was reading, I felt incredibly tired but stayed up for my predetermined 10 minutes before lying back down. At no point during WBTB did I ever feel alert or awake, but within a minute of lying down, I became incredibly restless and alert. After around 20 minutes I opted to drift off, hoping for a DILD. I'm not very familiar with waking up in the dead of sleep, so did I trigger some stress response or what happened?
I'm sure time will tell if this is a consistent happening, but as I'm planning on adjusting the length of my WBTB, every so often. I was also wondering if this kind of result is indicative I should opt for a longer or shorter WBTB session.
^^That seemed overall a good attempt, PlatoPuss. Here are a couple of thoughts, though:
First, just in case something causes you to stay awake or become restless early on, it is a very good idea to continue your WILD effort for as long as possible before giving up. This period could last an hour or more (I've "waited" 90 minutes or more many times before completing a successful WILD), but if you can maintain focus and calm that extra wait might be worth it. Also, the extra time might help settle your mind back into the sleepy/dreamy place you desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatoPuss
Regarding what made you restless and alert after lying down, I got nothin'. Okay, I never have nothing: It could be anything from unconscious excitement about your WILD attempt to some leftover caveman-era defense mechanism that keeps you from falling asleep instantly right next to a waiting lion, with a world of items in between, including that you may have "finished" your WBTB wake-up after you lay back down, leaving you more awake than you were when you were up (and then you start thinking about being more awake, and then it all falls apart from there...) . But regardless of the reason, the best thing to do is to calmly wait it out without giving it too much thought; if your WBTB went well, you will eventually settle back into your sleep cycle and resume sleeping -- but it can take way more than 20 minutes, so be patient!
Also:
I already answered your question about this on the WILD Q&A thread, but yes, as I mentioned above I would guess that a slightly longer WBTB period might be worth trying. It could be that you weren't able to gather enough wakefulness during that 10 minutes, but you did manage to set the gears in motion to do so, and they simply kicked in after you lay back down. And yes, time will tell.Quote:
I'm sure time will tell if this is a consistent happening, but as I'm planning on adjusting the length of my WBTB, every so often. I was also wondering if this kind of result is indicative I should opt for a longer or shorter WBTB session.
Thanks a lot for the responses, I have a lot to look over and internalize! I think the lack of duality in the self is a powerful concept that will prove to be helpful.
About the attempt: The thing that was frustrating to me was my significant other in bed next to me was moving minimally in her sleep. For some reason, her movement really seemed to irritate sleepy me who seemed to be demanding absolute relaxation and stillness. I'll try and calm down, especially in the process of relaxing.
An additional question I have after reading your post is centered around the time before WILD. When I used to attempt to achieve a WILD by focusing on my finger movements (often mislabeled as FILD), my alarm would go off, auto-snooze and within a minute I'd be experiencing strong vibrations and HI, though I almost always failed to transition. I suppose my question is why one would choose to deal with such a long transition time especially when one considers the time spent during the WBTB session. Why the extended WBTB time and the long transition time, rather than an attempt immediately after awaking from an alarm when one is so close to falling asleep. I've seen that some people spend more than an hour trying to WILD and my question is why do they opt for such long pursuit if one can attempt to WILD immediately after being awoken in the middle of the night?
The reason I took your class is because I've had issues waking up from my alarm in general so I definitely get this isn't always possible, but for seasoned lucid dreamers, and I'm confident there is some huge flaw in the following statement I'm ignorant of, why is this Immediate Wild attempt upon waking not the golden standard of WILDing?
^^ The Immediate WILD (I didn't know it had a name!) upon waking is not the gold standard because, as you seemed to have discovered already, it doesn't work.
I can think of a few reasons offhand why it doesn't work:
* The primary reason, arguably the only reason, is that lucid dreaming is a function of mind far more than it is a physiological exercise; I would argue that the successful transition to lucidity is purely a state of mind, especially when doing DILD's*, because with WILD you do have to deal with some bodily function -- though even there you are more ignoring those functions than manipulating them. Lucidity depends on building and maintaining a lucid mindset and having that mindset on hand during the transition. WILD is all about maintaining waking-life self-awareness throughout the falling asleep process -- a process that naturally does not include that awareness. Though there are occasional happy accidents, WILD's tend to work only when your lucid mindset is solid, and you need time to reestablish that mindset after awakening so that you can properly gather your waking-life self-awareness. Forcing yourself awake and then going straight back to sleep simply does not allow the time you need to recover that mindset, and certainly doesn't open the door enough for your waking-life Self to enter; indeed, it doesn't even allow you to wake up, really, and being awake is literally what lucidity is all about.
I'm not sure if you noticed, but aside from WBTB and mantras, there is very little in terms of technique in my WILD class. My focus is on getting your head in the right place for lucidity in general, and then being in that right place during a WILD dive. Since your head, and even the heads of the most experienced LDers, is decidedly not in the right place upon a sudden awakening via alarm, you need some time to get your lucid mindset back into place, and a little more time to establish a strong level of waking-life self-awareness (without becoming too awake, of course!), and that is what WBTB is meant to do. Even the best of us are groggy and uncentered upon waking; that never changes; getting ready to become lucid through WILD takes time, period... after all, don't all the best things take a little time and effort?
Also, though I don't mention it much, focus is an important aspect of successful WILD's, and a sudden awakening in the middle of the night is never the best choice for focusing.
If you're not clear on what I'm calling a lucid mindset, basically it is a gathering of the fundamentals -- self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention -- under an umbrella of knowing that you can and will be lucid next time you dream. Not so basically, and something that needs much time to learn, a lucid mindset is ultimately a firmly established non-dual perspective, a perspective in which you know that everything in a dream is You, that there is no dream to go to; only a new thing to think of.
* I've never been a fan of alarms, because they have a tendency not only to wake you up too much, which erases any chance of a successful WILD, but also because, even if you try to match them, they tend to wake you at times that don't line up well with your sleep cycle. The nice thing about waking naturally is that you tend to wake up at the end of REM periods, often with your recent dreams -- and the dreamy state of mind that accompanies them -- still in your head, and that state is an excellent way to start a WBTB. I know I'm an outlier on this, but I really do think alarms are anathema to WILD.
* Physiologically speaking, an Immediate WILD attempt does not allow the time your body needs to undo the processes it uses to keep you asleep... in other words, if you go right back to sleep, all the stuff that kept you asleep before (and kept you from being lucid) is still fully active. Pushing through all that on a moment's notice would be very difficult. And yes, you might feel HI when your body is pulling back to sleep, but in this case the HI is not part of a WILD at all, because you are not lucidly witnessing it so much as you are just consciously experiencing it as you drift inexorably back to sleep.
* And, risking a bit of bad logic, if Immediate WILD's did work, wouldn't we all be doing them? I sure would!
tl;dr: I could go on about this for quite a while, and I know what I've given you is a bit of a possibly incoherent hodgepodge, but I guess what I'm basically saying here is that Immediate WILD's don't work because you lack the lucidity necessary to make them work.
Oh, and in case you think of it, DEILD is not a form of Instant WILD. Though DEILD is very fast, it depends on you already being lucid when you recognize your waking-up process, so your lucid mindset and waking-life self-awareness are already present during the transition back to sleep.
*[As an aside: You might ask then, why aren't we all doing DILD's? Aren't they "immediate?" The trouble here is that DILD's depend just as much on a lucid mindset as WILD's. After all, MILD -- hands-down the best DILD technique -- is pretty much all daywork meant to establish that lucid mindset coupled with careful setting of intention and prospective memory at bedtime. In the end it takes just as long to enjoy consistent DILD's as it does WILD's.]
I understand and agree with everything you've said about alarms as they relate to WILD' and the benefits of waking up naturally. I understand everything in your course and this post is holistic, meaning that the benefits from true understanding will impact my waking and dreaming life [ Though we're now in agreeance that these lives are in fact the same thing :) ]. Thanks a lot, I really appreciate the responses, especially given how old I am to the party. I'll go through the WILD class again with everything we've talked about in mind. Having said that, I'd love to start my WBTB's naturally, but I don't seem to be recognizing those moments when I wake up during the night. I've tried looking up autosuggestion techniques to help with this, started writing down on paper 100 times "I will lay still and be aware after waking up from my dreams." None of these have seemed to help since I've started using them daily for the past two weeks. I've seen the question of how to train one's self to recognize these awakenings raised many times in the Q&A and throughout the forums but I've never seen a definitive answer, do you know of any?
I have no qualms with what you're saying about the purpose of WBTB and the need to regain one's lucid mindset, which is biologically programmed to be lost during sleep. My ultimate goal is to have LD's as frequently as possible, so using an Alarm or attempting WILD's immediately after waking (What's known wrongly as FILD) I'm understanding to be suboptimally aligned with this goal. Having said that I did transition one time after an Alarm/"FILD" attempt and I know people close to me I *rather unfortunately and ignorantly* introduced to the methods spread around as FILD & CANWILD, and who've had success with these techniques.
In the spirit of this thread, what the heck is happening to these people who successfully WILD by directing their focus on their finger movements or their breathing, or anything else immediately after being awoken from an alarm? Are these those "happy little accidents" you mentioned above? Their lucid awareness somehow isn't sufficiently turned off? Does their anticipation/excitement override biological programming? For me, I'd sometimes wake up naturally and other times rely on an alarm, would focus on my finger movements, experience vibrations et al, get too excited or try looking at the HI and wake up.
In these moments I would've sworn and still believe that I did have the 'lucid mindset', but due to my obsessiveness on the HI/Vibrations et al, I failed in my attempts. What you've said suggests to me I should write off the "immediate WILD/CANWILD/FILD" entirely and I haven't had enough/arguably any success that would lead me to oppose doing so. However, my one reservation is that I know some people swear by these "techniques", and I was getting the 'closest' to a LD that I ever have been when I was experiencing Vibrations and HI consistently. However, again I acknowledge the name of the game isn't how often can you experience Vibrations et al or HI, and perhaps these 'immediate WILD attempts' are conducive for consistently experiencing vibrations et al, but maybe not so much for actual WILD's. Very excited to hear back, thank you.
For what it's worth, autosuggestion and prospective memory techniques have never worked for me, and God knows I've tried, so you're not alone. Sadly, there is no definitive answer, at least from me, but I do have a suggestion:Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatoPuss
Try scheduling your WILD attempt for a day off, a day in which you can sleep as late as you want to sleep, and then some. If you are able to do this, chances are you will more easily notice a micro-awakening or two, and can do your WBTB. This is because your waking consciousness is very close to being fully activated very late in the sleep cycle (after, say, 6 or 7 hours), so remembering to do your WBTB should be a bit easier. Here's the catch, though, and it's a catch you might like: Since wakefulness is so close, you might have some difficulty getting back to sleep so, yes, try to keep your WBTB short (10 minutes is still a little too short, even here, though -- maybe 20 minutes?), be sure to avoid any bright morning light or other things that might wake you, and kick your significant other out of bed so you can stay focused and find sleep! ;)
Now to the stuff you're not going to want to hear:
Having an ultimate goal of frequent LD's is an excellent one, but first you must have successful LD transitions occasionally, or even just one! Try not to expect a PhD when you're still in high school. As I may have said earlier, consistent LD'ing is not easy for most of us, and long-term success can take a while... give yourself that while; and by "while" I mean weeks or months of steady work, not just a couple more days.Quote:
I have no qualms with what you're saying about the purpose of WBTB and the need to regain one's lucid mindset, which is biologically programmed to be lost during sleep. My ultimate goal is to have LD's as frequently as possible, so using an Alarm or attempting WILD's immediately after waking (What's known wrongly as FILD) I'm understanding to be suboptimally aligned with this goal. Having said that I did transition one time after an Alarm/"FILD" attempt and I know people close to me I *rather unfortunately and ignorantly* introduced to the methods spread around as FILD & CANWILD, and who've had success with these techniques.
Yes, thanks to things like the placebo effect and high expectation, an excited dreamer can certainly have success with any technique, no matter how bizarre, the first time; even the first few times. But then the placebo effect wears out, excitement dims, and those happy accidents do indeed peter out. This is normal, and a real problem with learning stuff off the internet, where everyone else seems to be an expert regardless of the speciousness of their claims and promises... which brings me to the cynical bit that I probably shouldn't include here:
At the risk of sounding like an old coot, if I had a dollar for every time I heard a dreamer say something like, "I know people close to me...who have had success with these techniques," I wold be a rich man today! People say a lot of things, even good friends you know in person, and not just the folks who find some sort of power in announcing their prowess in special skills like this (though they do abound). I'm not sure what comes over people -- do they want to impress? do they need to 'belong?" Do they really believe they are having all that success? -- but when I used to call people on their "revolutionary" new techniques, they almost always proved to be just making stuff up, or just copying someone else's work; often someone who was also making stuff up, which is where popular things like FILD come from, I think. And sure, there are a few people out there to whom all this comes easily, but think about that for a second: if they became lucid so easily, regularly, or naturally, why on earth would they even think of needing a new technique, much less invent one? After all, the basic techniques for WILD and DILD are pretty straightforward, and downright easy if you're already inclined toward lucidity.
Try to find folks who know what they are talking about, and try out their stuff. There are very few actual experts (meaning people with experience and talent enough to teach the stuff we know, much less introduce new techniques) in the art of LD'ing, but they can be found. For instance, the actual expert Daniel Love recently posted an excellent video on the problems with FILD; you might want to check it out if you haven't already; also, the tutorials and DVA courses on this site are pretty good, and all of the "official" ones should prove helpful, if you're willing to do the work.
Here are some things to look for in identifying actual experts: they rarely volunteer their own successes, much less brag about their expertise without solicitation (if someone tells you they get lucid all the time with great ease, they probably don't, in both cases); they usually focus on known techniques, like MILD or WBTB, and then introduce their own (often helpful) suggestions or twists that might help you in your practice; they never promise that their technique will make you a lucid master immediately; they generally agree that lucidity isn't about techniques at all, but about mindset; and, by far most importantly, they almost always tell you that, even with their instruction, successful lucidity will require a lot of work and time.
If the people are sincere, and having actual success, they are probably not getting lucid because they chose to wiggle a particular finger; they are becoming lucid because their mindset is in the right place and they are focused on being lucid. In other words, they could wiggle their toe, wiggle their their nose, wiggle any body part, or maybe just stick a finger in their navel or up their nose, and become just as lucid just as easily. It isn't about the finger, it's about the focus they're exercising when they wiggle it. As I think Daniel said in his video, FILD could stand for Focus Induced Lucid Dream and be perfectly valid. That the FILD teachers don't know this is a bit puzzling, BTW, and all the more reason to perhaps look elsewhere for advice.Quote:
In the spirit of this thread, what the heck is happening to these people who successfully WILD by directing their focus on their finger movements or their breathing, or anything else immediately after being awoken from an alarm? Are these those "happy little accidents" you mentioned above? Their lucid awareness somehow isn't sufficiently turned off? Does their anticipation/excitement override biological programming? For me, I'd sometimes wake up naturally and other times rely on an alarm, would focus on my finger movements, experience vibrations et al, get too excited or try looking at the HI and wake up.
Again, some people swear by a lot of things, for whatever reasons they may choose; take those claims and promises with a grain of salt (but keep in mind that they might not be knowingly lying to you, sometimes people just want to believe). And again, "getting" to Vibrations and HI when falling asleep does not necessarily mean you are close to lucidity, it just means that you are close to falling asleep and happen to hear some noise. Pretty much everyone, even people who have never heard of LD'ing, experience a bit of noise or vibrations, sometimes quite often; it just means they took an extra few seconds to drop into sleep. In other words, HI happens to all of us, LD'ing does not.Quote:
In these moments I would've sworn and still believe that I did have the 'lucid mindset', but due to my obsessiveness on the HI/Vibrations et al, I failed in my attempts. What you've said suggests to me I should write off the "immediate WILD/CANWILD/FILD" entirely and I haven't had enough/arguably any success that would lead me to oppose doing so. However, my one reservation is that I know some people swear by these "techniques", and I was getting the 'closest' to a LD that I ever have been when I was experiencing Vibrations and HI consistently. However, again I acknowledge the name of the game isn't how often can you experience Vibrations et al or HI, and perhaps these 'immediate WILD attempts' are conducive for consistently experiencing vibrations et al, but maybe not so much for actual WILD's.
Beyond that, and maybe a strong suggestion to be wary of random YouTubes and Reddit forums, I guess the bottom line here is that WILD takes time, effort, and practice to master, regardless of the promises or claims you might hear; take that time, do the work, and you might find yourself with a PhD in WILD eventually!
^ Thanks a lot. I'm going through the process of retraining my brain of what I think I know about Lucid Dreaming and WILD. Expanding the domain of my ignorance.
Anyhow, last night I had a 20-minute WBTB session followed by a little over an hour of a WILD attempt. I wanted to give up several times, (feeling like I needed to swallow, turn over, or annoyed by my partner's movements in bed next to me) but I'm glad I didn't quit as early as these sensations came on. Eventually, I did have to kick the covers off because of the heat and the pool of sweat I was melting into. I still didn't have a LD but I feel like I learned a lot more about the experience and am that much closer to my next successful WILD.
I feel that while in the LDHSW phase, I was thinking too much and need to get better at treading the line where I'd actually be able to fall asleep. I was almost telling myself how to fall asleep, stressing about still holding still and my hand falling asleep under my pillow, rather than focusing on my mantra and allowing myself to drift off. When I let the natural rhythm of my breath take over, and placed my mantra 'float' gently at the end of each exhale, I realized I actually started to feel myself drifting off. Prior to doing this, I was confident I could've stayed up the entire night without ever falling sleep. I also noticed that sprinkling some "I'm so tired" into my internal conversation led significant tension leaving my body and feeling closer to the onset of sleep.
Also at one point, I experienced a weight on my body and my entire body tingled in excitement, which immediately set me back. I'm confident the more of these experiences I have, and the less foreign they become to me, the more control I'll have over my thoughts and feelings during my WILD attempts.
A couple of thoughts/questions I have:
1) Sometimes I had some involuntary swallowing going on but it didn't seem to wake me up as much as those times where I was consciously responsible for it. I'm not sure if this is just because it was later into the WILD attempt and I was closer to being asleep or if it did make any difference. Thoughts and do you have any tips for avoiding these swallowing impulses in general?
2) I attempted the entire WILD laying on my right side as I read that I'd fall asleep faster than if I laid on my back. Is this true? Additionally, I think this might benefit the swallowing issue above?
3) I realized that I'm really not paying any attention to the back of my eyelids with my vision during LDHSW, should I try to so I'm a little more grounded in addition to a more gentle mantra?
4) This has been my longest / most sincere WILD attempt yet (20 min WBTB + 1 Hour of LDHSW) and I had the mentality throughout of "it takes as long as it takes" and "I'm not giving up", though I didn't find the LDHSW particularly stressful or exhaustive, more so frustrating. I found the crux of my issue was the failure to have my only conscious thoughts being gently placed on my mantra. I think I've made strides in the wandering thoughts via the "I'm so sleepy" mantra and the excessive effort issue by placing the repetition at the end of the exhale rather than at the beginning.
Looking forward to hearing thoughts.
All in all a valiant effort, PlatoPuss; nice work!
A couple of quick thoughts before I respond to your specific questions:
First, and I should have said this before: Be very careful that you don't put too much thought into all this. Try not to examine (or struggle to remember) every single detail of your WILD attempt. That may sound counter-intuitive, because, well, you want to know, and want me to know, right? However, the processes involved in noting and mentally cataloguing all this stuff can be distracting; perhaps distracting enough to prevent you from being properly focused on the only thing that matters: getting to the dream. WILD, and lucid dreaming in general, is essentially a holistic journey; letting yourself getting caught up in all those parts might slow or even stall that journey.
Also, you hadn't mentioned if you changed your timing on your WILD attempt. If not, here's my suggestion again; since I do think it might be a valuable change, I figured it was worth repeating:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Now to those questions:
Ignore them.Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatoPuss
Holding still does not mean suppressing all bodily functions, no matter how lowly; and I'm eternally annoyed at the "experts" who tell you you can't even swallow (or scratch, or get some hair out of your eye, or throw your partner out of bed, etc, etc). If you have to swallow, then for God's sake swallow! Letting the passing sensation of a swallow (and the relief that it might provide) do its thing for the second or two involved is far less distracting than spending precious minutes focused on not swallowing. Obviously if you have some sort of "swallow attack" and there's no hope of ignoring it, then it is indeed time to get up, have some water, and go back to your WILD attempt refreshed -- but definitely wait until you get to that point!
Yes, you probably will fall asleep faster on your side, especially if that is what usually works for you, and the Tibetan Dream Yogis do say that men -- not women, oddly -- can do their LD work on their right side (I don't know where they got that from, though...), but keep in mind those lamas are already experts in their field: The reason it's recommended that WILD attempts are done are your back (and one I agree with) is exactly because it takes longer to get to sleep on your back. Forcing your body to take a bit longer to get to sleep theoretically allows you a chance to maintain your awareness further into -- and hopefully all the way into -- your falling asleep process.Quote:
2) I attempted the entire WILD laying on my right side as I read that I'd fall asleep faster than if I laid on my back. Is this true? Additionally, I think this might benefit the swallowing issue above?
So yes, falling asleep is your goal, but so is still being present after you've done so. I suggest that you keep trying to go to sleep on your back (and for the same reasons avoid the "rollover" urge that often occurs late in a WILD). Later, when you've developed your skills, you will likely find that WILD works from any position.
I don't know if it effects swallowing either way, though, and I urge you not to care...
You know, it took me 5 full minutes to figure out what the hell LDHSW stood for? Silly me.Quote:
3) I realized that I'm really not paying any attention to the back of my eyelids with my vision during LDHSW, should I try to so I'm a little more grounded in addition to a more gentle mantra?
It looks like you might have something else to unlearn here: Why on earth would you want to pay attention to the backs of your eyelids, ever, during a WILD attempt? Never mind; don't tell me... suffice it to say that no, just close your eyes and do your thing. The only thing you need to do with your eyes is keep them as removed from light as possible (blackout curtains, sleep mask, both, as needed).
The only other thing I can think of to do with your eyes is if you are into/using visualization during the WILD process. If that's the case, aiming your eyes up (but still mentally "looking" forward) is a good idea.
Okay, this may be a thing:Quote:
4) This has been my longest / most sincere WILD attempt yet (20 min WBTB + 1 Hour of LDHSW) and I had the mentality throughout of "it takes as long as it takes" and "I'm not giving up", though I didn't find the LDHSW particularly stressful or exhaustive, more so frustrating. I found the crux of my issue was the failure to have my only conscious thoughts being gently placed on my mantra. I think I've made strides in the wandering thoughts via the "I'm so sleepy" mantra and the excessive effort issue by placing the repetition at the end of the exhale rather than at the beginning.
Though having the intentions of "not giving up" or "it takes as long as it takes" are very good things, try to keep either of those thoughts out of your head during the WILD attempt. Let them simply become things you know. If you can do this, then you might find yourself a little less frustrated.
Also, that "I'm so sleepy" mantra sounds like a good idea, but you might want rethink it. This is because it reminds me of that question: "If someone tells you not to think of an elephant, what do you suppose you'll be thinking of?" Instead of thinking about getting to sleep (or, slightly worse, about not getting to sleep), just relax and try to think only about your upcoming dream... indeed, that's pretty much what your mantra is for; so you might try to have it relate more to your dream than to the process itself.
Regarding those wandering thoughts; Give them a home:
One meditation trick you might try to do this is to magine (without thinking too hard about it!) a gentle stream flowing beside you. whenever a stray thought wanders in simply imagine it drifting not around in your head but rather into that stream, where it will be taken gently away. It's not an easy thing to master, unless you're already good at meditating, but it is worth a try.
There; now that I've jammed all this critique into a genuinely good effort, I guess I'll stop (my wife is insisting it's time for drinks anyway). God luck with your next dive!
Hi, Sageous! Lang turned me onto the thread, and I ended up reading all your lessons, and interestingly enough I remember reading them a long time ago too, but who knows when. At any rate, I was a teenager, and re-reading all you've written as an adult it's striking to me how much experience you have on the subject, and how much of what you'd written I probably did not pay proper attention to/wasn't able to understand was extremely important advice for various reasons, obviously including WILDs. So anyway, thanks for your almost decade of work in this course and in this thread. I'm pretty sure you helped me when I was a teenager, and I suspect you're about to help me again as an adult, following this course more carefully!
Tiny backstory: back when I was trying to WBTB and WILD very actively for a couple of months, I experienced a few successes back to back, got a big head, never experienced another success and quickly lost interest in trying due to frustration. I was probably 18 or 19 at the time (2012-13?), so I'm not surprised by my impatience! Hoping to give it a more earnest go this time.
On thread topic: I haphazardly decided to try a WILD last night after years of not attempting (before re-reading this course today).
I set my so-called "Indian alarm clock" (no idea where I heard the term, but I have struggled to forget it) by drinking a glass of water so I'd have to get up and pee, woke up around 4-and-a-half-ish hours after I laid down, got up and peed, and then came back to bed to attempt my WILD. I tried the "counting your breaths while visualizing numbers" thing that people have suggested, eventually started to fall asleep, made what I now know was the fatal mistake of rolling on my side, and then hard fell asleep. And had a DILD! But failed the WILD, obviously.
Re-reading your course informed me just how haphazard my attempt was! My self-awareness during the day is not quite as good as it could be in the first place, so I will definitely set to work improving that and trying to find a meaningful mantra. I'll also try increasing my WBTB time, because it was only a couple minutes!
As an aside, a thought I had while reading some of this thread (which I plan to continue reading through for motivation and nuggets of advice): I always seemed to have the most success with the "finger movement" WILD, but I want to try a mantra instead (maybe I will try combining them both or something later but I'll stick to the curriculum for now!). At any rate, I guess the reason the technique works, that I never considered (I had simply considered it an effective distraction), is that it gives you a constant reminder of your body and an intentional 'movement' that keeps you grounded in self-awareness. Perhaps that was obvious or the reason for it in the first place, but I had never considered it until now. Does that sound right?
Anyway, sorry for all the words, and thanks again for all your work. I'll definitely be posting attempts in here while I go for my first, fresh, successful WILD!
Edit 6/29 to avoid double posting:
Logged my hour-and-a-half WILD attempt in my dream journal and came away with some takeaways which I hope will be helpful.
All in all a pretty good attempt, Lifeinsteps; thanks for sharing!
I read your account in your DJ, and honestly I couldn't glean much from it that might show what may have gone wrong. Perhaps nothing did -- sometimes WILD's just don't happen. However:
One thing I couldn't help but notice that, though you documented so much else, there was pretty much nothing noted about the anticipated lucid dream itself, which should have been your primary focus throughout the dive. Maybe next time you can start with a meditation that is more directly dream-related, perhaps about what you expect to experience, or, if you like to be philosophical, about how you're going to a place where everything is you, including, say, cause and effect. Also, maybe use a mantra that anticipates the dream, rather than one that, to me, seems to solidify your physical position. There is nothing more important in WILD than having your head in the right place, and if it is not, you can do every technique perfectly and still never transition to lucidity.
That was pretty much the big one, but here are a couple of lesser thoughts/suggestions:
I think you probably shouldn't shorten your WBTB. 15 minutes is a pretty short time, and I have a feeling that its length didn't contribute that much to your inability to fall asleep. I would stick with it -- or even add a few minutes -- for your next few attempts, and see what happens. Also, be sure that what you do during your WBTB doesn't wake you up too much (i.e., no phones, TV, bright lights, conversations, etc). Maybe you could spend the time thinking about your plans for your upcoming LD, to help get your head in the right place for the attempt.
Your decision to not clasp your hands next time is probably a good one. Clasping your hands like that -- and the fact that they went numb because of it -- gave you way too much to pay attention to that had nothing to do with the dream.
I liked your description of FILD (the "finger movement" thing). Normally I suggest people avoid gimmicky techniques like this, but, since you understand that it isn't about your moving finger as much as it is about your focus on something moving that helps with the WILD transition, it'll probably work for you. That said, try not to think too much -- or anything at all -- about what that finger is doing during your attempt, lest it become the center of your attention rather than your upcoming dream.
Oh, and in closing I always like to mention that if your WILD attempt fails but results in a DILD, then did the attempt really fail? After all, lucidity is lucidity, no matter how you get there!