Originally Posted by Arutad
If a madman sees a hallucination and thinks that it's violet floating swan, is he unaware of the hallucination? What do you think? - CORRECT - HE IS UNAWARE OF HIS HALLUCINATION. A MADMAN DOES NOT 'SEE A HALLUCINATION' - HE SEES A VIOLET FLOATING SWAN, AND, AS WE ESTABLISHED BEFORE, SEEING, OR SENSING, IS NOT THE SAME THING AS 'AWARING'. HE THINKS HE IS AWARE OF A VIOLET FLOATING SWAN, WHEN, IN FACT, THERE IS NO SUCH THING. IF HE KNEW IT WAS A HALLUCINATION, HE WOULD BE AWARE OF THE HALLUCINATION. IN THE SAME WAY, WE ARE NOT AWARE WHEN WE ARE IN DREAMS UNLESS WE KNOW THEY ARE NOT REAL.
The same should gooes for other things about nature of which you could be mistaken. When people watched sun in past, they thought it to be a perfect sphere put up in heavens by god. They were not aware of the "true nature of sun" as we know it nowadays, but they were aware of the sun itself. - THIS IS AN OPEN POINT - IT IS DIFFICULT TO DRAW THE LINE ON HOW MUCH INFORMATION YOU HAVE ABOUT AN OBJECT BEFORE YOU CAN SAY YOU ARE AWARE OF IT - PERHAPS I MUST SAY THAT THE SOLE DETERMINING FACTOR OF AWARENESS OF 'X' IS AWARENESS OF ITS EXISTENCE OR NONEXISTENCE. THEN, PAST PEOPLE WERE AWARE OF THE SUN, JUST AS PRESENT PEOPLE ARE. I WILL HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THIS.
NOTE, PLEASE, THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS THE HALLUCINATION EXAMPLE, AS YOU INDICATE ABOVE. HERE, THE PAST PEOPLE WERE AWARE OF THE THING'S EXISTENCE SO THEY CONTINUED TO BE AWARE WHEN NEW INFORMATION ABOUT THE PARTICULAR QUALITIES OF THE EXISTING THING CAME TO LIGHT, BUT THE MADMAN WAS NOT AWARE OF THE THING'S NON-EXISTENCE, SO HE IS DOOMED TO UNAWARENESS.
So what is the thing that defines what exists and what doesn't, separating things into "awarable" and not "awarable"? And does it happen to pass its judgements on realness\fakeness simultaneously or after-the-fact, when you already became aware of something? - I DON'T HAVE TO KNOW WHAT DEFINES WHAT EXISTS AND WHAT DOES NOT EXIST FOR MY ARGUMENT TO WORK, I ONLY HAVE TO KNOW THAT SOME THINGS DO EXIST AND SOME THINGS DO NOT EXIST. I THINK YOU ARE MISSING SOMETHING HERE - ANYTHING IS 'AWARABLE', EVEN THINGS THAT DO NOT EXIST. THIS IS CONSISTENT WITH WHAT I HAVE PREVIOUSLY SAID. FOR EXAMPLE, THINGS IN DREAMS DO NOT EXIST, BUT I HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID WE CAN BE AWARE OF THEM IF WE ARE AWARE THEY DO NOT EXIST.
I don't understand this point fully.
To refer to the madman example, it's the same as to say that his hallucination (dream) doesn't exist and he is not aware of it... although he may be aware of it, even acting it out, so isn't he aware of "it" (whatever "it" is, hallucination or reality)? - I THINK YOU DO UNDERSTAND MY POINT. I SAY THE MADMAN IS NOT AWARE OF "IT" BECAUSE HE DOES NOT KNOW "IT" DOES NOT EXIST. IT SEEMS YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS, BUT I THINK YOU ARE WRONG. WOULD YOU SAY WE ARE AWARE OF OUR DREAMS WHEN WE DO NOT KNOW THEY ARE DREAMS? (I.E. IS THE MADMAN AWARE OF HIS HALLUCINATION WHEN HE DOES NOT KNOW IT IS A HALLUCINATION?) IF YOU ANSWER YES, YOU MUST SAY EVERYONE IS ALWAYS LUCID WHEN DREAMING, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY FALSE.
Agreed.
You don't think that observation of qualities makes you more aware, though, do you? Evaluation of qualities is rather a separate process from simple "awaring" imho, it's a rational process... as the example with a madman would show. - SEE MY RESPONSE ABOVE REGARDING THE SUN EXAMPLE. I AGREE MOST QUALITIES OF AN OBJECT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH 'AWARING', BUT SOME QUALITIES, SUCH AS EXISTENCE, I HAVE DUBBED 'ESSENTIAL PROPERTIES', WHICH FACTOR INTO 'AWARING'. THIS NOTION MIGHT GET COMPLICATED, BECAUSE EXAMINATION OF ORDINARY QUALITIES SOMETIMES HELPS US TO DETERMINE EXISTENCE, AS IN DREAMS.
Arutad, my responses are above in bold caps. The first and fifth paragraphs are probably the most important.
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