Ask me about veganism....
& I'll be happy to answer. :)
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Ask me about veganism....
& I'll be happy to answer. :)
Where do you get your portein supply?
I've heard vegans say that they feel much healthier and more clear-headed after becoming vegans. Do you find this to be true? Also, is there any science behind that, because going by our food recommendations, we should eat meat, it's supposed to be healthy for us, so I don't see how not eating meat can make one feel healthier.
^^ Dude it all depends on a person's individual dietary needs. We're not all the same.
As for a question.. Are you one of the annoying vegans who preach their veganism, proclaiming it's the right way to live for everyone?
If so:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant
This might lighten the mood:
HTML Embed tags don't work here... I've replaced it with the YouTube tag implemented a while ago. ~ Wavefunction
Where does the name Vegan come from anyway?
^^ Haha!! Couldn't have said it better myself.
Edit: Err, to Kushna's post. Damn you people are fast!
Dammit, that HTML surely didn't work out as intended.
Here's a link to the video I was trying to post!
\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puGYYhTs4Fo
Ha, funny you posted some Immortal Technique cuz I'm going to see him here next month, July 29th I think it is...
PS Damn, someone posts something about veganism and - what's up with the hostility?
PSS Yea, I probably was one of those annoying vegans like 10 years ago, but now I'm old, chilled out, hate arguing and just like to have some rational talk about health & food choices and how our decisions make an impact on the world. :)
Protein is easy....
soybeans/tofu
and about everything else I eat?
Seriously, it's not hard to get enough protein on a vegetarian or vegan diet. I dont even think about it. (For what it's worth, when my blood was tested years ago, it had adequate protein supplies.)
The idea that it's hard to get enough protein on a vegan diet is a very persistent myth... for more proof check out the bodybuilding folks at veganbodybuilding.com
Protein is NOT hard to get on a vegan diet. If anything, items of concern would be B12 and iron.
How do you get B12 and iron?
B12 comes from my multivitamin. It's also added to a some vegan friendly products like Silk soymilk..
Iron -I get this from leafy green vegetables, which I should probably eat more of :) - and from my multivitamin.
If you didn't take the vitamin would you still be able to find an adequate amount of B12 and iron in vegan food products?
Good question.
For iron- yea, defintiely.
For B12 - yes, you could, but here's why it's complicated:
- a healthy body makes B12 but it's not so certain if the B12 the body makes is used in the same way that external sources of B12 are used for bodily needs (strange, I know)
- B12 is naturally producted on plants but washing the plant thoroughly for sanitary reasons will remove the B12 - so while, if you were looking at this from a purely "natural" standpoint, wherein perhaps a primitive human wouldn't wash the hell out of all his or her produce, they would get B12. But in our modern society, everything is cleaned x2, so... this removes the B12
So did you become a vegan for animal rights reasons or health reasons or a little of both or something else?
My mom worked with a vegan. She (the vegan) also made her children vegans, and they were living fine. Eventually they got sick and so did she partially. Apparently they weren't getting sufficient vitamines or proteines (or whatever), and they ended up getting sick. She's fine, since she became a vegan "late" in here life, but the youngest of the kids now have unrecoverable braindamage (not extreme stuff like downs like stuff, but it still disables her to some extents), and the older one is going through some tough recovery stuff. Now they're all meat eaters.
What do you think of that?
There was an article in the paper yesterday about a 9 year old girl who had died from malnutrition, and she was a vegan. Her parents were both vegans. Just thought I'd mention it. Not being hostile or anything.
what exactly is a vegan?
dictionary definition
To my knowledge, a vegan is a person who doesn't eat any animals, or any of whatever they may happen to produce, ie. milk and honney.
Or, to quote Wikipedia;
"Veganism is a philosophy and lifestyle that seeks to exclude the use of animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose."
Do you eat Gluten stuff? Also, what about black molasses with soy milk? When I was vegan, I got to like those.
that is not possibleQuote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
Vegans are just people who don't know how the ecosystems works. There's virtually no reason for us to use animals, but on the contrary, there's no reason not to either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot
Well, except for survival, health, science and quality of life... but those are negligible. We wouldn't even have copper without cows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
I know I've said all this before
(we've had 2 or 3 other vegan threads in the past)
but it just seems so stupid
by all means eat (or don't eat) whatever you want
you have full control over your own diet
but quit this whole "any other purpose" crap
cause you have no control over external events
I'm not a vegan by the way. I think vegans and vegetarians are complete and utter idiots, but that's just my opinion.
Wait. Vegans don't eat honey, either?? :eek: Holy crap I didn't even think of that one. For crying out loud, I bet most "vegans" out there aren't even aware of all the things we use animal products for. It's in table sugar, too. They're all just dilusional. :P Not to er, be rude.
UGH. There is another vegetarian thread somewhere and I posted the same video today. I didn't see that it was here too. Now I look like I stole it. Aww...I guess I'll delete it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed
You could become a super-vegan from the Simpsons (I think) and not eat anything that casts a shadow...
Most vegans are well aware of 'hidden' animal products, most of which are non-issues when you drop processed, packaged foods. The big exception is poop-based fertilizer in organic crops, which most vegans just accept, or do their own gardening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant
Personally, I don't find animal agriculture inherently cruel or unethical, but dominant modern practices definitely are unethical, non-nourishing, culture-impoverishing and overall destructive.
Hehe... seconded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
My Aunt and Uncle are vegans.
My aunt is now sterile, and they are both overweight.
Ah, so it may be genetic.
Piss off, dropout.
And no you moron they were in good health before they decided to become vegetarian.
Ah, so it may not be genetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seismosaur
Hey, yeah?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kael Seoras
Mainly animal rights reasons, although now I don't think about it either way, it's just the way I eat.
BTW, here are some vegan body builders. Don't look very diseased or mulnutrioned to me...( although perhaps one of them went crazy on the tanning solution...)
PS Now I know a bunch of pictures don't make an argument, but neither does some story in the newspaper about some horrible human beings who killed their kid via malnutrition.
2005 World Body Building Champion - a vegan named Alexander Dargatz
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/img...lex2/alex5.jpg
Here's another vegan bodybuilder:
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/img...omp_front1.jpg
Robert Cheeke, Veganbodybuilding.com founder:
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/images/baw/baw8.jpg
....and then there's me below, preparing for my latest ultra triathalan around the world UFC fighter competition jump-roping fight to the death, with nothing but the best raw materials nature has to offer: BELARUSSIAN GRAPES. :banana:
http://images29.fotki.com/v1035/phot...SCF3430-vi.jpg
Those body builders are overdoing it imo...
Grapes are good though :P
ha you're going to see immortal technique and not dead prez....some vegan you are!
Oh man I would love to see Dead Prez. I don't even think they're a group anymore though?
No way , No WAY!!!!!!!!!!! I went to America last year and half the country was overweight. Im sure none of them were vegans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seismosaur
Lol you probably click his thread , just to bash on his beliefs .
Vegan here for 2 years and I really dont care what anybody has to say about it.
Yes, he is one of those "I"M SO PROUD TO BE A VEGAN" because he made another post talking about how Vegans and Vegetarians of DV should group together.
Oh, and I'm eating a cheeseburger right now.
Nobody gives a shit what you are eating...Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazeO XD
He made that thread , for vegans to talk about about vegan stuff. Not for dumbasses like you , to bash on.
Seriously you really need to stop forcing your meat eating beliefs down people throats. Nobody force you to click this or any vegan thread.
Nicel :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Halocuber
I dated a vegan once. She only ate oatmeal (and sometimes granola). I can't imagine how much that girl must have pooped :shock:
I've known lots of vegans, and they have all just used it as an excuse for being anorexic. Maybe I just know bad vegans, but I think an eating disorder is an eating disorder, no matter how much you try to create reasons for it.
What are your top reasons for being vegan, Ben?
Are you saying veganism is a eating disorder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot_Butler
In my opinion, yes. I'm not trying to be a dick. I just think cutting out whole food groups as a form of protest points to a mental imbalance. It is using food as a scape goat for personal issues. Similar to how a lot of overweight people overeat when they are depressed.
I was just eating a cheseburger. That's all.. Why is that so bad?!
yeah it'd be effin amazing to see dead prez!! one of the dudes played a benefit in new orleans that was organised by my housemates friend a while back, and was really angry that they didn't pay him in cash....he would have to declare the cheque to the irs!!! comedy gold! RGB for life!
oh and whoever said that veganism is a form of protest is severely misguided. it's an ethical decision and about realising that meat is not a product to be taken off a shelf and consumed. it's so easy not to think about where your steak came from, to ignore that it was once a living thing that could feel every bit as much pain as we can, and to ignor the process by which it came to be on the supermarket shelf.
i have nothing but respect for people who kill their own animals and consume them and don't rely on a middleman to do it for them. that also makes people less wasteful of the animal and not so snobby about which parts of them they will or will not eat.
oh i didn't realise that was a question about dead prez still being together...as far as i know they both do solo stuff now, but have not officially split up.
Hey Ben,
My daughter is vegan,but seems to be always tried. Any suggestions. She takes supplements, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
Thanks
What does she eat? Is she physically active? Those are the main questions--she needs a varied diet including lots of fresh fruit+veg and plenty of greens, and reasonable exercise. I'd say constantly explore, too--new foods, new preparations, veggies and shrooms she hasn't tried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel
seeds are really good for many things like fatty acids that are hard to find in vegan diets. hemp seeds are the best and are really nutritious. nuts are very good for us all, most nutritious if you leave them raw not roasted.
grains like quinoa, millet, bulghar wheat and barley are good alternatives to rice, pasta and potatoes.
raw leafy greens, spinach, chard, lettuce, sprouts and the like are very good for iron and when these are eaten, orange juice or another vitamin c combo should be consumed too, so that the iron can be easily assimilated into the body.
get her to try miso, seaweed, tofu, seed pate, hummous, falafel and really experiment with new foods.
some really good vegan cookbooks are;
How it all Vegan!: Irresistible Recipes for an Animal-Free Diet: Sarah Kramer, Tanya Barnard
Hot Damn and Hell Yeah! Recipies for Hungry Banditos and the Dirty South Vegan Cookbook: Ryan Splint, Vanessa Doe
Vegan Deli: Wholesome Ethnic Fast Food, Joanne Stepaniak
I think that is pretty respectable, but I still see it as a form of protest. If you don't like how animals are treated, then do something to change the system. Just refusing to buy or eat anything that has to do with animals won't do much except make your life a lot more difficult. I think limiting your diet is a selfish and self destructive response, because food is eaten for survival, social purposes, and enjoyment. There is a lot of mental baggage that comes along with eating. It is hardwired into our brains. Then again, I don't know what a better response would be, so I'm not much help :(Quote:
Originally Posted by dweezil
I hate modern corn farming practices (I really do, I'm not just saying this). I'm not going to stop eating every form of corn, stop driving because of the ethanol in my gas, and make sure every grain I eat has not been processed in a plant that also processes corn. Then I would have to expect food manufacturers to start labeling their food, "This food was processed in a plant that also processes corn." I expect gas stations to provide ethanol free gas. I can only eat at restaurants that serve corn-free food on the menu. I can't eat at friends houses, or family functions, because they cooked corn in their pans. Food is a very big part of life, and using it as a form of protest touches many aspects of your life, and the lives of those around you.
Just my opinion. I think veganism is a pretty extreme belief system, so I hope everyone is ok with me having an extreme response to it. If I'm offending anyone, I'll mind my own business :)
hey robot butler. the first boycott ever, happened here in the west of ireland in the late 1800's. led by charles stewart parnell, it was a community based response to the landlord, captain boycott (that's where the word came from). the community rallied together and refused to speak with him, buy anything from shops he owned, pay rent to him, deliver his post, serve hime in shops etc...the amazing thing is that it worked. if enough people care for each other, support each other and work together, anything can happen. boycotting the english government later helped ireland to gain autonomy from great britain. there have been many boycotts of coca cola and nestle across university student's unions world wide. these have eaten chunks of profit previously gained by these not so nice companies. many other groups working for community and social change have used this method effectively too.
i'm not saying that everybody should be vegan and boycott the meat industry, but boycotting as a form of protest does work and if more people do it change can occur, and it's a fucking amazing change, because it's brought about in such an beautiful inspiring way. if people want do do it on a personal level too then i think that's wonderful, because at the end of the day we all have to be able to face ourselves when we look in the mirror.
Good point. Maybe I'm the one placing the unhealthy over importance on food. For some reason, I categorize food differently from other goods. I wonder why I see a food boycott as self destructive and unhealthy, but I'm fine with anything else.
I guess the word hyppocrite fits nicely :D
I was also thinking about my own eating habits. I eat insanely healthy, and avoid certain kinds of food for health reasons. I'm ok with vegetarians saying, "I don't eat meat because I believe it is unhealthy." I eat vegetarian 90% of the time anyways. For some reason, I'm not ok with vegans avoiding all animal related products. Maybe it really is an ignorance issue on my part, and now I am just making excuses. I think I just don't understand the reasons behind it, because I've never known anyone with good reasons.
So, why would someone avoid all animal products altogether? Honestly, what are some good reasons?
yeah..i think the majority of people in the west see food as a luxury. it's not something to keep you alive and healthy, but something indulgent and pleasurable...much like smoking. one of the original reasons i decided to be veggie (no i'm not vegan) was to see if i had the discipline to actually do it. that was 11 years ago. since then i have learned a lot more and worked primarily in vegetarian/vegan/whole foods restaurants. i hear what you are saying about people with eating disorders using veganism/vegetarianism as an excuse to be anorexic, i've also seen a lot of that, but here are some good reasons to be vegan/veggie.
many people who eat meat can't cook. they are detached from food and consume processed, convenient junk foods high in salt and sugar. they also see it as being normal to consume gross fast food. if you become more selective about what you feed your body, you will feed it better. you're also forced to learn more about nutrition and learn to cook things from scratch that taste good.
if you wouldn't eat a dog/cat/goat/rat/guinea pig or whatever, then ask why you will allow yourself to eat an animal deemed to be "ok to eat" by someone else, and killed by someone else. why choose the convenience of removing yourself from the process? why not breed your own chickens or pigs. if people did this they would realise the work it takes to be able to eat and would equate eating with work, which is traditionally how it was, rather than equating making money with being able to eat. it's amazing to eat food that you have grown yourself even if it's only a lettuce or a few spring onions. such satisfaction.
if we all took back our own personal responsibility for food production, there would be less of a "food crisis" in the world at present. i believe that american supermarkets were recently rationing rice.
the agricultural land used in the world for farming animals would be more efficiently used to grow crops, though i don't think that industrial agriculture is that way forward.
battery farms for chickens are absolutely appalling. i keep chickens and they are so cool. they have individual personalities and characteristics. they are extremely sociable and enjoy human contact. watch the battery farm scene from the movie baraka.
animals are fed all sorts of hormones and shit to make them worth more money.
animals are fed the offal from other animals to reduce waste and save money. this makes for fucked up meat. brittish beef took a hammering in the 80's and 90's due to bse or mad cow disease. i dunno what other types of things have gone on, but i'd rather not partake of that stuff.
i spoke with a nutritionist before who told me that in her experience, women who had gone through breast cancer and recovered, were more likely to get the cancer again if they ate chicken that was not free range and organic, due to hormones fed to the hens.
jeez that's a lot of reasons. i hope that's enough! : )
hey i just read back and realised that i'd kind of addressed your point but in a very round about way. basically, by not buying into all of the rotten meat industry shit that goes on, vegans feel a little less hypocritical and ethical consumerism is important if we all can't be farmers and we live in a consumer society.
I don't have any vegan children, so I don't feel qualified to give out suggestions for nutrition advice if your daughter is often tired. :/
Have you checked out vegfamily.com? I wonder if they have some good info. The site is run by Erin Pavlina, both her and husband Steve are vegan and so are their children. Erins also written a cookbook for vegan families.
What about forums for vegan families - that might be another neat place to check out.
Oh yea - someone was posting that they thought veganism was on par with an eating disorder. While I don't think that's a fair statement to make (at all) I think I know where you're coming from - unfortunately vegetarianism and veganism can be used to mask an eating disorder, where a person (esp. someone young and not cooking their own food yet) can use it as a reason for not eating their entire meal b/c it's not all vegan. I personally haven't known anyone who I thought was vegan and had an eating disorder, but I think a lot of people -particularly teenage girls with eating disorders, might try to play the veggie card to hide the disorder. :(
Body builders use steroids. They are gross. Bad, bad examples of humanity in general, much less vegans. :chuckle:
Anyway I don't see this whole "it's bad to eat poor little animals" thing. We are omnivores by nature, man. We're not like lions who are only carnivores, we are not like giraffes who are only herbivores. We are omnivores. I don't see why an argument is even possible. :whyme:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel
She needs to go to a specialist. Every person's body is different, she needs to figure out what works for her as a unique being. Specialist! Go!
Mes Tarrant maybe this will help you , also please note that it hasn't been proven if humans are actually herivores or omnivores.
Humans are herbivores by anatomical and physiological design who have been inculcated (taught) to eat both flesh and plants in many societies of today.
Thus, though humans are 'cultural omnivores', eating flesh causes a number of diseases in humans that are not produced in natural omnivores or carnivores, such as atherosclerosis. :D
Also maybe this will help :
Facial Muscles
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed
Jaw Type
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle
Jaw Joint Location
CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars
Jaw Motion
CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Major Jaw Muscles
CARNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids
Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
CARNIVORE: Large
HERBIVORE: Small
OMNIVORE: Large
HUMAN: Small
Teeth: Incisors
CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Teeth: Canines
CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HUMAN: Short and blunted
Teeth: Molars
CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps
Chewing
CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary
Saliva
CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Stomach Type
CARNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
OMNIVORE: Simple
HUMAN: Simple
Stomach Acidity
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Stomach Capacity
CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract
Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length
Colon
CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HUMAN: Long, sacculated
Liver
CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Kidney
CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine
Nails
CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HUMAN: Flattened nails
"If you look at various characteristics of carnivores (meat-eaters) versus herbivores (non-meat eaters), it doesn't take a genius to see where humans compare"
Interesting. Could link me to the source of that data? Is the source still not good enough then to prove it one way or another?
For what I just posted : wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_humans_omnivores_or_herbivores -Quote:
Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant
If you looking for more info you can check almost every site in the net. Also its a really debatable topic. I really suggest getting info. from both sides of the topic
this chicken salad sandwich says otherwise...Quote:
Originally Posted by Halocuber
Why aren't vegans anti-human because our mere existance causes so much suffering to wildlife that we might as well userpe them to save them the pain anyway?
That's the cause of the robot rebellionQuote:
Originally Posted by Idolfan
Humans are their own worst enemy
their mere presence harms all creatures, including their fellow kin
for the good of the majority, humans must be removed
Humans are the only hope for eventually creating a better place to live in. It took half a billion years of constant torment before we showed up and it may well take another half a billion years before the next civilisation shows up. All the animals don't really understand what's going on! We seem to be the only race that understands nature SUCKS. I stick my mighty middle finger up at nature because it dictates that we live lives of constant hunger and illness in nomadic tribes accompnied by half insane men and saggy boobs. It's DISGUSTING. That's the horrible reality of the cute little bunnies hopping around in the fields. I know you were probably just making a joke but I just want to make that perfectly clear anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot
Wow, that is completely 100% not true at all. My brother tried to make that argument for a couple years when he first went veggie. It just doesn't hold up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Halocuber
I couldn't agree more. You think a pride of lions is sitting in the African Savannah right now discussing whether or not they should stop eating the zebras. I'm sure Simba is up on a soap box trying to convince Nala that eating a baby zebra's guts out while its still alive is cruel? It's time to come back to reality a little, people.Quote:
Humans are the only hope for eventually creating a better place to live in. It took half a billion years of constant torment before we showed up and it may well take another half a billion years before the next civilisation shows up. All the animals don't really understand what's going on! We seem to be the only race that understands nature SUCKS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot_Butler
Agreed on both counts.
(Plus.. that was.. a ... wiki .. article..)
If your daughter is tired and vegan, perhaps you should realize that veganism in non-adults is a form of pretty severe malnutrition.
Korittke, rachel never said how old her daughter is, so stop being so sanctimonious. for all you know her daughter could be in her 30's, and raising a child vegan is not going to produce a malnourished child. i know several "chunky" vegan children who are healthier than me and i am not vegan! take a look at all the kids raised on bullshit processed food who are then prescribed ritalin (speed) for add. if these kids weren't given soda and candy from the time they grow their first tooth they might just be ok. also look at diabetes levels of children with "normal" diets.
Idolfan, i have just one question for you; do you smoke crack? your point makes no sense, it had no relevance to this thread and is really incoherent.
what does it matter if humans are evolutionarily carnivores, herbivores or omnivores? this question is directed at mes tarant and other poeple talking about this stuff. we are all enlightened enough and smart enough to make choices in our lives. we have the privilege of rational thought processes. we have a choice. if you choose to eat meat then fine, but why belittle someone else for making their choice.
robot butler, you seem like a really smart guy, and seeing as you eat veggie most of the time i'd be interested to know your thoughts on this stuff.
and finally, if we can turn a blind eye to the horrors of the meat industry, we can turn a blind eye to the cutting down of forests, we can ignore wars fought for oil, famine and poverty in the developing world caused by exploitation of these areas by other parties, we can not see the poverty and suffering on our doorsteps, we don't live next to people who take drugs and kill each other, we don't speak about it when people are raped, we don't see our neighbour's bruises after her husband beat her, the social worker will take care of the neglected child at our child's school, it's always someone else's problem or responsibility. we have to make the changes ourselves or there is no future for "civilisation".
Actually, yes it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by dweezil
Also, "for all I know", Rachel could have been drunk when she posted, just as you could have been.
Humans being omnivores doesn't hold up either... your asking me to prove something that hasnt been prove yet. Which most likely wont because of all the diffrent cultures in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot_Butler
You can come up with dumbaxx things like Lions eating such and such or vegans wanting to destroy humans or shix like that . But all your comments seems really personal , maybe because food is a luxury to you?
If you still pondering on why anyone would want to become a vegan than maybe this will help.
Example in U.S. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWmAJ...eature=related
Example in Japan ( where Im from) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uMSCwYrHwo
No one is forcing you to click the links , the same reason that no one force you to click this thread.
I agree that those videos are pretty disturbing. I don't really see the connection, however. That kind of animal abuse is already illegal, and if we need to, we can always come down with better regulation to combat stuff like that. I see those videos as a reason to do better, not to give up.
I know that meat processing is disgusting, but so is all mass food processing. I've heard the same kind of horror stories from my friends who used to work produce. You would be terrified at the things they do to your produce before it hits your table. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass when I say that I am disgusted at all food in general. Even my own garden grosses me out. I grow food in shit, garbage and worms. I raise my garden with love, then I have to tear it out by the roots and let it slowly die of dehydration in my vegetable drawer.
I just don't see an alternative. I'm not even convinced that buying organic is the way to go (although it is a step in the right direction). I've seen evidence that their farming practices can produce lower yield per acre, and leser quality food. Thats not good in a world where we're trying to figure out how to feed and find room to house our constantly rising population.
I feel like there is something I am missing. I think the pieces of information are all in my brain, but I'm not putting them together correctly to see the logical correlation between all this and avoiding animal products. I'm not trying to argue against it, I'm just trying to understand it :)
I was being a little facetious with the lion comment. I just don't think looking to a utopian "more natural" past is appropriate. The natural world is cruel. The natural world created us, and we are cruel. I agree that humanity is in a unique position. We can't ever forget that we are animals, created through the same processes that created the chickens we are eating. Our uniqueness lies in the fact that we can make conscious choices about what we want our species to be; which instincts we want to give into, and which we want to leave behind. We are really super omnivores. If we didn't have the proper teeth to eat vegetables, we would invent a machine to do it for us. We already do this kind of thing all the time, going through elaborate processes to extract nutrition from otherwise inedible materials.
Farming is getting really mess up , with companys like Mansanto and such. But still ... I couldnt support the killing of animals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot_Butler
Know what I find ironic... Well I'm a vegetarian, and I get my mum to buy all sorts of soya milk and Quorn products, but she won't try them at all. She says they're too weird or something. After all the crap they put in meat these days and all the fat you get in it and all that stuff, and then you get Quorn which isn't made out of animals, and my mum who eats all sorts of meat and weird stuff, won't even TRY quorn or anything like that!
I don't have a problem with people eating meat-it's a free country, but I think people should try and branch out and try different things. I have to say I barely knew what Soya milk was (and I drink this just because I prefer it to milk) before I became a veggie, and I had no idea about all the Quorn products and other veggie stuff you can buy. I think people should try it and they may like it and not have to eat meat so much. Like I said though it is a free country.
I find that ironic too. My dad did the same when I was a vegetarian teenager. My mum would cook nut roasts every so often, but if we were all eating something vegetarian he would insist on having meat mixed in with his serving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules2007
I am Vegan at the moment. I don't think its an eating disorder. I have heard veganism being called one because some people get obsessive about moral and healthy eating.
Anyway, my question. Where is the line in veganism for you? If for instance you are out on a long walk and the only food available has an e number you don't recognise, do you eat it? For instance. Also, whats wrong with honey? Isn't that relationship fairly symbiotic. I don't know much about farming.
Yeh, it's weird, I wish my mum would try it, I think she might like it, but she's tried Soya Milk and doesn't like it, that's about the only thing I've gotten her to try!Quote:
Originally Posted by apachama
Know what annoyed me, well I've considered myself a veggie for about 2 yrs, and I just realised a few weeks ago that fruit pastills (which I love!) have gelatine in them, was so annoyed! So I guess I can only say I've been a veggie for a few weeks?!
I would like an answer to that question too about where you draw the line. I thought about becoming a Vegan, but for me I think it's too complicated-that's for me personally. If someone made a Vegan store near me then it'd be a lot easier.
Also with the honey question, I know your question is for Ben, but I think the reason is because a lot of the bees get killed (trampled on etc) while the honey is collected- I'm sure I read that but I could be wrong. I'll leave that for Ben to ellaborate on. Also, I would think that because you are making a statement about not eating anything from an animal, you have to not eat honey either, regardless of the methods used in farming it.
Gelatine is a bastard. My general rule is to do the best I can. We all accidentally eat something with animal products in. The trick is to at least remember to check for it.
Yeh I know, I should've checked, I should know that all those kinda sweets have it in em! Ugh even if I wasn't a vegetarian, the thought of Gelatine in sweets is enough to put me off them anyway! Maybe one day they can make them without gelatine. I wonder who first came up with the idea- "hey, I know a great thing to put in sweets..."!Quote:
Originally Posted by apachama
I know a great thing to put in copper - cow bones.
WTF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Serkat
DING. This pretty much sums me up.Quote:
My general rule is to do the best I can. We all accidentally eat something with animal products in. The trick is to at least remember to check for it.
I can't really comment to veganism, but I've been a vegetarian for about 3.5 years now, and I'm quite a bit healthier than I ever was when I ate meat.
I agree that there are a lot of people who cut meat out of their diet that end up with issues of malnutrition, but there are plenty of people out there who eat meat that have terrible malnutrition issues as well.
It is true that some people who make the switch don't realize that their bodies need certain amounts of things to run at optimal efficiency. It's easy for some people to miss the fact that they can't necessarily just subtract the meat and eat what they used to, as many times those diets revolved around meat. But I wouldn't put the blame on vegetarianism, but rather on the way our current society almost totally ignores education about nutrition. Once we get past the food pyramid, education about "eating right" sort of stops. A vegetarian who is conscious of their nutritional needs can have a perfectly healthy diet. An excellent book/cook book on the matter is Laurel's Kitchen.
Personally, I just couldn't justify eating meat anymore, once I honestly examined my reasons for doing so. They mostly came down to "because I like it", and when I thought about it, it seemed pretty selfish. As I said, though, this was a personal decision.
I'm not one of those "in-your-face, preachy" vegetarians. I choose to eat what I eat, and if others are inspired to question their own diets by seeing my choices, I like that just fine. In general, most people seem to make a bigger deal of my vegetarianism than I do of their meat-filled diet. Some even seem honestly offended that I would dare commit the ultimate heresy of refusing meat. I've had more than my fair share of people arguing at me about why I should eat meat. How's that for your stereotype reversal?
One of the big things that I think people overlook in the meat/veg issue is that of energy shrinkage. It can take up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of edible animal flesh. Grain that could be eaten by people, I might add. Add this to the massive overproduction of meat-livestock in America (it's where I live, and thus what I know most about), and the ridiculous figures about how much meat/protein should be in the average American's diet, and that adds up to a lot of food that could have been.
I do have a question about veganism, though, and I assume that the answer varies from person to person. What's your stance on leavened bread?
Again, I'm no longer vegan (just had a great burger w/ mozz down the street), but was for 4+ years. I think it's safe to say few if any vegans concern themselves with yeasts. Many use brewer's yeast as a dietary supplement and flavoring element. In a vegan restaurant where I worked, we had zero qualms with making baguette as long as it wasn't Passover. At the same time, if you're used to relying on sliced bread (the worst invention since rifled barrels), you'll find most include animal ingredients like eggs or whey, not to mention undesirable elements like HFCS. While I was vegan, my diet at home shifted almost entirely to flatbreads, mostly lavash, and that's one thing that has stuck--I still prefer soya to cows' milk, and I still prefer flatbread to any plush loaf in an average grocery.Quote:
Originally Posted by H Savvy
If you're going to eat something as complex as plantlife, eukaryotes are pretty much fair game.
That's more or less my stance on it, but then again, I also eat honey.
Really? Wow. I need to research more than I have done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosaur
I buy my bread organic from the local bakers. I kind of assumed it would be safe. I guess I should ask.
This drives me crazy too. I go nuts trying to figure out the final energy cost of consumables. I do this every day at work trying to research green building materials. So many things you need to factor in, it gives me a headache. It is especially bad with recycled materials. Sometimes the energy cost to recycle something is worse than the initial cost of production. Wood and paper products often fall into this category.Quote:
Originally Posted by H Savvy
I've been a little out of the loop (pretty obvious, from all my posts in this thread :) ), why would HFCS be bad in bread? Has it ever been shown conclusively that the body processes HFCS any differently than any other sugars? Last I heard, they were still trying to figure it out, but were shown to be identical, given equal amounts. Or is it the process used to increase the fructose content? Or a political sugar-tariff-protest thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosaur
In regards to veganism, what is the main argument against eating eggs and milk? Is it the conditions under which they are harvested? An animal treatment thing?
I'm not entirely sure about the eggs, and I think that comes from the gross mistreatment of large amounts of the egg-producing poultry these days. As for milk, I believe it has to do with the question: "What do you do with the calf?"
The main argument is that animals should have equal rights to humans and shouldn't be used for anything at all, such as food, food production, fur, leather, as pets etc.
On the animal treatment side, the main arguments are:
Eggs: Every year hundreds of millions of male chickens have to be killed after birth because they don't lay eggs.
Milk: The cows are repeatedly artificially inseminated so that they constantly produce milk and the calves are taken from them after birth.
._.
No wonder I'm not a vegan.
I'll stick with just plain ol' vegetarianism, thanx
I'd like to ask the OP if he has any pets? If not, are you against people keeping animals as pets? I kinda wish we'd never domesticated animals sometimes, but there's not a lot we can do about it now I suppose.
That would be the proverbial tip of the iceberg, yes. In fact, in Germany that might be about the worst of it, as animal cruelty laws are in place and sometimes even enforced. When I lived in Columbus, OH, most of the grocery store eggs were coming from Buckeye Egg Farms, owned and operated by a gentleman who had been forbidden from working with animals in Germany because of practices which are standard in the industry over here. You can look up the details somewhere like http://www.mercyforanimals.org/ The gist is, you wouldn't want to eat something that came out of this environment regardless of your capacity for empathy. Egg layers get the worst of it, as they are not regulated either as animals or as food under U.S. law, but it's not much better for pigs and cows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serkat
Some people adopt a vegan diet from an absolute conviction that animals should not serve human ends, but for many it's more about the dystopian Rube Goldberg edifice we've erected to choke our veins with their flesh and effluents.
Ok, so its more the treatment of the animals. I agree that it iis pretty disgusting.
Nicely put. That pretty much sums up all of human civilization. I totally agree that it's all pretty ridiculous. I guess you pick your battles, but I can't see how the animal treatment is worse than our treatment of humans, or our mass farming of plants, or strip mining of coal. Maybe animals are just more likable than humans or plants. I can see how you need to draw the line somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosaur
But then again, I'm not really an idealist. I try to work with what we have. We made chickens and cows to do nothing but produce. I can't really see releasing them back into a natural habitat as being an option. We make cows and chickens, like we make any products. Like we make trees expressly to be cut down and turned into paper. We use biological processes, but I don't see how that makes it any different. What should we do, just stop making chickens? Wouldn't they just become extinct? These animals only exist because we made them in the first place.
I wouldn't say all of civilization is a "dystopian Rube Goldberg edifice." Where culture, including agriculture, develops from the ground up on the basis of artisans and craftspeople pursuing and passing on vocations in a manner that encourages regional diversity, it works pretty well. We have the systems we have because we deprioritized both food production and consumption for several generations and all but lost sight of the notion of vocation, instead pursuing any lucrative job in order to acquire more stuff. It's neither necessary nor inevitable that we live this way, and from my perspective it's not too desirable, either (granted I don't have an air-conditioned McMansion).Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot_Butler
I'm not categorically opposed to animal agriculture, and wasn't when I was vegan, but if you want it to nourish your culture rather than promoting violence and deadening empathy, it has to be pursued with respect for life. There is no reason for industrial agriculture to exist, certainly not on its present scale. You're not nourishing yourself by lusting after animal flesh to the point that you're obese and/or your heart is choking on animal fats, not to mention your rivers choking on shit. No, these animals would not exist in the these numbers if we weren't breeding them so relentlessly for their short stay in hell: that's the point. It doesn't serve us and it definitely doesn't serve them to invite billions of beings every year into these conditions so that we can eat poor quality meat, eggs and dairy in unhealthy quantities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot_Butler
I am vegie and was wonderin
you know them quorn sausages and meat you can buy.
Can you eat them?
:)
as a vegan? Or as a vegetarian?
Because no animals were killed to prepare Quorn, but they contain egg whites as a binding agent.
So, personally, I eat them. Vegans wouldn't.
Tofurkey is vegan, but also kinda gross and not nearly as good as Quorn stuff. Go mycoprotein!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by H Savvy
was wonderin if vegan folk can eat them :)
you answered my question thanks :)