Thread: Ask me about VEGANISM

seeds are really good for many things like fatty acids that are hard to find in vegan diets. hemp seeds are the best and are really nutritious. nuts are very good for us all, most nutritious if you leave them raw not roasted.
grains like quinoa, millet, bulghar wheat and barley are good alternatives to rice, pasta and potatoes.
raw leafy greens, spinach, chard, lettuce, sprouts and the like are very good for iron and when these are eaten, orange juice or another vitamin c combo should be consumed too, so that the iron can be easily assimilated into the body.
get her to try miso, seaweed, tofu, seed pate, hummous, falafel and really experiment with new foods.

some really good vegan cookbooks are;

How it all Vegan!: Irresistible Recipes for an Animal-Free Diet: Sarah Kramer, Tanya Barnard

Hot Damn and Hell Yeah! Recipies for Hungry Banditos and the Dirty South Vegan Cookbook: Ryan Splint, Vanessa Doe

Vegan Deli: Wholesome Ethnic Fast Food, Joanne Stepaniak

Originally Posted by dweezil

oh and whoever said that veganism is a form of protest is severely misguided. it's an ethical decision and about realising that meat is not a product to be taken off a shelf and consumed. it's so easy not to think about where your steak came from, to ignore that it was once a living thing that could feel every bit as much pain as we can, and to ignor the process by which it came to be on the supermarket shelf.
i have nothing but respect for people who kill their own animals and consume them and don't rely on a middleman to do it for them. that also makes people less wasteful of the animal and not so snobby about which parts of them they will or will not eat.

I think that is pretty respectable, but I still see it as a form of protest. If you don't like how animals are treated, then do something to change the system. Just refusing to buy or eat anything that has to do with animals won't do much except make your life a lot more difficult. I think limiting your diet is a selfish and self destructive response, because food is eaten for survival, social purposes, and enjoyment. There is a lot of mental baggage that comes along with eating. It is hardwired into our brains. Then again, I don't know what a better response would be, so I'm not much help

I hate modern corn farming practices (I really do, I'm not just saying this). I'm not going to stop eating every form of corn, stop driving because of the ethanol in my gas, and make sure every grain I eat has not been processed in a plant that also processes corn. Then I would have to expect food manufacturers to start labeling their food, "This food was processed in a plant that also processes corn." I expect gas stations to provide ethanol free gas. I can only eat at restaurants that serve corn-free food on the menu. I can't eat at friends houses, or family functions, because they cooked corn in their pans. Food is a very big part of life, and using it as a form of protest touches many aspects of your life, and the lives of those around you.

Just my opinion. I think veganism is a pretty extreme belief system, so I hope everyone is ok with me having an extreme response to it. If I'm offending anyone, I'll mind my own business

hey robot butler. the first boycott ever, happened here in the west of ireland in the late 1800's. led by charles stewart parnell, it was a community based response to the landlord, captain boycott (that's where the word came from). the community rallied together and refused to speak with him, buy anything from shops he owned, pay rent to him, deliver his post, serve hime in shops etc...the amazing thing is that it worked. if enough people care for each other, support each other and work together, anything can happen. boycotting the english government later helped ireland to gain autonomy from great britain. there have been many boycotts of coca cola and nestle across university student's unions world wide. these have eaten chunks of profit previously gained by these not so nice companies. many other groups working for community and social change have used this method effectively too.
i'm not saying that everybody should be vegan and boycott the meat industry, but boycotting as a form of protest does work and if more people do it change can occur, and it's a fucking amazing change, because it's brought about in such an beautiful inspiring way. if people want do do it on a personal level too then i think that's wonderful, because at the end of the day we all have to be able to face ourselves when we look in the mirror.

Good point. Maybe I'm the one placing the unhealthy over importance on food. For some reason, I categorize food differently from other goods. I wonder why I see a food boycott as self destructive and unhealthy, but I'm fine with anything else.

I guess the word hyppocrite fits nicely

I was also thinking about my own eating habits. I eat insanely healthy, and avoid certain kinds of food for health reasons. I'm ok with vegetarians saying, "I don't eat meat because I believe it is unhealthy." I eat vegetarian 90% of the time anyways. For some reason, I'm not ok with vegans avoiding all animal related products. Maybe it really is an ignorance issue on my part, and now I am just making excuses. I think I just don't understand the reasons behind it, because I've never known anyone with good reasons.

So, why would someone avoid all animal products altogether? Honestly, what are some good reasons?

yeah..i think the majority of people in the west see food as a luxury. it's not something to keep you alive and healthy, but something indulgent and pleasurable...much like smoking. one of the original reasons i decided to be veggie (no i'm not vegan) was to see if i had the discipline to actually do it. that was 11 years ago. since then i have learned a lot more and worked primarily in vegetarian/vegan/whole foods restaurants. i hear what you are saying about people with eating disorders using veganism/vegetarianism as an excuse to be anorexic, i've also seen a lot of that, but here are some good reasons to be vegan/veggie.

many people who eat meat can't cook. they are detached from food and consume processed, convenient junk foods high in salt and sugar. they also see it as being normal to consume gross fast food. if you become more selective about what you feed your body, you will feed it better. you're also forced to learn more about nutrition and learn to cook things from scratch that taste good.

if you wouldn't eat a dog/cat/goat/rat/guinea pig or whatever, then ask why you will allow yourself to eat an animal deemed to be "ok to eat" by someone else, and killed by someone else. why choose the convenience of removing yourself from the process? why not breed your own chickens or pigs. if people did this they would realise the work it takes to be able to eat and would equate eating with work, which is traditionally how it was, rather than equating making money with being able to eat. it's amazing to eat food that you have grown yourself even if it's only a lettuce or a few spring onions. such satisfaction.

if we all took back our own personal responsibility for food production, there would be less of a "food crisis" in the world at present. i believe that american supermarkets were recently rationing rice.

the agricultural land used in the world for farming animals would be more efficiently used to grow crops, though i don't think that industrial agriculture is that way forward.

battery farms for chickens are absolutely appalling. i keep chickens and they are so cool. they have individual personalities and characteristics. they are extremely sociable and enjoy human contact. watch the battery farm scene from the movie baraka.

animals are fed all sorts of hormones and shit to make them worth more money.
animals are fed the offal from other animals to reduce waste and save money. this makes for fucked up meat. brittish beef took a hammering in the 80's and 90's due to bse or mad cow disease. i dunno what other types of things have gone on, but i'd rather not partake of that stuff.

i spoke with a nutritionist before who told me that in her experience, women who had gone through breast cancer and recovered, were more likely to get the cancer again if they ate chicken that was not free range and organic, due to hormones fed to the hens.

jeez that's a lot of reasons. i hope that's enough! : )

hey i just read back and realised that i'd kind of addressed your point but in a very round about way. basically, by not buying into all of the rotten meat industry shit that goes on, vegans feel a little less hypocritical and ethical consumerism is important if we all can't be farmers and we live in a consumer society.

I don't have any vegan children, so I don't feel qualified to give out suggestions for nutrition advice if your daughter is often tired. :/

Have you checked out vegfamily.com? I wonder if they have some good info. The site is run by Erin Pavlina, both her and husband Steve are vegan and so are their children. Erins also written a cookbook for vegan families.

What about forums for vegan families - that might be another neat place to check out.

Oh yea - someone was posting that they thought veganism was on par with an eating disorder. While I don't think that's a fair statement to make (at all) I think I know where you're coming from - unfortunately vegetarianism and veganism can be used to mask an eating disorder, where a person (esp. someone young and not cooking their own food yet) can use it as a reason for not eating their entire meal b/c it's not all vegan. I personally haven't known anyone who I thought was vegan and had an eating disorder, but I think a lot of people -particularly teenage girls with eating disorders, might try to play the veggie card to hide the disorder.

Body builders use steroids. They are gross. Bad, bad examples of humanity in general, much less vegans.

Anyway I don't see this whole "it's bad to eat poor little animals" thing. We are omnivores by nature, man. We're not like lions who are only carnivores, we are not like giraffes who are only herbivores. We are omnivores. I don't see why an argument is even possible.

Originally Posted by Rachel

Hey Ben,
My daughter is vegan,but seems to be always tried. Any suggestions. She takes supplements, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
Thanks

She needs to go to a specialist. Every person's body is different, she needs to figure out what works for her as a unique being. Specialist! Go!

Mes Tarrant maybe this will help you , also please note that it hasn't been proven if humans are actually herivores or omnivores.

Humans are herbivores by anatomical and physiological design who have been inculcated (taught) to eat both flesh and plants in many societies of today.

Thus, though humans are 'cultural omnivores', eating flesh causes a number of diseases in humans that are not produced in natural omnivores or carnivores, such as atherosclerosis.

Also maybe this will help :

Facial Muscles
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed

Jaw Type
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion
CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
CARNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
CARNIVORE: Large
HERBIVORE: Small
OMNIVORE: Large
HUMAN: Small

Teeth: Incisors
CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth: Canines
CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HUMAN: Short and blunted

Teeth: Molars
CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach Type
CARNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
OMNIVORE: Simple
HUMAN: Simple

Stomach Acidity
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

Stomach Capacity
CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

Colon
CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HUMAN: Long, sacculated

Liver
CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidney
CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine

Nails
CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HUMAN: Flattened nails



"If you look at various characteristics of carnivores (meat-eaters) versus herbivores (non-meat eaters), it doesn't take a genius to see where humans compare"

Interesting. Could link me to the source of that data? Is the source still not good enough then to prove it one way or another?

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Interesting. Could link me to the source of that data? Is the source still not good enough then to prove it one way or another?

For what I just posted : wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_humans_omnivores_or_herbivores -

If you looking for more info you can check almost every site in the net. Also its a really debatable topic. I really suggest getting info. from both sides of the topic

Originally Posted by Halocuber

please note that it hasn't been proven if humans are actually herivores or omnivores.

this chicken salad sandwich says otherwise...

Why aren't vegans anti-human because our mere existance causes so much suffering to wildlife that we might as well userpe them to save them the pain anyway?

Originally Posted by Idolfan

Why aren't vegans anti-human because our mere existance causes so much suffering to wildlife that we might as well userpe them to save them the pain anyway?

That's the cause of the robot rebellion

Humans are their own worst enemy
their mere presence harms all creatures, including their fellow kin
for the good of the majority, humans must be removed

Originally Posted by Ynot

Humans are their own worst enemy
their mere presence harms all creatures, including their fellow kin
for the good of the majority, humans must be removed

Humans are the only hope for eventually creating a better place to live in. It took half a billion years of constant torment before we showed up and it may well take another half a billion years before the next civilisation shows up. All the animals don't really understand what's going on! We seem to be the only race that understands nature SUCKS. I stick my mighty middle finger up at nature because it dictates that we live lives of constant hunger and illness in nomadic tribes accompnied by half insane men and saggy boobs. It's DISGUSTING. That's the horrible reality of the cute little bunnies hopping around in the fields. I know you were probably just making a joke but I just want to make that perfectly clear anyway.

Originally Posted by Halocuber

Mes Tarrant maybe this will help you , also please note that it hasn't been proven if humans are actually herivores or omnivores.

Wow, that is completely 100% not true at all. My brother tried to make that argument for a couple years when he first went veggie. It just doesn't hold up.

Humans are the only hope for eventually creating a better place to live in. It took half a billion years of constant torment before we showed up and it may well take another half a billion years before the next civilisation shows up. All the animals don't really understand what's going on! We seem to be the only race that understands nature SUCKS.

I couldn't agree more. You think a pride of lions is sitting in the African Savannah right now discussing whether or not they should stop eating the zebras. I'm sure Simba is up on a soap box trying to convince Nala that eating a baby zebra's guts out while its still alive is cruel? It's time to come back to reality a little, people.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Wow, that is completely 100% not true at all. My brother tried to make that argument for a couple years when he first went veggie. It just doesn't hold up.



I couldn't agree more. You think a pride of lions is sitting in the African Savannah right now discussing whether or not they should stop eating the zebras. I'm sure Simba is up on a soap box trying to convince Nala that eating a baby zebra's guts out while its still alive is cruel? It's time to come back to reality a little, people.

Agreed on both counts.

(Plus.. that was.. a ... wiki .. article..)

If your daughter is tired and vegan, perhaps you should realize that veganism in non-adults is a form of pretty severe malnutrition.

Korittke, rachel never said how old her daughter is, so stop being so sanctimonious. for all you know her daughter could be in her 30's, and raising a child vegan is not going to produce a malnourished child. i know several "chunky" vegan children who are healthier than me and i am not vegan! take a look at all the kids raised on bullshit processed food who are then prescribed ritalin (speed) for add. if these kids weren't given soda and candy from the time they grow their first tooth they might just be ok. also look at diabetes levels of children with "normal" diets.

Idolfan, i have just one question for you; do you smoke crack? your point makes no sense, it had no relevance to this thread and is really incoherent.

what does it matter if humans are evolutionarily carnivores, herbivores or omnivores? this question is directed at mes tarant and other poeple talking about this stuff. we are all enlightened enough and smart enough to make choices in our lives. we have the privilege of rational thought processes. we have a choice. if you choose to eat meat then fine, but why belittle someone else for making their choice.

robot butler, you seem like a really smart guy, and seeing as you eat veggie most of the time i'd be interested to know your thoughts on this stuff.

and finally, if we can turn a blind eye to the horrors of the meat industry, we can turn a blind eye to the cutting down of forests, we can ignore wars fought for oil, famine and poverty in the developing world caused by exploitation of these areas by other parties, we can not see the poverty and suffering on our doorsteps, we don't live next to people who take drugs and kill each other, we don't speak about it when people are raped, we don't see our neighbour's bruises after her husband beat her, the social worker will take care of the neglected child at our child's school, it's always someone else's problem or responsibility. we have to make the changes ourselves or there is no future for "civilisation".

Originally Posted by dweezil

and raising a child vegan is not going to produce a malnourished child.

Actually, yes it is.

Also, "for all I know", Rachel could have been drunk when she posted, just as you could have been.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Wow, that is completely 100% not true at all. My brother tried to make that argument for a couple years when he first went veggie. It just doesn't hold up.



I couldn't agree more. You think a pride of lions is sitting in the African Savannah right now discussing whether or not they should stop eating the zebras. I'm sure Simba is up on a soap box trying to convince Nala that eating a baby zebra's guts out while its still alive is cruel? It's time to come back to reality a little, people.

Humans being omnivores doesn't hold up either... your asking me to prove something that hasnt been prove yet. Which most likely wont because of all the diffrent cultures in the world.

You can come up with dumbaxx things like Lions eating such and such or vegans wanting to destroy humans or shix like that . But all your comments seems really personal , maybe because food is a luxury to you?

If you still pondering on why anyone would want to become a vegan than maybe this will help.

Example in U.S. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWmAJ...eature=related

Example in Japan ( where Im from) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uMSCwYrHwo


No one is forcing you to click the links , the same reason that no one force you to click this thread.

I agree that those videos are pretty disturbing. I don't really see the connection, however. That kind of animal abuse is already illegal, and if we need to, we can always come down with better regulation to combat stuff like that. I see those videos as a reason to do better, not to give up.

I know that meat processing is disgusting, but so is all mass food processing. I've heard the same kind of horror stories from my friends who used to work produce. You would be terrified at the things they do to your produce before it hits your table. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass when I say that I am disgusted at all food in general. Even my own garden grosses me out. I grow food in shit, garbage and worms. I raise my garden with love, then I have to tear it out by the roots and let it slowly die of dehydration in my vegetable drawer.

I just don't see an alternative. I'm not even convinced that buying organic is the way to go (although it is a step in the right direction). I've seen evidence that their farming practices can produce lower yield per acre, and leser quality food. Thats not good in a world where we're trying to figure out how to feed and find room to house our constantly rising population.

I feel like there is something I am missing. I think the pieces of information are all in my brain, but I'm not putting them together correctly to see the logical correlation between all this and avoiding animal products. I'm not trying to argue against it, I'm just trying to understand it

I was being a little facetious with the lion comment. I just don't think looking to a utopian "more natural" past is appropriate. The natural world is cruel. The natural world created us, and we are cruel. I agree that humanity is in a unique position. We can't ever forget that we are animals, created through the same processes that created the chickens we are eating. Our uniqueness lies in the fact that we can make conscious choices about what we want our species to be; which instincts we want to give into, and which we want to leave behind. We are really super omnivores. If we didn't have the proper teeth to eat vegetables, we would invent a machine to do it for us. We already do this kind of thing all the time, going through elaborate processes to extract nutrition from otherwise inedible materials.