IMPORTANT: Nicotine Patch LDs

[ZenVortex]

Following my recent report that nicotine patches can produce stable, vivid LDs, I’ve done more research and find that a grower number of lucid dreamers are now using these patches. The evidence is that nicotine patches (NicoDerm CQ, Nicorette, Nicotrol, Commit, etc) are probably the most effective way of using psychoactive substances to enhance lucid dreaming. I myself haven't tried a nicotine patch but am seriously considering it. It seems that people who don't smoke get good results with the 7 mg patch, whereas people who smoke need stronger patches. The patch is probably best applied after a few hours of sleep, perhaps accompanied by ingesting a 5-HTP pill to facilitate returning to sleep. Here are some of the reports, starting with with Marc VanderKeere, the lucid dreaming guru who invented the WBTB method. Marc and I agree that when used judiciously, they can help people who are not natural lucid dreamers. Now read the reports and judge for yourself... ************************************* Normally, I have decent recall if I awaken gently and allow the dream fragments to surface and form a recollection of the previous night's adventures. On average, I remember two or three dreams per night with about ten to twenty of minutes of remembered time in the dreaming realm. While wearing the patch, I was remembering seven, eight and nine dreams with literally hours worth of elapsed experience. The entire night was experienced as one super long dream sequence with changing plotlines, scenes and characters. My recall was so complete that it literally felt as if I had been conscious the whole night. However, the dreams were not lucid ones. They were just massively intensified couple with some massively enhanced recall. After experiencing this dreaming turbo-boost, I tried to make sense of how this could be happening. More importantly, I wanted to find a way to recreate these effects without becoming dependent on a nicotine patch. Aside from being expensive at thirty-seven dollars for a box of fourteen patches with twenty-one milligram potency, nicotine like caffeine is not a vitamin. It is a drug that should not be regularly added to your system. By finding some kind of cause and effect, I hoped to find a more natural substitute. My guess was that the dreaming process was being energized by the added stimulation of nicotine. This stimulatory effect increases the circulation and this boost may serve as a catalyst for dream enhancement. ************************************* I have had great incredibly vivid dreams with the 21mg patch, but 7 and 14 don't seem to have the same effect on me. I DO however like your application of the "cocktail" during the W period. I've always tried the patch before bed, and then by morning I'm sweating... ************************************* If your mind is the dream engine, then I'd say the patch is like a supercharger. I always have longer, more vivid, more memorable dreams when I wear it, and also more false awakenings. ************************************* Nicotine for instance has a profound effect on my abillity to become lucid and this doesn't diminish with time. It's not that it actually causes lucidity, it simply creates a state of stimulated awareness which is very conducive to becoming lucid and greatly increases my chances. This effect seems to be enhanced even further when applying a patch only after waking during the night, and then using WILD. ************************************* For extra lucid dreaming fun, slap on a nicotine patch. It will blow your mind. I actually had a dream that was subtitled once. Some people were speaking Italian and I could understand what they were saying by "reading" the subtitles at the bottom of my view. Creepy bit is I don't know a word of Italian, so it obviously probably wasn't, but the whole concept blew my mind for a couple of weeks. ************************************* The only thing I have to look forward to now is lucid dreams. Maybe you don’t know this, but wearing the nicotine patch while you sleep causes major lucid dreams. I mean HARDCORE vivid shit. It’s awesome. ************************************* A nicotine-patch dream, the kind you can't pull yourself out of no matter how horrible, because it's too real. For six straight weeks now, recurring, nicotine enhanced dreams have shaken my world. I should consult with my doctor. I hope it doesn't come to that, but giving up three or more dreams each night, completely remembered and often lucid, will be tough. ************************************* I tried Calea Z last night in combination with a low strength nicotine patch. I did not wear my NovaDreamer, but I did awaken at one point briefly after about 4 hours of sleep, maybe for about 5 minutes. I did a reality check and found that I was indeed awake, and then fell back asleep. At this point, I had a WILD as soon as I closed my eyes. I was pretty startled at first, because I've only had 2 successful WILDs in the past and had pretty much given up on the technique. The ensuing LD was long, undistorted, and I had no trouble staying in the dream. I know it's hard to estimate the passage of time while in a dream, but I'd say I had a good 20 minutes in there, and I had such a good time that I woke up laughing. Being familiar with the dream-boosting effects of the patch, I'm thinking that the Calea Z worked synergistically with it, and allowed me to transition from awake to REM quickly enough to facilitate a WILD. I'm definitely going to try it again, perhaps also with some acetylcholine-enhancing supplements like DMAE and an AChEI. I've also recently tried this combination and I agree it really seems to boost lucid dream induction methods - espescially WILD. Both nicotine and Calea also make my dreams incredibly vivid and strange (even nightmarish sometimes), and even more so in combination. I also seem to get more false awakenings. I think that Calea and Nicotine are amazing catalysts to lucid dreaming, and if you use them with the SWBB method (and WILD of course) they are even better. ************************************* If you like dreaming and you have good dreams and like the whole "lucid dreaming" thing put on a nicotine patch before you go to sleep. You'll have longer dreams that you'll remember clearer. One word of warning it’s hard to snap your self out of a nightmare, like you normally could. ************************************* Any of the nicotine patches or lozenges will produce extremely vivid, 3-D, better than the movies type dreams for me. ************************************* I've had the most success with: nicotine patch - 7mg 5htp - 200mg huperzine a - 50mg All taken during the wake period of WBTB. I also take DMAE 260mg during the day before i go to work in the morning....i find it provides a better stimulatiing effect than caffiene, more of a gradual, background effect on alertness than a caffiene buzz, and no shakes or 'come downs' when it wears off. plus i hear antioxidants are good to take, and dmae is a strong one. with this combination my lucid dream frequency has risen significantly, although it is by no means a guarantee of course. ************************************************** ************************

[ShYne123]

hmmm...i dont have enough money to blow on stuff like that. Soon ill be getting a job...i dont drink alot...and i really have never smoked, i kinda feel convicted about wanted to try these things but if they help me get lucid, im seriously consitering them. First i want to be able to have them farily regularly w/o drugs.

[Unicorn]

Ha! People are now gonna be addicted to nicotine patches, how ironic!

[ShYne123]

yeah, i know right heh. Do you think if you just took them during the weekends it would be addicitng pysicaly? For instance, many people say that they just smoke ciggs once and a while and they are not addicted.

[ZenVortex]

Frankly, I don't think addiction to nicotine patches is a problem especially if you only use them a couple of times a week. Think about it. The typical addicted smoker goes through a pack or more a day. With a nicotine patch, the dose is much lower and you only one per day (at night). The other thing about smoking addiction is the oral gratification of putting something in your mouth (like sucking your thumb) and the gratification caused by smoking being a social activity. This means that a large part of smoking addiction is addiction to a behavioral habit. At any rate, I think a nicotine patch is okay two or three times a week.

[ShYne123]

So when you take it this substitutes b6/melation and stuff? You would just use this?

[ZenVortex]

My advice is to begin by using a nicotine patch without anything else. This should be done after a few hours of sleep. Reports indicate that if you use it at bedtime, it may keep you awake. So, if it causes insomnia, try ingesting melatonin or 5-HTP. As far as B6, it probably isn't necessary.

[O-Nieronaut]

just a side note: If you do smoke, and you decide to try this patch method, do not smoke while wearing the patch! It cas cause immediate heart failure! [/$0.02]

[bassv2]

Frankly, I don't think addiction to nicotine patches is a problem especially if you only use them a couple of times a week. Think about it. The typical addicted smoker goes through a pack or more a day. With a nicotine patch, the dose is much lower and you only one per day (at night). The other thing about smoking addiction is the oral gratification of putting something in your mouth (like sucking your thumb) and the gratification caused by smoking being a social activity. This means that a large part of smoking addiction is addiction to a behavioral habit. [/b] that's what smokers have all first said. and by generalizing, addiction is only if u smoke comple of backs every day, and the dose it lower, that are invallid. It's drugs, it's gets addictings. Most smokers didn't start couple packs a day, they started with 1 every day... 1 every weekk....

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by ShYne123 yeah, i know right heh. Do you think if you just took them during the weekends it would be addicitng pysicaly? For instance, many people say that they just smoke ciggs once and a while and they are not addicted. Some people do have a natural tolerance to nicotine and can limit their habit to a few cigerettes a day. But these people are in the minority. Also, severe chain smokers -- the people who use their last cigerette to light their next cigerette... needing only one match a day... these chain smokers are also something of a minority. Ordinarily, most smokers settle into a pack and a half of cigerettes a day. So, I can anticipate that while a few people might be able to use their patches only on weekends, that most people will find it necessary to use medium strength patches everyday, while a few people will need to esculate all the way to actual smoking once the Nicotine Demon is released.

[mongreloctopus]

i have to say that if you don't already smoke, it's really not worth the potential addiction for potentially inducing lucid dreams. we all know it's very possible to do it without chemicals, and nicotine/tobacco/cigarettes is too easily attainable and too addictive (psychologically as well--most people don't consider how "enjoyable" the act of smoking becomes) to play around with. tobacco is wacko.

[Leo Volont]

You know, perhaps any 'poison' delivered in a non-lethal dose would do as well. I suspect that a great deal of 'psychic energy' is released any time that a great many of the body's cells are wiped out. Anything that significantly debilitates the body may serve to intensify dreams. Take the phenomena of Near Death Experience as the most powerful and extreme of cases. Dying, or nearly dying, releases just about the ultimate amount of psychic energy -- people come back thinking that they saw God. So, who's for ingesting a small trial amount of rat poison for the sake of Science?

[ShYne123]

Thanks for advice, im accuily not going to try this..i woke up this morning and i had a very fun/long/vivd dream. Unfortunatily not lucid..but what can you do. Maby i just need more sleep. Im looking forward to this summer (hopefully i dont get a morning job) but if i do i can still take nice 2/3 hour naps during the day. I think this is my problem, im just to exausted during the week to wake up after my dreams. I accuily am going to go get tested for mono..i know many people that sleep at like midnight through 5, and they are fine. I have been going to bed at exactly 10 to 5 in morning and barily have any recall. Except for weekends when i get to sleep like 9hours, and i do WBTB. I sleep about 7hours a night, fall asleep in school (passout almost) But once im home and stimulating myself im fine. But i still fall asleep the second my head hits the pillow. (i slept 11hours lastnight, but i only recall one full dream(like 2pages), the other one i wrote down in like 5sentences)

[ZenVortex]

The risk/reward ratio of using a nicotine patch seems to be very small. Although I personally detest cigarettes, I am not going to let my prejudicial attitude toward cigarettes obscure the possibilities of LD induction using a nicotine patch. It just doesn't make sense that something that is used to CURE addiction would CAUSE addiction. Remember, almost anything you like doing can be addictive: coffee, chocolate, fast food, TV, music, relationships, etc. The bottom line is can you can stop doing whatever you like doing if it starts to get out of control? I don't mean giving it up for good. Just stop doing it for a few days to regulate it and bring it under control. If you have enough control to stop watching TV or drinking coffee or whatever you like doing for a few days, you shouldn't have any problem with a nicotine patch. Also, remember that nobody who has actually used a nicotine patch for LD induction has reported any tendency toward addiction -- or any other types of problems -- so I think the risk of addiction is nothing to be worried about.

[Thorz]

I stole a box of Nicoderm CQ patches today from wal-mart, going to bed now, I will report what I get. Please no discussion about me stealing them.

[Thorz]

Okay, here is my report on one nicotine patch, 23mg and i dont smoke. (VERY VIVID) After about 20-30 minutes after putting it on I started gettin a nicotine buzz then it turned to nausea, the nausea lasted for about 45 minutes then I eventually fell asleep which is probably around 11:00PM. I wake up at about 1:30AM with no recall of any dreams that have happened between that time, I layed in bed for about 45 minutes because I couldnt fall back asleep, I eventually did fall back asleep and woke up at about 5:45 to start my day, during that period I had some VERY vivid dreams, im really surprsied I didnt attain lucidity because it was so bizaare. I remember being in my driveway and I was looking at my truck and it seemd to be leaking something, I got up close to it and seen it was leaking out of a small rust spot, after plugging it for a while I noticed a shape coming out of the hole, then eventally a new plant organism was growing out of the rust spot, I stepped back and noticed it had started all over my truck will all differnt kinds of plants and colors, I looked in the neighbors yard and they had GIANT weird looking flowers leaning and waving towards my truck(very freaky) at this point I ran inside to tell my mom what was happening and before I got inside I looked back and everything was back to normal, I had alot of crazy stuff happen last night. Im really looking forward to this night (minus the nausea!)

[Howie]

The Tutorials of the Dream View's Forum Contain methods to induce lucid dreaming WITHOUT a controlled, outside substance. Just your mind! For those wishing for a clean alternative to induce LDs.

[ZenVortex]

Hi Howetzer: With due respect, don't start preaching about how anybody can induce LDs and that "it's all within you". I am a professional research scientist and have studied lucid dreaming since 1979, and have reached the conclusion that the bottom line is brain chemistry. Specifically, most people can't dream lucidly on a consistent basis for the simple reason that they don't have enough neurotransmitters in their sleeping brain to support consciousness during their dreams. The bottom line is this. No matter how much you practice WILD, MILD, DILD, VILD, FILD, or whatever method you use, lucidity won't occur unless a threshold level of neurotransmitters is present. No matter how fast your automobile is, you ain't goin' nowhere unless there's gas in the tank. THAT, amigo, is why psychoactive substances can be helpful to many people, probably the majority of people who try lucid dreaming. Good luck with your quest.

[The Blue Meanie]

Originally posted by ZenVortex Hi Howetzer: With due respect, don't start preaching about how anybody can induce LDs and that "it's all within you". I am a professional research scientist and have studied lucid dreaming since 1979, and have reached the conclusion that the bottom line is brain chemistry. Specifically, most people can't dream lucidly on a consistent basis for the simple reason that they don't have enough neurotransmitters in their sleeping brain to support consciousness during their dreams. Hi ZenVortex: With due respect, if anyone, it's YOU who's preaching here. After your lengthy spiel about the use of psychoactive substances to induce/aid lucid dreaming, all Howetzer does is make one simple, NEUTRAL comment about the use of already widely accepted methods of inducing lucid dreams without the use of psychoactive substances, and you label THAT as preaching? No. Originally posted by ZenVortex The bottom line is this. No matter how much you practice WILD, MILD, DILD, VILD, FILD, or whatever method you use, lucidity won't occur unless a threshold level of neurotransmitters is present. No matter how fast your automobile is, you ain't goin' nowhere unless there's gas in the tank. THAT, amigo, is why psychoactive substances can be helpful to many people, probably the majority of people who try lucid dreaming. Good luck with your quest. Psychoactive substances be helpful? Yep, sure, I accept that, though I would say in the long term, they may do more to impede LDing than aid. As for lucidity and neurotransmitters and lucidity, forgiving the rather pedestrian automobile analogy for the moment, to say that some people cannot have lucid dreams without the aid of psychoactive substances because "they don't have enough neurotransmitters in their sleeping brain to support consciousness during their dreams" is a totally unsubstantiated claim. I can accept that some people, because of their naturally lower level of neurotransmitters may make lucidity in dreams less likely or harder to achieve, although it should be noted the actual EXTENT of this is pretty damn near impossible to prove, due to the host of other factors which are just as impossible to eliminate. But to claim that some people simply cannot lucid dream is dubious at best.

[Howie]

Originally posted by ZenVortex Hi Howetzer: With due respect, don't start preaching about how anybody can induce LDs and that "it's all within you". I am a professional research scientist and have studied lucid dreaming since 1979, and have reached the conclusion that the bottom line is brain chemistry. Specifically, most people can't dream lucidly on a consistent basis for the simple reason that they don't have enough neurotransmitters in their sleeping brain to support consciousness during their dreams. The bottom line is this. No matter how much you practice WILD, MILD, DILD, VILD, FILD, or whatever method you use, lucidity won't occur unless a threshold level of neurotransmitters is present. No matter how fast your automobile is, you ain't going' nowhere unless there's gas in the tank. THAT, amigo, is why psychoactive substances can be helpful to many people, probably the majority of people who try lucid dreaming. Good luck with your quest. I completely understand the scientific points that you make. What I don't understand is your logic behind using it. That does not change the fact that your bottom line is introducing people to a habit forming chemical which can develop very quickly. Is that worth a lucid dream? As a professional research scientist, you can surly see the down side to your implications. Originally posted by The Blue Meanie As for lucidity and neurotransmitters and lucidity, forgiving the rather pedestrian automobile analogy for the moment, to say that some people cannot have lucid dreams without the aid of psychoactive substances because "they don't have enough neurotransmitters in their sleeping brain to support consciousness during their dreams" is a totally unsubstantiated claim. I can accept that some people, because of their naturally lower level of neurotransmitters may make lucidity in dreams less likely or harder to achieve, although it should be noted the actual EXTENT of this is pretty damn near impossible to prove, due to the host of other factors which are just as impossible to eliminate. But to claim that some people simply cannot lucid dream is dubious at best. And thank you in regards to the preaching comment.

[Placebo]

It may or may not be true that neurotransmitters are going to hold an individual back, but I agree with Howetzer that a lucid dream can't be worth getting a chemical addiction. Surely? Besides, might there not be the possibility of biofeedback ? I'm unsure if it extends into the realm of altering your neural chemistry, but it can at least alter the frequency and state of mind at will. Addictive chemicals seem like an incredibly dangerous way to go.

[ZenVortex]

What I am saying is that the JUDICIOUS use of psychoactive substances may be helpful to many people. Not going off the deep end and getting addicted to them. For example, it's perfectly okay to drink a glass or two of wine every day, and this level of use is not going to turn you into an alcoholic !!! Same goes for fast food. It's okay to eat a burger and fries from time to time, but if you find you are becoming addicted and obese, you need to stop. The important thing is to stay in control and not get carried away. Now let's examine some facts: 1) There are many people who are "natural" lucid dreamers. They either dream lucidly all the time or have frequent lucid dreams without any special training. I have personally known several of these people including my wife, son, and several friends. 2) What I have observed over the years is that females of all ages tend to lucid dream more easily than males. Young people of all ages tend to lucid dream more easily than old people. People who fantasize or day-dream a lot tend to lucid dream more easily than people who don't. People who meditate tend to lucid dream more easily than people who don't. What this means is that a major factor in lucid dreaming is brain chemistry, specifically the presence of various neutrotransmitters in the sleeping brain. People who are "natural" lucid dreamers MUST have neurotransmitters in their sleeping brains that are at a level where they are conscious or are just below that level. Conversely, people who are not "natural" lucid dreamers must have lower levels of neurotransmitters and hence find it more difficult to reach the level needed for consciousness. WBTB is a classic example of using a technique to stimulate the brain and raise the level of neurotransmitters so that when it returns to sleep, it is at or just below the threshold of consciousness. Another possibility is to introduce neurotransmitters into the sleeping brain by the JUDICIOUS (!!!) use of psychoactive substances such as B6, huperzine, galantamine, DMAE, choline, nicotine etc. By themselves, these substances may not induce lucidity, but they raise the baseline so that the threshold of consciousness is easier to reach. Hope this makes sense. Of course, training is important for people who don't have much of a "natural" talent. But I would encourage people who are not having much success with lucid dreaming to "put some gas in the tank" by experimenting with the various psychoactive substances that are safe, legal, and readily available. Obviously, if you are concerned about becoming addicated to something, don't use it, or make sure you keep it tightly under control if you do. Just like drinking alcohol or eating fast food. If you find you are craving it, stop doing it for a while and get it under control. (Duh!!!)

[The Blue Meanie]

Originally posted by ZenVortex What I am saying is that the JUDICIOUS use of psychoactive substances may be helpful to many people. Not going off the deep end and getting addicted to them. For example, it's perfectly okay to drink a glass or two of wine every day, and this level of use is not going to turn you into an alcoholic !!! Same goes for fast food. It's okay to eat a burger and fries from time to time, but if you find you are becoming addicted and obese, you need to stop. The important thing is to stay in control and not get carried away. Sorry, these are bad analogies. The difference between nicotine, and fast food/alcohol, is that the former is physiologically addictive, while the latter two are only psychologically adictive. VERY different situations. What this means is that a major factor in lucid dreaming is brain chemistry, specifically the presence of various neutrotransmitters in the sleeping brain. People who are "natural" lucid dreamers MUST have neurotransmitters in their sleeping brains that are at a level where they are conscious or are just below that level. Conversely, people who are not "natural" lucid dreamers must have lower levels of neurotransmitters and hence find it more difficult to reach the level needed for consciousness.[/b] I do not think that it is appropriate to make this conclusion without any evidence. Alternatively, "Natural" lucid dreamers may very well be able to LD naturally not because of a higher number of neurotransmitters, but RATHER, because of a lower "threshold" for consciousness during sleep. If this is the case, then there is a good argument to be made that with practice, non-naturals can "lower" this threshold. Thus, the actual number of neurotransmitters one "naturally" has may besomewhat less important thanthe "threashold", which may be able to be lowered without use of psychoactive substances. I would argue that "pracice" and psychoactive substances attack LD-ing from two different angles: practice likely lowers the threshold of neurotransmitters needed, while psychoactive substances increase the number of neurotransmitters, making it easier to "pass" the threshold. If this is the case, your earlier "automobile without gas" analogy is misleading. WBTB is a classic example of using a technique to stimulate the brain and raise the level of neurotransmitters so that when it returns to sleep, it is at or just below the threshold of consciousness. [/b] I am not so sure on this point, but I believe your interpretation of WBTB may be incorrect. Alternatively, it my be a method no so much of raising the number of neurotransmitters, but instead, of lowering the threshold required. Obviously, if you are concerned about becoming addicated to something, don't use it, or make sure you keep it tightly under control if you do. Just like drinking alcohol or eating fast food. If you find you are craving it, stop doing it for a while and get it under control. (Duh!!!)[/b] You make this sound a hell of a lot easier than it actually is. Again, alcohol and fast food are NOT legitimate analogies... nicotine is psychologically addictive, and a WHOLLY different situation. Since you claim to be a research scientist (presumably in the field of psychology), I find your simplistic view on addiction somewhat astounding, to say the least.

[mongreloctopus]

Sorry, these are bad analogies. The difference between nicotine, and fast food/alcohol, is that the former is physiologically addictive, while the latter two are only psychologically adictive. VERY different situations. [/b] that's not entirely true. nicotine is chemically addictive, alcohol is chemically addictive, sugars and fats are chemically addictive. in fact, pretty much anything in consistent, large doses is chemically addictive (either that or fatal). as for neurotransmitters being required for lucid dreaming...i don't know if i believe that. everyone dreams. everyone CAN be aware of his surroundings. i'd think when the two are combined lucid dreaming occurs. however, i do believe it's possible to have a difficult time honestly dedicating enough time and effort to this endeavor, thus failing, and writing it off as a predisposition to non-lucidity. it may be harder for some than others...but impossible for some? i think that's unlikely.

[onemoretime]

Hey, just want to jump in here, does anyone know off hand which systems of neurotransmitters experience shifts in levels of expression during dreams/sleeping/unconsciousness etc.? Is there a global depression of all types of neurotransmitters while sleeping, or are specific types predominantly affected? I'll google it as well, but can anyone recommend any books/papers about the subject? edit: oops, nm, just found this in the tutorial section. But the last question still stands.