Thread: My Biggie Problemo.

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

*Very deep sigh*

I've been attempting to lucid dream for 8 months now. How many lucid dreams have I had? Err, I think over 10. But those were all just dreams where I knew I was dreaming, but I still wasnt there "realtime", everything was third person, and I definately did NOT have any control.

Now, just for the record, about normal dreaming. I'm confused. For me, normal dreaming is just going to sleep, waking up 2 sec later with hopefully "memories" printed in my mind that I recognise as dreams. It's not like I have actually experienced them when they actually happened, they are .. well, memories.
I've talked to a lot of people, and some say they have the same as me, and some people say they experience their dreams when they actually happen, as if it were waking life, except they don't know they're dreaming and thus recognise pink monsters and flying elephants as common everyday things. They still experience it like, well, a lucid dream with full control, except for the knowing youre dreaming part. For me, it's like having watched a movie.
So question 1: Which of the two (or maybe you have something else? Tell me) is it for you? How do you experience normal dreams?

So, as I said, my lucid dreams.. I knew I was dreaming so they were LDs, but I did not have any control, I followed the flow of the dream, I wasn't there realtime.. It's like an ND, except I did stuff like flying. I did not experience it like waking life or anything: being there.

I've done reality checks. Hell yeah. If I got lucid it was because of reality checks. I'm guessing that method works best for me. Still, I did not gain "true" lucidity; being there realtime, I mean. As I do not control myself and it is just a memory and like, someone else is in control, I cant do "more" reality checks unless my dream self decides to.

Question 2: How do I get more control? Attain lucidity with actual control? Even just being there and having a LITTLE control is fine, but I want to consciously stabilize my dream, etc.

I've attempted WILD a couple of times but I always lose consciousness. I never even came close to HI, I did have a falling sensation once, but I did WILD without having slept first so I knew on forehand I was going to fail that WILD.

Help meeeeee.
[/b]

I would think if you needed more control you should be closer to awake then sleep. I would really concentrate for at least a couple of months on waking up around 4AM, do a small task then go back
to bed, and focus on the HI's. Keep doing this unitl you start noticing the HI's, after a while you can enter the dream from those images, well rested already with more control. If not, try using some lucid induction files and do daytime WILDS or at least naps!

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

everything was third person,[/b]

Are you one of those people who dreams in third person (watching yourself doing things, that is)? I've heard of that, but personally I've never experienced a dream in third person. Anyway, I've talked to one person in real life who also dreams in third person, he says he's had lucid dreams in third person. He says he could still control his actions and stuff, even though he was "watching himself" do it. I can't really comprehend that, to be honest. But the point is that being in third person view and being lucid are NOT mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

and I definately did NOT have any control.[/b]

That sucks and all, but really, that has nothing to do with whether or not you were "lucid" in the dream. Being lucid merely means that you are aware that you are in a dream. Here's a direct quote from the Dream Views page entitled What is Lucid Dreaming: "If, by chance, during a dream it suddenly dawns on you that you are dreaming, then you have experienced a lucid dream, regardless of whether you have been able to attain control of your dream."

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

Now, just for the record, about normal dreaming. I'm confused. For me, normal dreaming is just going to sleep, waking up 2 sec later with hopefully "memories" printed in my mind that I recognise as dreams. It's not like I have actually experienced them when they actually happened, they are .. well, memories.
I've talked to a lot of people, and some say they have the same as me, and some people say they experience their dreams when they actually happen, as if it were waking life, except they don't know they're dreaming and thus recognise pink monsters and flying elephants as common everyday things. They still experience it like, well, a lucid dream with full control, except for the knowing youre dreaming part. For me, it's like having watched a movie.
So question 1: Which of the two (or maybe you have something else? Tell me) is it for you? How do you experience normal dreams?

So, as I said, my lucid dreams.. I knew I was dreaming so they were LDs, but I did not have any control, I followed the flow of the dream, I wasn't there realtime.. It's like an ND, except I did stuff like flying. I did not experience it like waking life or anything: being there.

I've done reality checks. Hell yeah. If I got lucid it was because of reality checks. I'm guessing that method works best for me. Still, I did not gain "true" lucidity; being there realtime, I mean. As I do not control myself and it is just a memory and like, someone else is in control, I cant do "more" reality checks unless my dream self decides to.[/b]

This "problem" is really only a matter of the quality of your dream memories. For nearly everyone, dream memories are considerably more vague and unstable (prone to being forgotten) than waking memories. They are as you describe. They seem so vague that you can barely even consider yourself as having experienced them... like they just "appeared" in your memory. Here's the thing that some people don't realize: memories from a lucid dream are the same way! They are typically hazy, vague, etc... just like normal dreams. (At least, for most people they are... not everybody though, the lucky bastards. Check out this thread: Lucid Dreams versus "real" (non-dream) Memories) This is, unfortunately, just the nature of dream recall. It doesn't mean that you didn't actually experience those things. Because you did. It's really the same as when you try to recall memories from your childhood. You can recall them, but the memories are so distant and vague that you can hardly believe that you actually experienced them once. It's hard to believe that at one time, that experience was "right now." But it was. Try it right now... try to remember something from when you were in 3rd grade. You'll find the memory to be quite dream-like. However, you know that it "really happened."

So you see, the only "problem" is that your expectations are a bit too high. The way you have been experiencing them is, unfortunately, the way it is. I only have 2 suggestions...
--The next time you become lucid in a dream, try thinking "out loud" to yourself, and reflect on the fact that you really are experiencing all of this in the here-and-now. For instance, "I am lucidly dreaming right now. I know that I will be awake later, but as for right now, I am dreaming. The floor feels solid beneath my feet, even though I know I am really asleep in my bed. I see (whatever is around you), even though I know I am really asleep in my bed. I am experiencing all of this right now." The idea here is that in the morning you will be able to remember not only what happened in the lucid dream, but also what you were thinking in the lucid dream. It will probably make the memory of the experience seem significantly more "real."
--The other suggestion is to practice WILD some more. I think that a seamless, fully-conscious transition from wakefulness to dreaming would be just what the doctor ordered for you .

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

Question 2: How do I get more control? Attain lucidity with actual control?[/b]

The eternal question. Second only to "Was this a lucid dream?!" Anyway, the eternal answer is: practice. You will get better at exerting dream control through experience. However, there are lots of tips. Most of them center around being creative in causing your desired effect. Examples:
--Want to fly, but can't? Try manifesting a jet pack, or a magic carpet. Or try growing wings.
--Want to make someone appear before you? Try calling out their name and asking them to come to you.
--Can't seem to give yourself super speed or strength? Try manifesting some "super strength" pills. Or perhaps try to imagine that rather than you speeding up, the world around you is slowing down.
--Manifest a magic wand. You'll be amazed what you can do with it!
--Can't seem to manifest an object? Approach a DC and ask them to give you one. Or try purchasing one in a store.
--Verbals commands are often very helpful when visualization alone just won't quite cut it. "On the other side of that door is (wherever). When I talk through that door, I will be in (wherever)."

Here's a good read for you: BillyBob_001's guide, My Perspective On Dreams (and How To You Can Be A God)

Hope all this has been an eye-opener for you

Originally Posted by phoenelai

I would think if you needed more control you should be closer to awake then sleep. I would really concentrate for at least a couple of months on waking up around 4AM, do a small task then go back
to bed, and focus on the HI's. Keep doing this unitl you start noticing the HI's, after a while you can enter the dream from those images, well rested already with more control. If not, try using some lucid induction files and do daytime WILDS or at least naps!
[/b]

You guys seem to get it wrong, I dont want MORE control, I just want SOME control and "be there" the time it happens. My dreams arn't like waking life experiences, it's more like... They never happened, but I can still recall a memory.

Originally Posted by phoenelai

Are you one of those people who dreams in third person (watching yourself doing things, that is)? I've heard of that, but personally I've never experienced a dream in third person. Anyway, I've talked to one person in real life who also dreams in third person, he says he's had lucid dreams in third person. He says he could still control his actions and stuff, even though he was "watching himself" do it. I can't really comprehend that, to be honest. But the point is that being in third person view and being lucid are NOT mutually exclusive.[/b]

Err, yeah, sorta? But as I said above, my dreams arn't waking life experiences (or so they feel), it's like they never happened. I'll give an example: I just sat on the toilet. I have that as a memory but when I actually sat on the toilet, I was actually on the toilet. Dúh? The difference with my dreams is, I have my dreams as a memory, but I was not actually there when they happened. You know what I'm saying?

That sucks and all, but really, that has nothing to do with whether or not you were "lucid" in the dream. Being lucid merely means that you are aware that you are in a dream. Here's a direct quote from the Dream Views page entitled What is Lucid Dreaming: "If, by chance, during a dream it suddenly dawns on you that you are dreaming, then you have experienced a lucid dream, regardless of whether you have been able to attain control of your dream."[/b]

I know, I think I said that in post 1. I have had lucidity, but no controlled lucid dreams etc.

This "problem" is really only a matter of the quality of your dream memories. For nearly everyone, dream memories are considerably more vague and unstable (prone to being forgotten) than waking memories. They are as you describe. They seem so vague that you can barely even consider yourself as having experienced them... like they just "appeared" in your memory. Here's the thing that some people don't realize: memories from a lucid dream are the same way! They are typically hazy, vague, etc... just like normal dreams. (At least, for most people they are... not everybody though, the lucky bastards. Check out this thread: Lucid Dreams versus "real" (non-dream) Memories) This is, unfortunately, just the nature of dream recall. It doesn't mean that you didn't actually experience those things. Because you did. It's really the same as when you try to recall memories from your childhood. You can recall them, but the memories are so distant and vague that you can hardly believe that you actually experienced them once. It's hard to believe that at one time, that experience was "right now." But it was. Try it right now... try to remember something from when you were in 3rd grade. You'll find the memory to be quite dream-like. However, you know that it "really happened."[/b]

I know. But the difference between waking life experience recalls and dream recalls is that when the event actually occured, I was there in waking life, but I was not actually there in the dream when it occured.

So you see, the only "problem" is that your expectations are a bit too high. The way you have been experiencing them is, unfortunately, the way it is. I only have 2 suggestions...
--The next time you become lucid in a dream, try thinking "out loud" to yourself, and reflect on the fact that you really are experiencing all of this in the here-and-now. For instance, "I am lucidly dreaming right now. I know that I will be awake later, but as for right now, I am dreaming. The floor feels solid beneath my feet, even though I know I am really asleep in my bed. I see (whatever is around you), even though I know I am really asleep in my bed. I am experiencing all of this right now." The idea here is that in the morning you will be able to remember not only what happened in the lucid dream, but also what you were thinking in the lucid dream. It will probably make the memory of the experience seem significantly more "real."[/b]

You see, I can't. I think you misunderstood me, because the way I've been experiencing it is not the only way it is; I seem to dream differently than most people. Check my comments on the other quotes. And thus, I can not actually say those things in a lucid dream, as I am not actually there the moment it happens.\

--The other suggestion is to practice WILD some more. I think that a seamless, fully-conscious transition from wakefulness to dreaming would be just what the doctor ordered for you .[/b]

Bingo. That's what I've been thinking.

The eternal question. Second only to "Was this a lucid dream?!" Anyway, the eternal answer is: practice. You will get better at exerting dream control through experience. However, there are lots of tips. Most of them center around being creative in causing your desired effect. Examples:
--Want to fly, but can't? Try manifesting a jet pack, or a magic carpet. Or try growing wings.
--Want to make someone appear before you? Try calling out their name and asking them to come to you.
--Can't seem to give yourself super speed or strength? Try manifesting some "super strength" pills. Or perhaps try to imagine that rather than you speeding up, the world around you is slowing down.
--Manifest a magic wand. You'll be amazed what you can do with it!
--Can't seem to manifest an object? Approach a DC and ask them to give you one. Or try purchasing one in a store.
--Verbals commands are often very helpful when visualization alone just won't quite cut it. "On the other side of that door is (wherever). When I talk through that door, I will be in (wherever)."[/b]

Control like THAT is not an issue, I more meant control as in actually being there... See comments to all the quotes above XD

Here's a good read for you: BillyBob_001's guide, My Perspective On Dreams (and How To You Can Be A God)[/b]

I'll read it but as you misunderstood me, I doubt for now it'll do me any good.

Hope all this has been an eye-opener for you [/b]

You did somewhat help me but you misunderstood me mostly so ... ;P

So question 1: Which of the two (or maybe you have something else? Tell me) is it for you? How do you experience normal dreams?[/b]

Hmmmm, I definitely know what you mean by the way that dreams are only memories, no recollection of being in there... that is always what it feels like when I only remember a flash of a dream. BUT... When I remember a full dream, I can remember being there, and doing this and that. As people have said before, dreams are different to everyone. My friends find their dreams to be a bit hazy, not as clear as real life. My dreams on the other hand.... I cannot tell the difference! (I am proud of that&#33

Oh, and your 3rd person thing.... strange. My dreams are always first person, except for once when the dream zoomed out and I looked over the whole dreamscape!

Question 2: How do I get more control? Attain lucidity with actual control? Even just being there and having a LITTLE control is fine, but I want to consciously stabilize my dream, etc. [/b]

Yes, it's harder for you. Maybe you should program or tell your mind that you want first person dreams? OR daydream about having first person, and it will pass onto your dreams. Once you get first person, try yelling and shouting and stepping on the cat's tail (awww, poor cat), and you shoulod gain control as quickly as the cat bites you.

Hope this helps! -Stoat

At least someone understands, kekeke.

Yeah, I will try doing the programming thing. Thanks.

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

I just want SOME control and "be there" the time it happens. My dreams arn't like waking life experiences, it's more like... They never happened, but I can still recall a memory. [/b]

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

But as I said above, my dreams arn't waking life experiences (or so they feel), it's like they never happened. I'll give an example: I just sat on the toilet. I have that as a memory but when I actually sat on the toilet, I was actually on the toilet. Dúh? The difference with my dreams is, I have my dreams as a memory, but I was not actually there when they happened. You know what I'm saying?[/b]

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

But the difference between waking life experience recalls and dream recalls is that when the event actually occured, I was there in waking life, but I was not actually there in the dream when it occured.[/b]

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

I seem to dream differently than most people. Check my comments on the other quotes. And thus, I can not actually say those things in a lucid dream, as I am not actually there the moment it happens.\[/b]

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

Control like THAT is not an issue, I more meant control as in actually being there...[/b]

I understand what you're saying, as I understood before. I usually experience dreams the same way (usually but not always). And we're not alone, did you read that first thread that I linked to? Did you even read my post at all, or did you just quote it? My entire point is this: yes, it feels like you weren't "really there" when it happened. Why does it feel like this? Because this is how dream memories feel. Why do dreams feel like this? My theory is that it's simply because the memories are so much more distant and vague than waking memories (although I really can't say exactly why). So in response to you "not being there"... you were there, and you did experience it- it is only in hindsight it feels like you didn't. Consider the possibility that it is merely a matter of perception.

Also, I think you missed my point on comparing your dream memories to waking memories. The memory of you having "just sat on the toilet" is quite different from the kind of memory I suggested recalling: a distant memory from your childhood. Set aside what you think you know about the experiences (I "know" I was there in the waking memory, I "know" that I wasn't there in the dream memory) and just focus non-judgementally on how you perceive the memory. Now compare that to how you perceive one of your dream memories. You'll notice they feel quite similar. Now, what's the point of this comparison? The point is so you can see that that feeling you are experiencing with dream memories, that feeling (and it's a feeling, not solid knowledge like you keep stating) of having not actually been there as it happened, can even happen to your waking memories. It's how memories begin to feel as they become progressively more distant and vague. Your dreams just get a big head-start on the process . Another example: compare dream memories to waking memories where you were really drunk (really drunk, not "5 beers drunk"). Unless you haven't been that drunk (like on the verge of blacking out), in which case just ignore this example .

So in summary: You ARE experiencing your dreams in real-time, the moment they happen, just like your waking life, it is only that the quality of your dream memories makes it seem like you aren't. It is simply a matter of perception. Or do you believe that you are "different" from everyone else, and your mind just fabricates memories to deposit into your memory banks every night?

Sorry if any of this came off as hostile, it's not meant as a personal attack, I'm just trying to make you see .

Edit: BTW, you didn't really answer me, so you do dream in third person? I couldn't tell if you meant that literally or if you just meant it was "like" third person because you didn't really feel in control of your actions, I was kind of assuming the latter. If you're having lucid dreams in third person view, man, I don't know what to say Seems kind of hard to wrap my mind around that. I'm not really qualified to be giving out advice in those particular cases :\.

Originally Posted by SinofEnvy

Now, just for the record, about normal dreaming. I'm confused. For me, normal dreaming is just going to sleep, waking up 2 sec later with hopefully "memories" printed in my mind that I recognise as dreams. It's not like I have actually experienced them when they actually happened, they are .. well, memories. [/b]

It seems to me that's the problem here. You can't change or influence memories, so if your dreams are like memories, it is natural that you would have no control. What you need to try is to get into the dream. Now, I think I understand what you are talking about a bit, because I sometimes have a similar experience, yet not to this extreme. In dreams, I generally only am able to do things I really thought about and 'rehearsed' during my waking hours. If I really want to have control, like complete a lucid task which requires me to transform the entire dream, I will have to think of that goal consciously before going to sleep. It's not really possible for me to sit down, and think about what would be a fun thing to do. It somehow has to be immediate, and things I've not properly thought about or told myself to do, I just can't remember or think of. Now, that taken to the extreme, means to can't really think of anything inside your dream because the ideas just don't pop up, and you just go with the flow. If this sounds familiar or plausible to you, please tell me so I know I'm on the right track.
What you can do about it... Well, I 'rehearse'. Rehearsing is just really thinking about something that you want to do, just making it be in the active section of your mind, ready to be recalled at any time. For example, if you wanted to complete this month's lucid task, you'd have to really tell yourself that you are going to jump off a cliff in a dream. You have to focus on remembering that.

My advice would be, to pick something really simple to do in a dream, and just be persistent about wanting to do it. For example, try jumping. Remind yourself to jump in a dream every time you go to sleep, and eventually you will succeed. You can then, after succesfully having controlled your own actions, use that for a basis for other things.
And also, like what has already been said, maybe WILD is the thing for you. I'd definitly continue trying it.

Originally Posted by DuB

I understand what you're saying, as I understood before. I usually experience dreams the same way (usually but not always). And we're not alone, did you read that first thread that I linked to? Did you even read my post at all, or did you just quote it? My entire point is this: yes, it feels like you weren't "really there" when it happened. Why does it feel like this? Because this is how dream memories feel. Why do dreams feel like this? My theory is that it's simply because the memories are so much more distant and vague than waking memories (although I really can't say exactly why). So in response to you "not being there"... you were there, and you did experience it- it is only in hindsight it feels like you didn't. Consider the possibility that it is merely a matter of perception.

Also, I think you missed my point on comparing your dream memories to waking memories. The memory of you having "just sat on the toilet" is quite different from the kind of memory I suggested recalling: a distant memory from your childhood. Set aside what you think you know about the experiences (I "know" I was there in the waking memory, I "know" that I wasn't there in the dream memory) and just focus non-judgementally on how you perceive the memory. Now compare that to how you perceive one of your dream memories. You'll notice they feel quite similar. Now, what's the point of this comparison? The point is so you can see that that feeling you are experiencing with dream memories, that feeling (and it's a feeling, not solid knowledge like you keep stating) of having not actually been there as it happened, can even happen to your waking memories. It's how memories begin to feel as they become progressively more distant and vague. Your dreams just get a big head-start on the process . Another example: compare dream memories to waking memories where you were really drunk (really drunk, not "5 beers drunk"). Unless you haven't been that drunk (like on the verge of blacking out), in which case just ignore this example .

So in summary: You ARE experiencing your dreams in real-time, the moment they happen, just like your waking life, it is only that the quality of your dream memories makes it seem like you aren't. It is simply a matter of perception. Or do you believe that you are "different" from everyone else, and your mind just fabricates memories to deposit into your memory banks every night?

Sorry if any of this came off as hostile, it's not meant as a personal attack, I'm just trying to make you see .

Edit: BTW, you didn't really answer me, so you do dream in third person? I couldn't tell if you meant that literally or if you just meant it was "like" third person because you didn't really feel in control of your actions, I was kind of assuming the latter. If you're having lucid dreams in third person view, man, I don't know what to say Seems kind of hard to wrap my mind around that. I'm not really qualified to be giving out advice in those particular cases :\.
[/b]

You made my day. In that first post, it sounded like you didnt understand, you do now (or you always did, but to me you do now XD). Yes, I do dream in third person MOSTLY. I have had some dreams in first person.
I see them third person as well.
After your post, I no longer "believe" Im different, and my knowledge (which is a feeling) is wrong. Man, I love you. You really helped me explaining my situation to me while I had to explain it to you in the first place. So what about those lucid dreams I've had where it was the exact same? I feel like on the moment itself, I am not there as I am right here now in waking life typing this message. Thus, I have no control. So how do I change that perception?

...It never came off as hostile one second.

Originally Posted by DuB

It seems to me that's the problem here. You can't change or influence memories, so if your dreams are like memories, it is natural that you would have no control. What you need to try is to get into the dream.
[/b]

This is the interesting part of the post: How would I get into the dream? Yes, WILD seems to be the way. But for NDs..?

Like I said, try to do something really simple in the dream. Once you can control something, it might come naturally.

Well for now I'll focus on some WILDs ^_^ Maybe in the LD autosuggest all my LDs will be like that, "being there", seeing autosuggestions are MUCH stronger when performed in an LD.