Gogic or Pompic?

[Dirtbiker_CRF]

Hey guys, i've been gone for a while but ive had an idea.... So i reacently wilded in the morning for the second time. I woke up early, didn't move, and just...slipped...into a lucid dream where i threw fire at me brother. Anyway, i can never wild with WBTB, or when i first go to bed, buts its really easy in the morning if i don't move, so i was wondering, which is easier for you....Hypnogogic (night time) Wilding, of Hypnopompic (morning) Wilding?

[SKA]

Hypnagigia is the hallucinatory state we enter as we are about to fall asleep. The Hypnopompic state is one we enter as we are about to wake up. This is what I read on wikipedia once.

[pj]

Whatever you want to call it, I've had the most success with morning WILDs. They usually work best once I've had a lucid that night by some other means. Once that's happened, I can often have repeated WILDs in the morning, just by focusing on HI and holding onto a thread of consciousness.

[SKA]

Whatever you want to call it, I've had the most success with morning WILDs. They usually work best once I've had a lucid that night by some other means. Once that's happened, I can often have repeated WILDs in the morning, just by focusing on HI and holding onto a thread of consciousness.[/b] I've been progressing very deeply into a state of Hypnagogia(at night) where I've seen the most Realistic, interactive and 3D Dreamimages. However as soon as I became fully aware of them they fell apart into darkness and simple hypnagogia again. I could sure use some help getiing further into these pre-Dreams. That thread of consciousness you hold onto. Can you tell me a little more specifically how exactly you pull it of and what excactly it is you do?

[pj]

I could sure use some help getiing further into these pre-Dreams. That thread of consciousness you hold onto. Can you tell me a little more specifically how exactly you pull it of and what excactly it is you do?[/b] I'll try! First, it isn't something I can always do, but when I'm "in the zone," it's easy. I've been looking at those circumstances that seem favorable to it, which I've identified mostly as mornings after I've already had an LD or two. I have never once pulled this off right on going to bed at night - but I have a couple times during mid-day naps. When it works, it goes like this; I concentrate as intensely as possible on the HI. For me, it starts out as blobby lights and patterns, which then start resolving into 2d images, and from there into 3d images. Once the 3d stuff starts, I have to be careful, because if I "hold on" too tight the same thing happens to me that you experience. So right at that point, I have to allow myself to "lose it" - briefly. I don't know how else to explain this. When it works right, I then find myself fully in the dream - and immediately remembering that I'm dreaming. The trick then is to establish my "dream body" and then start interacting. That's one of my WILD experiences. A very different one has me laying there without HI - concentrating on my body and the sensations as it goes to sleep. When this works, it results in an experience that could easily be confused with an OBE... I literally get up out of my sleeping body in the same room and go into dreamland from there. (I've done the tests for OBE and they always fail.) I can exercise typical lucid control in these dreams. Is this helpful at all? Ask anything you wish, I'll try to answer.

[SKA]

I'll try! First, it isn't something I can always do, but when I'm "in the zone," it's easy. I've been looking at those circumstances that seem favorable to it, which I've identified mostly as mornings after I've already had an LD or two. I have never once pulled this off right on going to bed at night - but I have a couple times during mid-day naps. When it works, it goes like this; I concentrate as intensely as possible on the HI. For me, it starts out as blobby lights and patterns, which then start resolving into 2d images, and from there into 3d images. Once the 3d stuff starts, I have to be careful, because if I "hold on" too tight the same thing happens to me that you experience. So right at that point, I have to allow myself to "lose it" - briefly. I don't know how else to explain this. When it works right, I then find myself fully in the dream - and immediately remembering that I'm dreaming. The trick then is to establish my "dream body" and then start interacting. That's one of my WILD experiences. A very different one has me laying there without HI - concentrating on my body and the sensations as it goes to sleep. When this works, it results in an experience that could easily be confused with an OBE... I literally get up out of my sleeping body in the same room and go into dreamland from there. (I've done the tests for OBE and they always fail.) I can exercise typical lucid control in these dreams. Is this helpful at all? Ask anything you wish, I'll try to answer.[/b] Very Interresting. By "Losing it"I assume you mean you Stop trying to forcefully concentrate and allow your Mind to run chaotic and random on the waves of hypnagogia and then, shortly after that, you catch your awareness again and find that in the meanwhile, while you lost it, you have ended up in a fully immersive Dream so to speak?

[slimslowslider]

Like PJ I find I often have LDs in the morning after a dream, especially an LD. I wake briefly then go back into the dream, usually just by trying to remember the dream or revisting the last scene. I had six 'chained' LDs like this last month when I did the advanced task. Is this WBTB, WILD, or DEILD or... whatever? The important bit was the DILD - the first one - that started the chain, the other five were effortless. But I still can't figure how to make DILDs happen - daytime RCs don't really work for me. A general questioning of reality and attempts to improve my WL perceptual awareness may be helping, but who knows? Occasionaly various 'suggestions to self', intentions and placebos work. Keeping a dream diary is the only method that really ups the frequency for me. Regarding WILD. I've had most success during the day. During the night I just want to sleep (and dream)! Unless chaining is a kind of WILD, in which case I would say 'during the night immediately after waking from a dream'.

[pj]

Very Interresting. By "Losing it"I assume you mean you Stop trying to forcefully concentrate and allow your Mind to run chaotic and random on the waves of hypnagogia and then, shortly after that, you catch your awareness again and find that in the meanwhile, while you lost it, you have ended up in a fully immersive Dream so to speak?[/b] Yes - exactly. It&#39;s sort of like letting yourself fall - and you might well not regain consciousness. You hold out until things really start solidifying, then just let it all go at that point - because if you don&#39;t, you&#39;ll just keep waking yourself up. When conditions are right, regaining consciousness once you are immersed is easy. Again, the "conditions" are the catch here - when I can do it, I can do it repeatedly. When I can&#39;t I&#39;ll just fall asleep. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(slimslowslider)</div> I had six &#39;chained&#39; LDs like this last month when I did the advanced task. Is this WBTB, WILD, or DEILD or... whatever? The important bit was the DILD - the first one - that started the chain, the other five were effortless.[/b] I think what you are describing is DEILD. It certainly doesn&#39;t seem to be WILD.

[slimslowslider]

Yes prolly... although I was awake enough to remember the previous dream, I even opened my eyes and turned my pillow over on one occassion (I like the cold side&#33 How long do you have to be awake, or how wide-, before its not DEILD but WBTB/ WILD? Am I getting pedantic - or is there an important distinction?

[pj]

Yes prolly... although I was awake enough to remember the previous dream, I even opened my eyes and turned my pillow over on one occassion (I like the cold side&#33 How long do you have to be awake, or how wide-, before its not DEILD but WBTB/ WILD? Am I getting pedantic - or is there an important distinction?[/b] I'm certainly no expert. I may be wrong about that acronym - but you are clearly (it seems to me) using a dream re-entry method. WILD involves an awareness of the whole process of falling asleep while maintaining consciousness. I guess this is the distinction I was making. On afterthought, I think there are several (at least) "flavors" of WILD.

[slimslowslider]

I guess there's three basic main types then: DILD (asleep) WILD (awake) re-entry (half asleep) all the other methods are variations of the above? Plus I guess there's a set of methods that rely on assistance from machines or drugs etc. Now I'm jsut stating the obvious rather than being pedantic! And wandering of topic........................

[Raylin]

There are really only two: DILD and WILD. All methods fit into one of these two categories, depending on whether they rely on you becoming lucid within a dream (DILD) or waking up and going straight from wake to a lucid dream (WILD). The majority of techniques are DILD.

[slimslowslider]

Perhaps, but I'm not sure. Can we point to a definite line between asleep and awake? There's all manner of different states of consciousness, trance and so on, that are neither awake nor asleep. Many of the methods are about altering this state. I would also say that most of the methods seem to fall into the WILD category - Well... I can't think of any that aren't.

[Raylin]

MILD, for one. Reality check based lucids are always DILDs too. Then there are techniques that rely on auto-suggestion, most of which are DILDs. WILD only applies to techniques where you go to sleep consciously, if you will, and go straight into a dream lucid. What half-asleep techniques would you say there are? I'm not sure how we're defining it.

[slimslowslider]

Yes, I'm wrong. Thinking aloud, a bad habit! WILD = Wake Initiated Lucid Dreaming As Wake Induced Lucid Dreaming, it would be 'things done during the day to try to make a LD more likely' - which would encompass ALL the techniques. That's what I was trying to say - and its not very profound! Half-asleep methods? I would include dream re-entry/ chaining methods i.e. those started whilst semi-awake. But its hard to say. THere are some methods that are not really WILD or DILD. What happens to the mind during a lucid dream? You are neither awake nor asleep, but its not half-asleep either - light sleep? But its not that either - you can be in light sleep, or daydreaming without being lucid.

[Dirtbiker_CRF]

Well i would call what i did a WILD. I woke up, knew i was awake, but i didn't move. I just layed there, closed my eyes, and watched the colours. First is was a white light in the middle. It came bigger/Closer, closer, closer, until it washed over me, and on the other side, there was the dream, straight into it, and always knowing that i was dreaming. The weird thing was, this dream started as a cartoon. Like the ones you see on the internet, i was a mouse. Eventually, i gave myself a body, and it turned into real life like clarity. Anyway, i would call this a WILD.

[Raylin]

Ah, I understand what you mean now by semi-conscious methods. Still, I generally count dream re-entry methods as either DILD or WILD. If you re-enter a dream and then realise it's a dream, I consider it DILD, or if you re-enter a dream lucidly, I consider it WILD. Most re-entry techniques I know of are DILD by that definition, as they rely on the increased consciousness of just having been awake to allow you enough logical thinking to realise it's a dream. As for what state our mind is in when we lucid dream, that will require a lot of laboratory research, though I imagine a lot has been done already. There would probably be increased brain activity in certain areas (those linked to conscious, high-level thought perhaps?) though I really don't know enough about this to say.