Thread: Kromoh's VILD

I will try this tomorrow morning and tell you my results. It sounds easy enough.

hmmm sounds VERY easy. I'll try it too. I've been avoiding WILDs because of the difficulty.

A very good way to go around VILDing Kromoh. I give this tech an A+ star for it's ability to work.

I disagree, however with some of the reasons that you give for why it works (or course, it doesn't really change the tech at all, it's all to the same end)

I'm putting it in a spoiler tag so that people who don't really care can just skip over and continue with the thread. Understanding it may bring VILDs more easily or it make make them nigh impossible =P

Spoiler for stuff:

The biggest factor in a VILD is the idea of conceptual thought. Conceptual thought is basically just thought that uses concepts as they appear in your head. That is, the mental schemata, connections drawn from memories, visual attributes, sounds often associated with it... etc.

So, the first thing I disagree with is that those images are the ever evasive "subconscious thoughts". I agree more with Freud's model of consciousness(consciousness, preconscious and unconsciousness) using this, these are simply memories that are just lying below the surface or, using the model of conceptual thought, you can say that they are concepts that we can easily access in full. You see, it is very difficult to consciously bring concepts to your conscious mind simply because you have nothing to grasp when searching for that concept. You can observe this by looking at the "subconscious thoughts" that you have right now. Other then a general feeling, how do you recognize that they are even there? That is the conceptual side of things, my friend =)

Now, for the VILD, your goal is an environment made of pure conceptual thought. Understandably, this can be slightly difficult considering how fleeting it is. Of course, through the "subconscious thoughts" (concepts in our preconscious layer) we can sow the seeds that are necessary to propagate more concepts and thus have the world form around you (all concepts are inter-related though the mental connections that you have made (best described as your "mental schemata") and thus, if you are thinking "boat" then soon you will also have the concept of an ocean because that's what the boat must be in.

I think your tech is much better then my own bloated one. =P Mine tried to instigate conceptual thought by having you imagine up as many attributes of an object as possible then hope that it would form into a recognizable concept along the way. It didn't work too well for most people =P

So, the way that you master the VILD is by learning to access conceptual thought on a whim. It is not picture-based thinking, it is not word based thinking, those come second. If you think of some thing using pictures, first you picture it to be that way, then it is. If you use concepts, it is that way then you get the picture. =O

Sorry if I'm thread hijacking at all... it's all relevant and I always love getting stuff like this off my chest =P

One very interesting thing that I noticed is that you used a boat as an example. I find this very interesting as that is the example that ALWAYS comes to my mind when trying to explain something like this. Even more notable, it is the same example that laberge uses in EWLD when he touches upon this subject. VERY intriguing.

I'd also like to add that recent dreams (especially the ones you woke up from) are VERY good reservoirs to pull from if you are to do this at DEILD time.

Very good thread. I expect many people to be successful

Heh, this sounds really cool. I'll try it first thing tomorrow, literally.

Well, I tried to do it but my mom kept on coming in my room and making a ton of noise. I will try again tomorrow maybe.

Very well written tutorial!

Thank you Kromoh!

BTW: IF I have not recalled one false awakening for the last year, do you tkink it still could happen?

I often re-enter my dream everytime i hit my sleep timer. I just never remember to do a reality check i guess. When i get back to the dream i just forget that i was awake until the next alarm.

Very nice technique, you were talking to me and exhalent about this in the chat yesterday. Thanks, I'll try it.

well, I tried. I think I got close though. I was imagining imagining myself jumping on my bike, even though I've never really jumped very high in real life. Also, does it matter if I think in first or third person?

Will try again tonight.

Originally Posted by maniakalBycikle

well, I tried. I think I got close though. I was imagining imagining myself jumping on my bike, even though I've never really jumped very high in real life. Also, does it matter if I think in first or third person?

Just do what your mind tells you. Don't fight what your mind creates. If at one night you can only see in 1st person, then so be it. But if in another night, 3rd person is what it gets, then so be it.

I find that usually I have more 3rd person view if I focus on a game image, and 1st perso nif I focus on some physical activity.

ok, thx.

Just remembered that my mind kept wandering and I would fall asleep, so tonight I'll stay more focused on the action.

Kromoh, what do you do for work? You are very articulate!

I will try this in the morning tomorrow and report back! Thanks for the guide!

Originally Posted by Arthurium

Kromoh, what do you do for work? You are very articulate!

Last year of high school Intent to study medicine though.

Haha best of luck ^^

Damn Kromoh, I never see much of you outta the senseless banter forum. So I gotta say, I'm impressed!

And can you clarify the whole repetitive/continuous part. I don't quite understand.

Originally Posted by RockNRoller123

Damn Kromoh, I never see much of you outta the senseless banter forum. So I gotta say, I'm impressed!

And can you clarify the whole repetitive/continuous part. I don't quite understand.

He means that you need something that will last long enough to create a dream scene from. If your seed thought is something like an explosion, it won't turn out so great. The explosion goes for about a second then you're left with nothing (assuming, of course that you didn't propagate a war scene or something from it). If you had a ship though, you could walk around and explore it and generally step into a stable dream quite easily and quickly.

Oh, thanks. I think I get it, but could you give one more example.

Well I'm going to try mountain biking on a trail. The trail could last forever and the flow and movement of the trail would be my "feel."

I don't know if this is a good example for someone who doesn't bike a lot.

Originally Posted by maniakalBycikle

Well I'm going to try mountain biking on a trail. The trail could last forever and the flow and movement of the trail would be my "feel."

I don't know if this is a good example for someone who doesn't bike a lot.

Yeah, a trail, tunnel, road.... All work really well. I'll give a lil example from experience. Back when I was playing the Prince of Persia series, I had all the wall jumping ,wall running, jumping, swinging etc. moves stuck in my head. Thus, I VILDed with those. I started in a bland stone corridor and began running down it. Soon enough, I got to a spike pit which I cleared with ease. Next was a longer pit. I ran on the wall to clear it. The corridor was seemingly endless (until I reached the end and the dream went on a tangent) and so it's the sort of thing that can last for as long as you need to transition fully to the dream state.

Another such VILD I've done was in a spacecraft navigating through an endless tunnel with a large focus on g forces and hairpin turns. It was pretty fun till I crashed =)

Oh! Thanks man, I totally get it.

Originally Posted by RockNRoller123

Damn Kromoh, I never see much of you outta the senseless banter forum. So I gotta say, I'm impressed!

And can you clarify the whole repetitive/continuous part. I don't quite understand.

Haha thanks ^^

The repetitive/continuous thought is supposed to be that way to let it develop without conscious effort; something that, when you think off, just won't get out of your head that easily. Something that doesn't require conscious effort to go on and on. Yes, you could pick a less steady image, and it would probably change a lot before forming a dream. It would take far more time, and that is not what we aim for.

Arby explained it really well. Especially his examples.

Alright. I thought I understood...


...Turns out I'm a douchebag.

I have a BUNCH of questions. I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, I just think there's great potential in your technique.
-Should I be on my back?
-Should I not move?
-How Long should this take?
-Me little mind still can't grasp the visualizing part. Can you help?

Originally Posted by RockNRoller123

Alright. I thought I understood...


...Turns out I'm a douchebag.

I have a BUNCH of questions. I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, I just think there's great potential in your technique.

Haha no problem.

-Should I be on my back?
Whatever you feel like at that moment. When you wake up, you shouldn't even bother about getting into the right position or whatever. Just do what your body tells you. This is generally the same position you woke up into.
-Should I not move?
Hmm, yes in a way. What happens here is that the dreamy image will encompass you fully, making you even forget a bit you have a body. If you're worried about moving your body in the process, then it means you're too awake for it.
-How Long should this take?
What takes time is in the beggining, when you keep visualising the scene you want and wait for your mind to get it. I suggest also visualising a vividness-enhancing technique, such as focusing on an object to see each detail of it.
Once your mind takes off with the visualising process, you won't even feel time passing: you won't be awake enough for it.
-Me little mind still can't grasp the visualizing part. Can you help?
You should do it like this. Lets suppose you'll visualise yourself walking down an endless road. When you start the visualising, things will be very dim, and you will only barely imagine yourself moving down a continuous path in a very unclear way. This process will be slowly incorporated into your less conscious mind, and at soem point it will require no conscious effort to make that scene go on and on - so just watch it passively. Then, you will continue to walk on and on down that road, during which the images around you become a bit clearer, and the feel of your legs moving starts to show. (Notice how the image won't be of you walking forever: your mind may pretty much imagine you falling down, taking another road, finding an acquaintance, and so on. Don't fight this, just let your mind do it.). After some time into that visualising trance the dreamy image will be cohesive enough, and you may start to feel your dream body moving instead of your motionless physical body. This is a very subtle change: when you least expect, you'll be moving your arms and actually feel them move, though actually your physical body never moved at all. When you are able to feel your whole body moving, then you may assume the dream is steady enough for you to take control of it. A Reality Check is very important, but also some vividness-enhancing technique (such as spinning, diving into cold water etc) may prove useful to stabilise the dream.

I guess that's it. If the doubt persists, do go on: I'm willing to explain it all in a different way

Yeah, don't fight direction/scenery changes. Not only does fighting them hurt the dream but that unpredictability makes the dream more interesting.

Of course, if you feel that you should choose what to do at any moment, go ahead. The dream isn't the only thing that should be doing things. If you want an analogy, it's like you and your mind are dancing the tango and your mind is the lead dancer. Choose your steps to follow his and try not to drag your feet too much =) But if you decide to add your own bit of flair, it shouldn't mess up the dance.

Example time now =P

I'm walking down the road of an empty old western-like town. It's broad daylight and nobody's around. In front of me is what looks like a dark puddle I step forward into it and it turns out to actually be some sort of hole/portal. As I "fall" gravity shifts so that as I'm horizontal, gravity is sideways so that I'm standing on the edge of the hole then as come around, I'm back up the other side in the same street except it's all dark and I'm standing on the "underside" of the street that I was in before. First reaction: "Sure, why not?" and I keep on walking. The rest of the dream was composed of me using these portals to flip between some sort of parallel worlds and escape danger =O

Learn to just take everything that happens pretty much at face value =P Without forgetting that it's a dream, of course.