I get partial sleep paralysis and I cannot get to full SP.
The whole tingly numbness feeling ya know?
Any Tips of getting into full SP, I have tried deep breathing.
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I get partial sleep paralysis and I cannot get to full SP.
The whole tingly numbness feeling ya know?
Any Tips of getting into full SP, I have tried deep breathing.
You are not alone. The question remains. If really the feeling of full paralysis is needed to enter LD. :D
You don't need SP. SP is a red herring; read What Every Lucid Dreamer Should Know About Sleep Paralysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duka30
If you want to WILD, go and read some real WILD guides, like
http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=62282 or
http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=30783.
Seems on that link tho that anything from partial relaxation onwards can be classified as SP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
I don't agree.
Assuming you are referring to the first link, that was an attempt to be descriptive with respect to current usage in the LD community. The only justified use of the term "sleep paralysis" is of course in the sense of a disorder.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamChaser
Seems like I need to be conscious and have my body fall asleep at the same time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Actually .. The only thing you need is to remain aware. Nature will do the rest for you :D
I have tried that multiple times...Quote:
Originally Posted by adraw
All i get is a tingly sensation, hard to move but I can still do so, and I know what is going on around me.
SP never seems to come.
Thor I would have one question... That would be... How do YOU percieve your experiences, when you are performing WILD? What would interest me is the transformation of wakeful into dream state >> Thanx for response.
Post 666! Oh, and maybe just let yourself fall asleep at that point? Make it a trance-MILD?Quote:
Originally Posted by adraw
Suggestion:Quote:
Originally Posted by Duka30
Start at the beginning and use MILD and DILD induction.
You will get more LDs and not get so frustrated.
Go back to WILDs after a few LDs from these methods.
Thats the point... You and me... We are doing something unnatural. We are interrupting natural processes. In other words. We are using hammer to repair broken watch... We need to get more subtle. And that takes time to learn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duka30
Try this too:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=69535
: / No luck with that yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamChaser
ok...Adraw..will leave it with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duka30
I have been reading some of your threads Adraw, and it seems like we have more in common about this subject than I expected...
I will try some of your techniques :]
It's highly variable. Sometimes I just plunge directly from the waking state into the dream in a matter of seconds, usually after a brief awakening. These are my most successful WILDs. In these cases I have absolutely no other experience than the dream itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by adraw
Other times I get all the textbook auditory, tactile, kinesthetic, vestibular (but rarely visual) hypnagogic hallucinations. Typically roaring sounds, electrocution, acceleration, vibration. These sometimes, but not always, lead into a dream.
With respect to the supposed "sleep paralysis" I occasionally get the "lead blanket" feeling reported by many. I have tested several times but never found myself unable to move, so at least in my own case this is not a state of paralysis.
As long as you dont take what I write as techniques, you are welcome. I have to remind you ... My WILD count is zero. I have some experiences with SP, i have done some visualizations and really nice chats about what WILDs really are. But thats it. Take it just as my {improving} view on some LD related subject :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Duka30
Thats really interesting. What I would be really interest in would be the state when you move from fully awake to more inward focused state. Becouse according to my predictions {and partially observations} there has to be some awareness change..My questions would be:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
1. Is this awareness change always appearant?
2. If so... Is that change spanned over larger interval or does it come in one point in time?
You know what i mean. .... Really the bodily sensations are not of much importance to me. The body simply gets numb... But the mind.. How does it get more ... How to say it... Dreamy?
And one more think. Could you please give some constructive feedback on this?:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=69628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
No. Thor is is quite wrong in this.
Evidence is provided in Thors linked thread.
I'm getting a bit tired of the old "dude..if you can move you're not in sleep paralysis" chat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Sleep paralysis simply does not just refer to the "HAG" condition (Which is know as Isolated Sleep Paralysis).
Anyone ever woken up from a dream, and found themselves able to move instantly. That's because that is exactly what the body is designed to do. This suggests that it is therefore quite possible to be in "sleep paralysis" and break out of it by wanting to.
It's really hard to describe. I'm not really sure there is a change in awareness. Like you said first, it's more a change of focus from your own thoughts to hallucinatory experience. For me this change occurs rapidly and without any effort on my part. In fact, I have never WILDed intentionally. I often use galantamine or nicotine to induce DILDs, and all my WILDs have occurred accidentally while waiting to fall asleep to have a DILD. This makes me believe that the state most conducive to WILDing is characterized by passive awareness. This is completely in line with what BillyBob says in his WILD guide: if you're thinking too much you're sabotaging your chances of having a WILD.Quote:
Originally Posted by adraw
Yes, bodily sensations are just a distraction. The warning about thinking too much applies also to thinking about bodily sensations.Quote:
You know what i mean. .... Really the bodily sensations are not of much importance to me. The body simply gets numb...
If you can move whenever you want to there's no reason to assume that you had muscle atonia in the first place. Since you're making the claim that this is sleep paralysis rather than relaxation, it's up to you to provide the documentation for this claim.Quote:
Anyone ever woken up from a dream, and found themselves able to move instantly. That's because that is exactly what the body is designed to do. This suggests that it is therefore quite possible to be in "sleep paralysis" and break out of it by wanting to.
This really cought my attention. According to what I read from your post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=67910
Awake state:
Brain chemistry is modulated by norepinephrine and serotonin
You perceive the world through your senses and control your physical body
REM sleep:
Brain chemistry is modulated by choline
Perceptions are internally generated and you control your dream body. Sensory input is by no means impossible in REM sleep, but the threshold is higher than in the other states.
Our brain chemistry is changing. Well doesnt that have some big implications at awareness? Just guessing. That would need deeper study. I know. Modulation is just some kind of altering existing processes, not change to the main metabolic processes. Still. It could have some implications on awareness itself. :D. As i am not eruded in this kind of research. I would better ask one more question if you dont mind:
"For me this change occurs rapidly and without any effort on my part"
If you can. Could you please go into more detail?
Eh?! When you feel the wave come over you, the vibrations, the sounds etc, thats a pretty good indication that your in Sleep Paralysis (Rem Atonia).Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
I would agree that the lead blanked is not SP, but it is probably a part of the progression to SP.
What I don't like is the simplistic argument "if you can move you weren't in SP".
You do like to ask others to "provide documentation".
Yet you yourself are all to happy to fly in the face of any evidence or a general consensus, offering little more evidence than a statement that you are right.
I'm not an expert on brain chemistry, so I don't understand the full consquences of this. On the other hand brain chemistry is not the only thing that changes in sleep. Another change is that large parts of the brain are deactivated. One particular area is the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC), which performs certain functions related to self-awareness. There has been some speculation that you become lucid when these functions are somehow activated in dreams.Quote:
Originally Posted by adraw
This is again very subjective and hard to explain, but it's a bit like when you're lying in bed with your eyes closed, visualizing things randomly. And then at some point you find that it's not just visualization but real hallucinatory experience with your body disconnected from your real body, and you realize that you are fully immersed in the dream already.Quote:
I would better ask one more question if you dont mind:
"For me this change occurs rapidly and without any effort on my part"
If you can. Could you please go into more detail?
How do you know this? You may have heard people say it, especially on Dream Views, but have you traced this belief back to its source? If not it could be just an urban legend.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
This is how science works. The burden of proof is on the one who's making the positive claim (in this case you). A general consensus on a scientific matter is worthless unless it is a consensus among experts in the field. So yes, I'm happy to fly in the face of a general consensus when that consensus isn't supported by scientific evidence. Science isn't mob rule.Quote:
What I don't like is the simplistic argument "if you can move you weren't in SP".
You do like to ask others to "provide documentation".
Yet you yourself are all to happy to fly in the face of any evidence or a general consensus, offering little more evidence than a statement that you are right.
The term "sleep paralysis" in the sense of REM atonia is totally useless. Imagine a person who has never heard of lucid dreaming and has never had a lucid dreaming experience. One night he has a WILD by accident, and now he wants to describe the experience to another person. So he talks about the lead blanket, the sounds, and the vibrations leading into the dream. These are all accurate descriptions of his sensations. Why on earth would it occur to him to talk about "sleep paralysis"? It's not at all descriptive of his experience. (Yes, I know that some people actually experience paralysis but then it's a disorder and not very common.) So this is a matter of accuracy in communication; if you think it felt like a lead blanket then say "it felt like a lead blanket" and not "I went into sleep paralysis". The former is far more useful.
I've felt it myself. Labarge has described the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
There are many many descriptions of the same in Dream Views.
LOL. You keep saying this. A "positive" claim. What does that mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
As far as I can tell you're the one flying in the face of the evidence. You can be happy with it if you want. Doesn't make you correct.
FYI Laberge theories are based on actual science research. Or were you unaware of that?
Anecdotal evidence, as provided by posters on Dream Views, is evidence nonetheless.
Yet it is in common use. Which I guess makes it useful. Regardless of your opinion on the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Yet you would rather people adopt the term REM Atonia instead of Sleep Paralysis. The latter it seems to me is much more useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
I'm not asking how you know what sensations you had; you obviously do know that. I'm asking how you know those sensations were REM atonia. Did you go to sleep with EEG and H-reflex monitoring?Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Are you at all familiar with the philosophy of science? For example, if you claim that the flying spaghetti monster exists, it is up to you to demonstrate this (the positive claim). It's not my responsibility to disprove that it doesn't exist (the negative claim). And my failure to do so doesn't support your claim.Quote:
LOL. You keep saying this. A "positive" claim. What does that mean?
It's not enough just to invoke the name of an authority. You actually need to argue in support of your claims.Quote:
FYI Laberge theories are based on actual science research. Or were you unaware of that?
For describing the sensations you get when falling asleep in a WILD I'd say both are equally useless.Quote:
Yet you would rather people adopt the term REM Atonia instead of Sleep Paralysis. The latter it seems to me is much more useful.
The feeling I (Yes thor I said I, I know you don't experience it!) experience as I'm falling asleep in a WILD is that I can't move...as if I'm *Gasp* paralyzed! And you know what..I happen to be about to fall asleep....what should I call that...ummmm... Sleep paralysis! Its almost like I'm calling something a name which matches how it feels, and I've spoken with other people who have felt it...can you guess what they called it?
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=69777Quote:
Originally Posted by Duka30
Amongst me and four friends this method has proved highly successful. It worked just as well for five other random individuals who I asked to try this method. Hopefully it will work for you too.
LOL Do you go to sleep with EEG and H-reflex monitoring Thor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Laberge, who conducted significant research on sleep and dreaming states, very clearly that these are sensations you experience when entering Sleep Paralysis.
There are a significant number of people who describe the same sensations as they enter a dream. They experience these sensations. They enter a dream. They run around in their dream without their real bodies bouncing off the walls.
Or to put it another way, the sensations are something they observed. Observation is actually quite important in Science, wouldn’t you say?
So you’ve reiterated time and again. So if you stood up and claimed that penguins did not exist, you would have no responsibility to prove your case? It seems to me that this “claim” argument is a smokescreen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Erm, isn’t that what I and others have been doing. Offering compelling evidence which you have dismissed without providing any legitimate justification for doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Apart of course from some vague assertion that because of the POWER OF SCIENCE you in fact do not need to provide evidence for your “opinions”.
Forgive me if I remain unconvinced.
LOL. Yet a significant number of people find the information useful. So what does that tell you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
I never said that there aren't people who get sleep paralysis in the sense of a disorder, but the percentage is low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortalis
What are you saying then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
What exactly are you arguing about?
No, he said these sensations are harbingers of REM sleep paralysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Exactly: they run around in their dream with no experience of being paralyzed. Ergo there is no need to drag in any talk about paralysis, because that simply does not describe the experience. Of course you know rationally that your real body isn't moving during this experience, but that knowledge is completely unusable.Quote:
There are a significant number of people who describe the same sensations as they enter a dream. They experience these sensations. They enter a dream. They run around in their dream without their real bodies bouncing off the walls.
That's correct. I say the abominable snowman does not exist. If you say he exists, it's entirely up to you to prove it.Quote:
So you’ve reiterated time and again. So if you stood up and claimed that penguins did not exist, you would have no responsibility to prove your case?
If you read my article on sleep paralysis you would know that I have taken sleep paralysis as a disorder into account. I even said that you could use this state to initiate lucid dreams from. What I'm arguing against are the following myths:Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
- Myth 1: That it's possible to willfully induce REM atonia outside of REM sleep and that a large proportion of people who WILD regularly do this.
- Myth 2: That it's normal to experience REM atonia in REM sleep.
- Myth 3: That sensations like the lead blanket feeling, numbness, tingling, vibrations, etc. are symptoms of REM atonia occurring outside of REM sleep.
I haven't seen any facts that support these ideas; hence I consider them myths.
and then he saysQuote:
Originally Posted by Thor
"eventually you will experience sensations like those above which will rapidly lead to complete paralysis of your physical body".
Your spinning your wheels mate. This has already been agreed. You don't need to feel SP first to enter a dream. But you will have SP (or -sigh- REM Atonia) whilst dreaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
The fact remains, deliberately letting SP occour whilst remaining conscious is a accepted method of lucid dreaming.
Thats not the example I gave thor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
To reiterate: what if you say that there are no penguins in the world. Is it up to the rest of us to disprove it? Of course not.
In this context your "claim" method is clearly a bit of a smokescreen.
Probably why you ignored the question.
Good luck selling that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
EH?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
WTF!Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
:shock:
All, it seems, based on the overwhelming evidence of your OPINON. And not much else.
Well, obviously REM atonia describes muscle atonia during REM sleep, which of course is apparent to anyone in the name...It occurs during REM sleep...unless you sleep walk. However, muscle atonia is quite common in NREM, take a look at the study I've posted in another thread..it describes MAN (Muscle atonia in NREM) occuring more than 30% of the time during some sleep cycles.
Do we have to chase each other around the forum debating the same things over and over again? I'm getting a little tired of this. Lets all try to avoid posting the same stuff in every SP related thread, rekindling the same debate.
EDIT: I made that a little less directed at just Thor. Sorry.