Thread: Partial Sleep paralysis

Originally Posted by Thor

If you can move whenever you want to there's no reason to assume that you had muscle atonia in the first place. Since you're making the claim that this is sleep paralysis rather than relaxation, it's up to you to provide the documentation for this claim.

Eh?! When you feel the wave come over you, the vibrations, the sounds etc, thats a pretty good indication that your in Sleep Paralysis (Rem Atonia).

I would agree that the lead blanked is not SP, but it is probably a part of the progression to SP.

What I don't like is the simplistic argument "if you can move you weren't in SP".

You do like to ask others to "provide documentation".
Yet you yourself are all to happy to fly in the face of any evidence or a general consensus, offering little more evidence than a statement that you are right.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Eh?! When you feel the wave come over you, the vibrations, the sounds etc, thats a pretty good indication that your in Sleep Paralysis (Rem Atonia).

How do you know this? You may have heard people say it, especially on Dream Views, but have you traced this belief back to its source? If not it could be just an urban legend.

What I don't like is the simplistic argument "if you can move you weren't in SP".

You do like to ask others to "provide documentation".
Yet you yourself are all to happy to fly in the face of any evidence or a general consensus, offering little more evidence than a statement that you are right.

This is how science works. The burden of proof is on the one who's making the positive claim (in this case you). A general consensus on a scientific matter is worthless unless it is a consensus among experts in the field. So yes, I'm happy to fly in the face of a general consensus when that consensus isn't supported by scientific evidence. Science isn't mob rule.

The term "sleep paralysis" in the sense of REM atonia is totally useless. Imagine a person who has never heard of lucid dreaming and has never had a lucid dreaming experience. One night he has a WILD by accident, and now he wants to describe the experience to another person. So he talks about the lead blanket, the sounds, and the vibrations leading into the dream. These are all accurate descriptions of his sensations. Why on earth would it occur to him to talk about "sleep paralysis"? It's not at all descriptive of his experience. (Yes, I know that some people actually experience paralysis but then it's a disorder and not very common.) So this is a matter of accuracy in communication; if you think it felt like a lead blanket then say "it felt like a lead blanket" and not "I went into sleep paralysis". The former is far more useful.

Originally Posted by Thor

How do you know this? You may have heard people say it, especially on Dream Views, but have you traced this belief back to its source? If not it could be just an urban legend.

I've felt it myself. Labarge has described the same.
There are many many descriptions of the same in Dream Views.

Originally Posted by Thor

This is how science works. The burden of proof is on the one who's making the positive claim (in this case you). A general consensus on a scientific matter is worthless unless it is a consensus among experts in the field. So yes, I'm happy to fly in the face of a general consensus when that consensus isn't supported by scientific evidence. Science isn't mob rule.

LOL. You keep saying this. A "positive" claim. What does that mean?
As far as I can tell you're the one flying in the face of the evidence. You can be happy with it if you want. Doesn't make you correct.

FYI Laberge theories are based on actual science research. Or were you unaware of that?
Anecdotal evidence, as provided by posters on Dream Views, is evidence nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Thor

The term "sleep paralysis" in the sense of REM atonia is totally useless.

Yet it is in common use. Which I guess makes it useful. Regardless of your opinion on the subject.

Originally Posted by Thor

So this is a matter of accuracy in communication; if you think it felt like a lead blanket then say "it felt like a lead blanket" and not "I went into sleep paralysis". The former is far more useful.

Yet you would rather people adopt the term REM Atonia instead of Sleep Paralysis. The latter it seems to me is much more useful.

Originally Posted by moonshine

I've felt it myself. Labarge has described the same.

I'm not asking how you know what sensations you had; you obviously do know that. I'm asking how you know those sensations were REM atonia. Did you go to sleep with EEG and H-reflex monitoring?

LOL. You keep saying this. A "positive" claim. What does that mean?

Are you at all familiar with the philosophy of science? For example, if you claim that the flying spaghetti monster exists, it is up to you to demonstrate this (the positive claim). It's not my responsibility to disprove that it doesn't exist (the negative claim). And my failure to do so doesn't support your claim.

FYI Laberge theories are based on actual science research. Or were you unaware of that?

It's not enough just to invoke the name of an authority. You actually need to argue in support of your claims.

Yet you would rather people adopt the term REM Atonia instead of Sleep Paralysis. The latter it seems to me is much more useful.

For describing the sensations you get when falling asleep in a WILD I'd say both are equally useless.

The feeling I (Yes thor I said I, I know you don't experience it!) experience as I'm falling asleep in a WILD is that I can't move...as if I'm *Gasp* paralyzed! And you know what..I happen to be about to fall asleep....what should I call that...ummmm... Sleep paralysis! Its almost like I'm calling something a name which matches how it feels, and I've spoken with other people who have felt it...can you guess what they called it?

Originally Posted by Mortalis

The feeling I (Yes thor I said I, I know you don't experience it!) experience as I'm falling asleep in a WILD is that I can't move...as if I'm *Gasp* paralyzed! And you know what..I happen to be about to fall asleep....what should I call that...ummmm... Sleep paralysis! Its almost like I'm calling something a name which matches how it feels, and I've spoken with other people who have felt it...can you guess what they called it?

I never said that there aren't people who get sleep paralysis in the sense of a disorder, but the percentage is low.

Originally Posted by Thor

I never said that there aren't people who get sleep paralysis in the sense of a disorder, but the percentage is low.

What are you saying then?
What exactly are you arguing about?

Originally Posted by Thor

I'm not asking how you know what sensations you had; you obviously do know that. I'm asking how you know those sensations were REM atonia. Did you go to sleep with EEG and H-reflex monitoring?

LOL Do you go to sleep with EEG and H-reflex monitoring Thor?

Laberge, who conducted significant research on sleep and dreaming states, very clearly that these are sensations you experience when entering Sleep Paralysis.

There are a significant number of people who describe the same sensations as they enter a dream. They experience these sensations. They enter a dream. They run around in their dream without their real bodies bouncing off the walls.

Or to put it another way, the sensations are something they observed. Observation is actually quite important in Science, wouldn’t you say?

Originally Posted by Thor

Are you at all familiar with the philosophy of science? For example, if you claim that the flying spaghetti monster exists, it is up to you to demonstrate this (the positive claim). It's not my responsibility to disprove that it doesn't exist (the negative claim). And my failure to do so doesn't support your claim.

So you’ve reiterated time and again. So if you stood up and claimed that penguins did not exist, you would have no responsibility to prove your case? It seems to me that this “claim” argument is a smokescreen.

Originally Posted by Thor

It's not enough just to invoke the name of an authority. You actually need to argue in support of your claims.

Erm, isn’t that what I and others have been doing. Offering compelling evidence which you have dismissed without providing any legitimate justification for doing so.
Apart of course from some vague assertion that because of the POWER OF SCIENCE you in fact do not need to provide evidence for your “opinions”.

Forgive me if I remain unconvinced.

Originally Posted by Thor

For describing the sensations you get when falling asleep in a WILD I'd say both are equally useless.

LOL. Yet a significant number of people find the information useful. So what does that tell you?

Originally Posted by moonshine

Laberge, who conducted significant research on sleep and dreaming states, very clearly that these are sensations you experience when entering Sleep Paralysis.

No, he said these sensations are harbingers of REM sleep paralysis.

There are a significant number of people who describe the same sensations as they enter a dream. They experience these sensations. They enter a dream. They run around in their dream without their real bodies bouncing off the walls.

Exactly: they run around in their dream with no experience of being paralyzed. Ergo there is no need to drag in any talk about paralysis, because that simply does not describe the experience. Of course you know rationally that your real body isn't moving during this experience, but that knowledge is completely unusable.

So you’ve reiterated time and again. So if you stood up and claimed that penguins did not exist, you would have no responsibility to prove your case?

That's correct. I say the abominable snowman does not exist. If you say he exists, it's entirely up to you to prove it.

Originally Posted by Thor

No, he said these sensations are harbingers of REM sleep paralysis.

and then he says
"eventually you will experience sensations like those above which will rapidly lead to complete paralysis of your physical body".

Originally Posted by Thor

Exactly: they run around in their dream with no experience of being paralyzed. Ergo there is no need to drag in any talk about paralysis, because that simply does not describe the experience. Of course you know rationally that your real body isn't moving during this experience, but that knowledge is completely unusable.

Your spinning your wheels mate. This has already been agreed. You don't need to feel SP first to enter a dream. But you will have SP (or -sigh- REM Atonia) whilst dreaming.

The fact remains, deliberately letting SP occour whilst remaining conscious is a accepted method of lucid dreaming.

Originally Posted by Thor

That's correct. I say the abominable snowman does not exist. If you say he exists, it's entirely up to you to prove it.

Thats not the example I gave thor.
To reiterate: what if you say that there are no penguins in the world. Is it up to the rest of us to disprove it? Of course not.
In this context your "claim" method is clearly a bit of a smokescreen.
Probably why you ignored the question.