Effect of legal and illegal drugs on lucid dreaming

[drspliff]

Hi, I was wondering if anybody would be able to share their experiences in using legal and illegal drugs and their short and long term effects on lucid dreaming. About a year ago I went on an all-out drug binge (btw, this is a very stupid idea for anybody interested), I ended up experementing with various types of magic mushrooms (legal and illegal), Salvia Divinorum and LSD. Up until then I was only having very short, infrequent lucid dreams, usually just noticing that I was dreaming then waking up. During my period of 'drug abuse ' I had quite a few fantastic lucid experiences, everything from flying (LSD), my bedroom changing colors & turning into a jungle (Salvia & Mushrooms), and closing my eyes & seeing very realistic people walking past. Even though it's been about a year since then, I find it fairly easily to induce weak hallucinations - for example, when I'm going to sleep I see pictures, people & objects in different situations just by closing my eyes, or even if it's just really dark & my eyes are open. Another side to this is that I seem to be having more frequent lucid dreams, varying in length from less than a minute upto what seems like half an hour, but I'm never in control of them. I'm not entirely sure if a lot of these are lucid dreams, or just a sign of severe mental instability , but I usually have fairly vivid visions when I close my eyes & drift off to sleep from whatever I've been doing before I went to bed. (If i've been playing computer games, i'll usually re-enact some part of that game, or if i've been making love with my partner i'll probably go on and have some pretty raunchy visions). Compared to other peoples (e.g. you) experiences, do you notice similarities between my experiences and your own? Or if you have 'experemented' with similar substances a year or more ago, have you noticed them to effect your experiences of lucidity? Much appreciated. (Although my nickname is DrSpliff, I'm not an active user of cannabis, and haven't been for some time now)

[Seeker]

I for one don't believe in taking drugs. One thing required to have a good and frequent lucid dreams is a sharp and active mind. I've noticed that even alcohol has a detrimental effect on lucid dreaming.

[Rev. Pastora]

Back when you could still get decent acid, I did a LOT of it. Once a week minimum. It aided meditation, but didn't help dreaming. The dreams were 'trippy' but by no means lucid. I felt lke it was an interesting change of pace as far as normal dreams, but not a useful thing beyond the actual trip experiences. Dream recall suffered. When I smoked pot heavily, dream recall went to zero. I felt like I'd stopped dreaming altogether. This actually started around the time acid was no longer available, and continued until I stopped smoking pot. During the periods when I wasn't smoking for a while, I was drinking in it's place, and during these periods, there was also no dream recall. I also experimented with a variety of other drugs and psychedelics, not infrequently, the entire time. This covers nearly a 20 year period. I still smoke salvia. I find it an excellent 'teacher', but it really hasn't had any bearing on the act of dreaming. It does, however, make it easier for me to assimilate the dream experiences into my overall view of things. I find my dream recall is very poor the day after a salvia session, but the overall 'philosophical' improvement more than makes up for the one-night setback. I smoke salvia less than once a week. Most salvia smokers I know use it even less. The greatest leap forward in dreaming for me was to face a drug screen at work and become sober.

[Human #213-651-789]

Originally posted by Seeker I for one don't believe in taking drugs. One thing required to have a good and frequent lucid dreams is a sharp and active mind. I've noticed that even alcohol has a detrimental effect on lucid dreaming. You've obviously never experienced an hallucinogen. They can sharpen and activate your mind beyond your wildest dreams. Believe it or not, it is the same lure that brought you to lucid dreaming that brings many to the hallucinogenic experience.

[Kaniaz]

Originally posted by Human #213-651-789 You've obviously never experienced an hallucinogen. They can sharpen and activate your mind beyond your wildest dreams. Also with the added benefit of killing your brain cells, making you do things that aren't feasible in real life, and even making some people be committed to mental homes for life. It's worth it, isn't it, just so you can see pigs fly...

[Seeker]

Originally posted by Human #213&#045;651&#045;789+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Human #213&#045;651&#045;789)</div> <!--QuoteBegin-Seeker I for one don't believe in taking drugs. One thing required to have a good and frequent lucid dreams is a sharp and active mind. I've noticed that even alcohol has a detrimental effect on lucid dreaming. You've obviously never experienced an hallucinogen. They can sharpen and activate your mind beyond your wildest dreams. [/b] You recon? I know the lure of drugs very well. I walked away from the drug scene in 1978. It just didn't appeal to me anymore. Every now and then, I run into one of my old buddies. Those that got out of the scene early seem to be doing well, those that kept it up.... not so good. I've had to calm friends down that were running throught the halls screaming thier heads off from a bad trip. I've had to sober up friends so that they could go home. I've had to help friends stay awake because we were so full of barbituates I thought they would die if I allowed them to fall asleep. No thanks! I will travel my road to enlightenment without chemical help. *rant off*

[Shadows]

well............. i never had a problem with any of those things.........

[Howie]

Hallucinigentics were actually researched at harvard at one point in history. LSD A crystalline compound, C20H25N3O, derived from lysergic acid and used as a powerful hallucinogenic drug. Also called acid. PCP and some others stem new brain cells when used which gave people the false assumtion that this would make them "smarter." But the longer effects actually mutate those new brain cell and the body can no longer stimulate the the growth process in those cells.

[Rev. Pastora]

The reports I've read about the Harvard research is that it consisted mainly of Dr. Leary handing everybody he ran into pharmeceutical grade LSD. (hence the parties in the 60's being called 'acid tests') The reports also tell of him doing the same thing with the psilocybin that was extracted from mushrooms when regular scientists first isolated the active ingredient. Legend has it Dr. Hofmann was looking to make an 'abortion pill' when he stumbed upon LSD. He's never commented, AFAIK. The Army also did some research with LSD, to see if it would serve as a 'truth serum'. Didn't work. Bear in mind I get some of my history from unreliable and/or unrecognized sources. Psychedelics research would be no less convoluted than dream research. The subjects' responses are highly personal and widely varied, and results would be impossible to agree on.

[Seeker]

I remember the scandle when the army gave LSD to unsuspecting soldiers. Maybe I am misremembering, but I though LSD was the unintentional size effect of someone trying to create a vascodialator?

[Rev. Pastora]

I've seen the abortifactive rumor in several places, but always prefaced with 'rumor'. I don't recall ever hearing Hofmann come right out and say what he was looking for. The first time he became aware of the hallucinogenic effects, it was LSD 25, so there had been 24 variations before it. He discovered the effects through accidental topical absorption, so it's possible that any number of the other 24 were also active hallucinogens. I'll see if I can find his book; maybe I just forgot what his story is. I'm reaching, but I think that's ecstasy that was supposed to be a vascodilator.

[Simonster]

Hmm. I read that Hoffman was looking for an anti-migraine medication, which certainly seems more plausible, seeing as LSD is a serotonin receptor agonist, and migraines are caused by low serotonin levels. Some serotonin agonist migraine medications are hallucinogenic in high enough doses. Anyway, traditional serotonergic hallucinogens (LSD, DMT, shrooms, 2C-B, etc.) will NOT kill brain cells. No one claims they do. They can alter the way your brain works in undesirable ways (see HPPD), but they can also alter the way your brain works in desirable ways.

[trickynishidake]

Hmmmm so the moral debate around drug use/abuse seems a little weird and off topic, but..... *scratches head* But in response to the original post, I also have very vivid visualizations before going to sleep, which some times even keep me awake. I have never used hallucenogenics tho. My gf has the same experience at bedtime and we had a chat about it the other nght. We were speculating that is like as soon as we relax our conscious mind a bit, our subconcious is ready to jump in and start it's movie marathon 'o' crap you did that day and random junk, which is usally the purpose your dreams serve for most people. We were discussing that maybe it has to do with barriers between your conscious and subconcious and how it varies from person to person. We're also both very creative and imaginative people and we both happen to be easy to hypnotize. I also have little trouble attaing lucidity in dreams. Sometimes in my dream i'll be thinking about what a weird dream i'm having or I just note the fact that i'm dreaming and carry on. Control is another issue completely but anyway.... I don't think your experience is an exclusive effect of hallucinogens. Using hallucinogens may have increased your awareness of your subconcious somewhat or eroded the your perceptions of the "barrier" between your two minds a bit. But that is just my interpetation of my experience and i have never used acid or shrooms or anything so i dont know firsthand However if I drink alcohol or smoke cannabis I have almost zero dream recall. More so with cannabis, I dont even remeber falling asleep until I wake up. Pretty much no chance of an LD if I smoke that's for sure

[drspliff]

It's been very nice hearing your opinions (although I think it was kinda side-tracked by a small drug debate going on). I agree with what trickynishidake said, I think that having used various hallucinagenic drugs they have distorted or blured the gap between my concious and unconcious states. And again with cannabis, from what I've experienced I'm a very heavy sleeper after a session (thankfully I no longer smoke the stuff, it was giving me serious mental angst). I'm not sure what you meant about alcohol, i've had some pretty funky experiences after nights out heavily drinking (it seems to occur more if I mix spirits and beer ). On one occasion I was waking up every 10-20 minutes as the alcohol was wearing off, and then dropping into a lucid sort of dreaming state very quickly. Beleave me.. it's a very very odd sensation having two dreams - concurrently (at once) - that are both very realistic (lucid, but I had bearly any control over them). In my opinion I think the effects of lysergic acid (and various acompanying amides) should be a side-topic to lucid dream research, but in general both need a lot more research (sorry guys, that means large corporations have to think it'll produce commercially viable outcome to be worth investing in ).

[Howie]

Sorry drspliff. I bielive I took it off topic a bit with the Harvard LSD thing. Originally posted by drspliff Compared to other peoples (e.g. you) experiences, do you notice similarities between my experiences and your own? Or if you have 'experemented' with similar substances a year or more ago, have you noticed them to effect your experiences of lucidity? Although it has been longer than a year, I have also partaken in my share of mind altering substances. I would rather not go into detail ( I probably couldn't remeber anyway. ) But what you describe sounds to me like just vivid hynagogic imagery. I have very vivid HI too. Although I am not seeing what you are so it is truely hard to say for sure.

[drspliff]

Sounds interesting, atleast it's a recognized medical term and i'm not going nuts 1. Hypnagogic imagery. Prior to sleep, in the state between wakefulness and sleep, many people (about 33%, see Richardson, 1969, p. 129) experience mental images that are vivid and autonomous, but are not yet dreams. Hypnagogic images, according to some, are the result of the visual system \"attempting to make sense\" of the visual input still available to the eyes when the mind is drifting toward sleep. Even in very low ambient light levels, light penetrates the eyelids, making the patterns of blood flow through them visible. This is the basis for an \"interpretation\" by the visual system. The visual system may attempt to \"force\" the input to correspond to, say, a geometrical pattern, or the semblance of some object. Dream images or memory images may intrude into such images. 2. Hypnopompic imagery. Prior to waking up, a state similar to the hypnagogic state frequently occurs. Mental imagery in this state again exhibits autonomy. [/b] Thanks for giving me the correct wording, otherwise I wouldn't be sure of what to look for.

[Human #213-651-789]

Originally posted by Seeker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Seeker)</div> Originally posted by Human #213&#045;651&#045;789@ <!--QuoteBegin-Seeker I for one don't believe in taking drugs. *One thing required to have a good and frequent lucid dreams is a sharp and active mind. I've noticed that even alcohol has a detrimental effect on lucid dreaming. You've obviously never experienced an hallucinogen. They can sharpen and activate your mind beyond your wildest dreams. You recon? I know the lure of drugs very well. I walked away from the drug scene in 1978. It just didn't appeal to me anymore. Every now and then, I run into one of my old buddies. Those that got out of the scene early seem to be doing well, those that kept it up.... not so good. I've had to calm friends down that were running throught the halls screaming thier heads off from a bad trip. I've had to sober up friends so that they could go home. I've had to help friends stay awake because we were so full of barbituates I thought they would die if I allowed them to fall asleep. No thanks! I will travel my road to enlightenment without chemical help. *rant off* [/b] Travel the road to enlightenment without chemical help?! I don't think so! Meditating alters brain chemistry. Doing yoga alters brain chemistry. Every emotion you experience can be related to a particular brain chemistry at that moment. And, dreaming, among other changes, includes an increase in DMT, a hallucinogen! The entire goal of any spiritual practice or ritual is to bring about a change in brain chemistry that will facilitate a holy experience. These are plants that have been used safely for thousands of years. I'm not talking about the "drug scene" - narcotics, stimulants, and depressants (barbituates). And reckless, irresponsible users of anything are going to end up f'd in some way.

[Mickeys_Elbow]

I agree in a large part with Joseph Campbell's take on the casual vs. spiritual uses of drugs. "Bad trips" are caused when people are not aware or prepared to go where they are going to be taken by the said drug, and casual use is a sure fire way to induce these. Bad or too frequent trips are what will send you to the mental ward, but precise and concious experimentation is a sure fire way to experience life from a new perspective. And as far as how the chemicals I've consumed effecting dreams... mushrooms give me INCREDIBLY detailed HI. It's like looking at a mirror reflecting a mirror and being able to see all of the way into the neverending corridor that it creates. Cannabis completely destroys my dream recall as well and I wouldn't recommend it's use. Also one of the first lucids I've ever had was after going to bed with a head full of beer.

[Seeker]

Originally posted by Human #213-651-789 *Travel the road to enlightenment without chemical help?! *I don't think so! *Meditating alters brain chemistry. *Doing yoga alters brain chemistry. *Every emotion you experience can be related to a particular brain chemistry at that moment. *And, dreaming, among other changes, includes an increase in DMT, a hallucinogen! *The entire goal of any spiritual practice or ritual is to bring about a change in brain chemistry that will facilitate a holy experience. *These are plants that have been used safely for thousands of years. *I'm not talking about the \"drug scene\" - narcotics, stimulants, and depressants (barbituates). *And reckless, irresponsible users of anything are going to end up f'd in some way. Oops! Guess I should rephrase that as "Without supplimental chemical help"