astral travel

[lee]

has anyone ever projected into the astral plane?

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by lee has anyone ever projected into the astral plane? Actually we all do. the only thing that the Out of Body People do that we don't do is take the first step out of their body into that lower astral plane that overlaps our material plane -- it presents a great problem being that close to the physical body as almost any thought or emotion will snap the Astral Body back into the physical. But once outside of throwing distance the Astral Body becomes stable. Then the problem is that there is nothing much to see. Yes, one can fly off to see faraway places, for a moment or two, but these are places suited to the Physical Body. the Astral Body can hardly be impressed by anything in the Material World no matter how holy the site might be. So, eventually, those who do Astral Travel decide to go upward to the True Astral and Spiritual Planes, which is what we have been doing all along. Anyway, there is a way of going from The Lucid Astral to the Lower Astral that overlaps the Physical World. If you can remember in what position you were sleeping, then, in your dream, assume that same orientation, and then launch yourself upward as though you wished to pierce the atmosphere and enter Outer Space. What that does is take you from the refined Astral to the coarse Astral of the Physical World. When you seem to hit the border of Outer Space, where the sky turns from Blue to Black and the stars intensity in brightness -- suddenly that will all break up and you will find yourself, probably, some few hundred feet above your house or flat. But, as I've said, it will be quite boring. The most you will be able to gain from the experience is to say you have done it. One thing you might notice, is the spiritual quality of your particular neighborhood. If there are Angels or demons about, you will be able to see them. Most demons aren't of the stature of absolute evil... they are mostly like a bunch of snotty little elves and sinister dwarves. The worst the neighborhood, the more of those rascals you'll find running about. A nice estate might have fairees. Every Catholic Church will have an Angel.

[dreamboat]

Trailor Park Demons and White Trash Monsters ............................England is Going the same way you know............................. I blame Tony Blair ..............LOL. And of course........................'Judge Judy'................(Well if You Desire it that Much........it Will Happen). Depends upon what you really want. But Be Careful What You Wish For. It May Come True.

[lee]

i want to learn how to do this

[Artie J]

(I asked this elsewhere) We experience the world with our bodies, our sensory organs. If you believe your spirit can leave your body through OOBE or AP, PLEASE answer this simple question: How does a pure spirit experience sights, sounds, etc? People claim their spirit travelled out of their bodies, they saw this, they heard that, etc. I would love to hear a creative dance around mystical mumbo jumbo explaination/rationalization of why sensory organs were not required for this magical experience.. Some people spend a lifetime building up a belief system about spirituality, that is motivated, although they can't admit it, by the fear of death. It is not unacceptable to me that when my body dies, my mind, my self, goes with it. (Not that I'm in favor of it...) I did not exist for a very very very long time BEFORE I was born, why should it be any different after my body functions cease? Oh, here it comes...how do you KNOW you didn't exist before you were born? If you believe you remember past lives, that only demonstrates to me the power and creativity of the mind to satisfy the ego's denial of death. There have been demonstations of false childhood memories under hypnosis before. Ok, well, somebody has to be the cynic!

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Artie J We experience the world with ... our sensory organs. If you believe your spirit can leave your body through OOBE or AP, PLEASE answer this simple question: How does a pure spirit experience sights, sounds, etc? Ears hear sound waves. Eyes see lightwaves. The Spirit perceives Gravity Waves. When a Spirit links into All Things, becoming One with All Things, there is gained by this an direct connection to Perception by Gravity. Everything that exists gives off a Gravitational Field. Einsteins Unified Field is Gravity.

[Artie J]

And so somehow these "perceptions" of gravitational waves are translated to the traveler's brain as memories of images and sounds, etc? You see, I've always believed that the simplest answer is usually the best one, no need for "Well there's this slippery kind of undefined thing that happens that could possibly be somehow linked to an unknown - etc ." Although I admit there are a lot of unknowns in the universe. Please understand, I'm just hashing this stuff out. No belligerence here, just my point of view based on my life experiences up to this point!

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Artie J And so somehow these \"perceptions\" of gravitational waves are translated to the traveler's brain as memories of images and sounds, etc? It's not a difficult translation. No harder than what the mind now does with a couple of two-dimensional light arrays -- the eyes (computer programmers have a horrible time of trying to give artificial intelligence anything approaching our kind of vision). The optical vision, as processed by the mind, is so convincingly real and three dimensional that the Great Hindu Thinker Sankaracharya found himself inventing the argument of the Rope and the Snake in order to emphasize that optical vision, and our other perceptions were not direct perceptions. But perception in gravitation would be a bit more easy to process, being more akin to ... well... direct perception. We hear of it being manifested as one's body boundaries expanding into the room and then outside the building, subsuming the neighborhood, increasing exponentially until one is quite a few galaxy systems. Yes, sometimes not much useful information is included in these perceptions, but maybe much more than what comes from just optical vision. In India I knew a man who could do these gravity trances. He came out of his trance and he suggested we go for a walk -- a half a mile away a cow had gotten tangled up and could not reach its bucket of water.

[muse.v]

Ears hear sound waves. Eyes see lightwaves.[/b] Ok, so these are simple and straightfoward, this happens in 'Real Life' The Spirit perceives Gravity Waves. [/b] Why would the spirt be the tool for perceiving gravity in an ABE, but not in RL? I believe the organ used to perceive gravity is located in the ear. IMO we wont be able to feel gravity, or 'gravity waves' in an ABE, by the same reasoning that we can't see light or hear sound. Gravity does not provide any better answer than the other two. I'd like to say that an ABE is just like being 'lucid' (in the dream sense) but not actually knowing its a dream, or having convinced yourself otherwise. So, if you have experienced an ABE and your perception resembled gravity waves or otherwise, isn't it more logical to say that this is just your mind being creative, in a dreaming sense? Can you Astral Project in real life? If you can only do it while sleeping or having dreamed, doesn't that say something to you? The fact is, the definition of astral projection resembles falling asleep and dreaming. I can't ask you to do it 'while awake.' On another note, if you're ready to believe in Astral Projection and lower planes, spirits, etc, why bother trying to back it up with references to Einstien and Gravity Waves?

[Wayward Oneironaut]

Haha, yeah there is always a cynic around to keep us dreamers at bay. Ok, Artie J, you have an inquisitive mind and are interested in this spiritual "mumbo jumbo". I think I had many of the same thoughts you do when it came to the whole spiritual subject. For some reason, though, I am now closer to the mystics in my beliefs. I think the thing to remember, always, is that the world we perceive is not only colored, but also created, by our beliefs about what we expect it to be. We accumulate these notions throughout our lives and they are very hard to shake, if at all. So, lets dissect your logic, for a second: We experience the world with our bodies, our sensory organs.[/b] Have you ever been in love? No real organs associated with it, and yet that is one of the most powerful experiences known to man. Or how about having a committed conversation late at night with some friends, where you let you mind wander a bit into subjects foreign to you, yet oddly as if you've always felt that way, like you were coming home? Again, you might have used your so-called senses to get to that experience, but that experience is separate from how you achieved it. Both of these experiences occur on another level of thought or conciousness. How does a pure spirit experience sights, sounds, etc?[/b] Well, on this one I just have to throw a thought back at you - these sights and sounds we perceive do not appear that way outside of our own perception, that is to say, before entering our minds, everything probably (I say probably, cause its the best definition we have right now) exists in state of quantum flux, as waves of potentiality. The world that we perceive is only there in the form we know when we look at it. This is not even to mention how we filter even that filtered version of reality with our fears, etc. Quite possibly, our \"egos\" are filtering an already filtered perception of what reailty is. And to throw another mind-bender at you - even our own bodies (and minds?) exist in these waves of potentiality which only are given shape and substance when we focus our attention on them. . I did not exist for a very very very long time BEFORE I was born, why should it be any different after my body functions cease?[/b] Ok, and I ask how you know that you didn't exist before you were born? Just because people have been hypnotized and created false memories doesn't prove anything. Several people have said to me that they couldn't see air, doesn't mean that its proveable one way or the other. You may not have conscious memory of it, and especially won't if you believe that you didn't exist before. You may not have been in the same form, but everything you are made of has always been here. We are made of stardust and stars are made of us. Heck, step into a different perspective for a minute and view our atoms from a much enhanced and magnified view - they are stars, just tiny in contrast to the ones above, but if we could perceive them with tiny eyes, then atoms are galaxies within themselves. I don't mean to knock your ideas about life or anything. I think its just a better idea to challenge your own perspective. Its hard to get past the conditioning we have received our whole life, but thats what life is. I think you are trying to get spiritual answers by trying to reason with this logically and its just impossible, especially without an open-minded and unconditioned logic. Anyway, feel free to argue, I live for these conversations.

[YULAW]

Yeah and I live to read interesting subjects on this Level keep it up guys but keep it clean. Because this is good stuff..

[muse.v]

I will keep it clean, for sure. Have you ever been in love? No real organs associated with it, and yet that is one of the most powerful experiences known to man. Or how about having a committed conversation late at night with some friends, where you let you mind wander a bit into subjects foreign to you, yet oddly as if you've always felt that way, like you were coming home? Again, you might have used your so-called senses to get to that experience, but that experience is separate from how you achieved it. Both of these experiences occur on another level of thought or conciousness. [/b] The Brain, and chemical glands are responsible for love. These are real organs. Thought and consciousness are located in the Brain. Yes, it is most definitely on a different level to perception. Love is still very important to me, but i wont discuss it here. I think we should keep this thread from turning into a discussion on love. Well, on this one I just have to throw a thought back at you - these sights and sounds we perceive do not appear that way outside of our own perception, that is to say, before entering our minds, everything probably (I say probably, cause its the best definition we have right now) exists in state of quantum flux, as waves of potentiality. The world that we perceive is only there in the form we know when we look at it. This is not even to mention how we filter even that filtered version of reality with our fears, etc. Quite possibly, our \"egos\" are filtering an already filtered perception of what reailty is. And to throw another mind-bender at you - even our own bodies (and minds?) exist in these waves of potentiality which only are given shape and substance when we focus our attention on them. [/b] Yes. I agree with what you've written here. It doesn't even seem spiritual to me, or suggest a pure spirit in anyway. Ok, and I ask how you know that you didn't exist before you were born? Just because people have been hypnotized and created false memories doesn't prove anything. Several people have said to me that they couldn't see air, doesn't mean that its proveable one way or the other. You may not have conscious memory of it, and especially won't if you believe that you didn't exist before. You may not have been in the same form, but everything you are made of has always been here. We are made of stardust and stars are made of us. Heck, step into a different perspective for a minute and view our atoms from a much enhanced and magnified view - they are stars, just tiny in contrast to the ones above, but if we could perceive them with tiny eyes, then atoms are galaxies within themselves. [/b] Yes, i agree. We have all existed since the creation of the universe, if there is such a thing. But i think what he meant was "I" as in his consciousness, which exists in his brain, not the matter of his body. I think in future a compter could be conscious just as a human is. Perhaps we could interchange our brains on a computer. Consciousness could be represented by different matter. It doesn't matter what we're made of. I do not believe we can percieve anything if we had an ABE. I do not believe in ABE. Instead, i believe ABE's, astral projection, etc, is the same as dreaming. To me none of what you said suggests the existence of Astral Projection. I don't really appreciate being called cynical. The definition does not describe me at all. Like shadow said, lets keep it clean. i await your reply EDIT: Crap, i've been using ABE, thinking i was saying typing OBE. I'm getting Astral Projection and OBE mixed around. Let's just say ABE means "Astral projection / out of Body Experience"

[cooter]

Originally posted by muse.v I don't really appreciate being called cynical. Heh... How is it proven that these "astral planes" exhist? How is it proven that you leave your body? If one or more of the above cannot be answered in a logical way, then why do people assume these things?? I do not belive that "Astral Projection" is a dream, nor do I believe that it is a hullicuination, or that you leave your body. I'm not ready to start making weird theories that I can't prove, or start believing someone elses. Well thats Bob's 'Cynical' opinion.

[muse.v]

Good points bob! My opinions on the specific things you have raised: How is it proven that these \"astral planes\" exhist? How is it proven that you leave your body? [/b] Its not. If it was proven, then it would be part of science. There would be a theory that uses logic and works mathematically. But, i believe currently that it can not be proven, and it wont be proven, because it doesn't exist. At least not in a 'mystical' or paranormal way. If one or more of the above cannot be answered in a logical way, then why do people assume these things?? [/b] Good question. I do not belive that \"Astral Projection\" is a dream, nor do I believe that it is a hullicuination, or that you leave your body. I'm not ready to start making weird theories that I can't prove, or start believing someone elses. [/b] I believe that they are Dreams. In these dreams, you don't know its a dream, so they aren't lucid. Instead, you believe they are spirtual, so you assume things will unfold in a mystical way. This makes them seem different from other dreams. To have these, you are conscious in the dream. I think its known here that being conscious usually makes dream more realistc... There are reports here on DV of people that have lucid dreams so real and stable, that they are unable to control them. This sounds similar to OBE's in my opinion. As i said before, people here on dream views seem to induce these in a way similar to WILDS and other dreaming techniques. This explanation stays within the boundaries of current science, and makes more sense than other theories around. I can probably elaborate if there are specifics questions. (maybe i can't!!) As for psychic phenomena like Remote Viewing and dream sharing, i have never seen a credible source that these things exist. Simple dream sharing is coincedence imo. has anyone ever projected into the astral plane?[/b] IMO, No one has ever done this. Do you guys disagree with what i've said, here and earlier? Leo? I think you guys need to respond to some of my points, now i've responded to yours.

[Wayward Oneironaut]

Ok, by "cynic", I meant no disrespect. Believe me, I am all for healthy skepticism, heck thats what real, open-minded science strives for. Love is still very important to me, but i wont discuss it here. I think we should keep this thread from turning into a discussion on love.[/b] Ok, lets not talk about love, one of the most important vehicles of transformation and connection in the world. I think to deny that love is anything more than a few glands pumping chemicals is a bit naive and closed-minded. Love, not romantic love, but just the feeling of inner-connectedness and compassion for all things is an experience that most people at least glimpse during their lifetimes, to say lets not talk about this pivotal part of existing and to deny any possibilities that arise from it is to try to shove under the rug a very personal, globally felt human experience. Human experience is the basis for everything, including science, since at the end of the day perfect obectivism is a myth. Yes. I agree with what you've written here. It doesn't even seem spiritual to me, or suggest a pure spirit in anyway.[/b] I guess what I wrote isn't really spiritual, but it does cast a variety of doubts onto the solidity of the very foundation of what we believe to be real. If we are actively participating in modeling our versions of reality, if we exist in this state of quantum potentiality, and if we have the power of creation within that reality, its hard to look back and say that there exists fundamental rules of any kind. The world and us are not really separate at all - that is to say we influence each other. A quote I like is from I Heart Huckabees - \"Its the truth, but not the whole truth.\" That is to say that the world does exist, whether in our minds or outside of them - its the truth, but not the whole truth. Take for example quantum physics - isn't it a bit unsettling to the Western classical world view that at the most very fundamental level of existence that matter acts in completely absurd and irrational ways.. Yes, i agree. We have all existed since the creation of the universe, if there is such a thing. But i think what he meant was \"I\" as in his consciousness, which exists in his brain, not the matter of his body. I think in future a compter could be conscious just as a human is. Perhaps we could interchange our brains on a computer. Consciousness could be represented by different matter. It doesn't matter what we're made of.[/b] Ok, thats an interesting thought. Personally, I think what I call the universe, that is to say everything in existence, is infinite and has always been here, whether in this form or not. When I die, I am killing my ego's reflection of this universe. I mean a lot of the ways I view this realm are my own, I filter a lot of what comes through my senses just to manage it better and to avoid whatever fears I have, so in a way, when I die this unique, particular universe I have modeled goes with me. Also, you speak of consciousness like its stuck in one state. I have never been able to astral project, but I have been to different states of consciousness. If you have never experienced that its hard to explain just how much consciousness is capable of. In normal waking life, everyone of us has blinders on. We see a very narrow band of wavelength, actually we perceive less than 1% of all that exists. To claim that "I" exists solely in our bodies and is not connected to others on another level of consciousness (which, I know is an illogical and irrational "theory", but hey so is quantum physics, the basis for our current view of the world!) is, again, pretty naive. If the ultimate aim of science is to discover the truth of existence, which I think is its goal, besides trying to give old people the ability to have sex forever, then science has to swallow a big old helping of its pride and realize that it is working within a very narrow band of what we can perceive, that we don't know everything, and that the only thing science has done consistently is to find itself wrong and overturned itself eventually anyway. If anything came across as disresprectful, I apologize, I didn't mean it to be.

[Artie J]

Wayward: You've presented plenty of ideas, but my busy work schedule doesn't allow me enough time to go over them point by point. Let me just hit a couple of high points, and try to sum up my perspective. the world we perceive is not only colored, but also created, by our * beliefs about what we expect it to be.[/b] Agreed, we do not experience the world "directly". The brain models the world based on sensory input, memory and expectations. I believe the brain is responsible for ALL perceptions and experiences. If you thought you went OOB, it's still the brain that creates the experiences from, shall we say, "local resources", not tied or linked to etheral "other planes". Why is it necessary to explain OOBEs spiritually? I admit it is possible this occurs in a "spooky" way that we cannot understand, but why do many readily accept occult (meaning hidden) explainations? The problem I see is that there is a strong MOTIVATION to believe in spirituality, religion, etc. We want to believe there is a greater being that looks after us, that life has meaning, and that we will not cease to exist. So, believers are motivated to construct a supporting belief system. How reliable or accurate can these beliefs be? My approach is to believe what I see for myself, using reason to deduce the simplest explaination possible. Nothing motivates me to NOT believe in spiritual explainations. But I try to remain open... I am amazed at the complexity of life, the interdependancy of organisms on this planet. Love IS chemically based, but the existence of the experience of love may very well be the best argument that there is a greater purpose. I agree that ultimately, I think this mystery may remain unknowable, unmeasureable. My advice to the author Lee, believe what you will, but please base it on what you experience for yourself, instead of what some self proclaimed guru tells you. ...and I guess skeptic is a better word that cynic.

[lee]

i have explored Robert Bruce's website, astraldynamics.com or something like that, and somewhere in this site it talks about people who have projected and gone to a specific destination where a number code was in an isolated room and the projector saw it, woke up, and remembered the number code. they either remembered it regular or completely backwards. i wonder if that is true. What do you guys think?

[nesgirl119]

Originally posted by lee i have explored Robert Bruce's website, astraldynamics.com or something like that, and somewhere in this site it talks about people who have projected and gone to a specific destination where a number code was in an isolated room and the projector saw it, woke up, and remembered the number code. *they either remembered it regular or completely backwards. *i wonder if that is true. *What do you guys think? Well, & I believe it is possible to read an open book in a LD....so that I did! That is fun! It is actually possible to view a book, number, picture, the time, a number, or an event through an LD!! And it saves me a couple of pages to get through in real time!!

[dreamboat]

Nes..............Are you skirting the point...........or do you work for the NSA.

[nesgirl119]

Originally posted by dreamboat Nes..............Are you skirting the point...........or do you work for the NSA. I don't work for the NSA, silly!! I am just letting people know that in fact, you can read real books in LDs!

[dreamboat]

As in Literate........Oh C'Mon.............Z=m26 etc................It has to be Subjective.

[nesgirl119]

Originally posted by dreamboat As in Literate........Oh C'Mon.............Z=m26 etc................It has to be Subjective. Why does it have to be? I am simply taking out obvious answers!! Like if you can see something far away while sleeping, you are dreaming!!

[existenceisadream]

I personally can astral project and when I do it it sure in the hell feels like you leave you're body. But I know how easy it is for the mind or brain to make you feel something so it's possible the feeling is created by your brain and your desire to want this existence to be worth more than a meaningless life. Now for most of my life I've been a big skeptic of life after death (mostly beween the years of 13-22). Even when things would happen in my life that were for sure a true sign (I dreamed of my grandma's death at the excact moment she died in the room next to mine and I woke knowing for sure that she was dead before I even went into her room. Plus I had spiritual contact with her in the house several times in the days following her death) I would still go on believing that when I die I would truly not exist. Now I'm 25 and in the last year espiecally my views on life have taken a huge change. In the last year I have been learning how to astral project and OBE and it's opened my mind to the possibilities of what could be. I've been LD'ing for years but have always beleived it's entirely my brain creating it all but after astral projecting I'm not so sure of that anymore. I went through a while in the last year in which I fully beleived I was leaving my body and that astral projection and OBE is fully real. Now I'm to the point where I beleive anything can be possible but I won't put my full belief to anything anymore. I think it's possible that I'm leaving my body during Astral projection and dreaming and I think it's possible that it's all a hallucination created by my brain. How can we really believe fully in anything since it seems like everything that we've ever believed in ends up to be totally different than we had thought (I'm using "we" as in most the population because I bet there's people who knew it all along for sure). But I do have a very strong feeling in me (and I've never been religious or spiritual (but a little more spiritual in the last year) that there's life after death and that what we perceive is only a fraction of what there is in this whole existence. I think it would be illogical to have all these emotions, feelings, procreating and family for it to just end at anytime with nothing left. The dream of my grandma and having contact with her following her death is one thing in my life that makes it very hard not to beleive in an after life. By the way, she haunted the house for about 2 years after she died and then out of no where she decided to leave. Well I could go on and on and on in this kind of issue but this post it long enough already.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by lee i have explored Robert Bruce's website, astraldynamics.com or something like that, and somewhere in this site it talks about people who have projected and gone to a specific destination where a number code was in an isolated room and the projector saw it, woke up, and remembered the number code. *they either remembered it regular or completely backwards. *i wonder if that is true. *What do you guys think? It would be good to duplicate the studies of any of these merchandisers. Simply claiming such things is no doubt good for book sales and seminar bookings. I've heard it both ways -- that studies have shown that Near Death Experience People do not see Neon Signs up on top of the shelves in Surgery and Operating Rooms, and other studies that say they do. If anybody is proficient in Astral Projection, at the amateur level, then let himself project to the News Stand in the morning and see what the headlines are. No one else might believe you, but you would believe it.. you would believe yourself. Afterall, what is more important -- proving something is Real or knowing something is Real. You must Know these things for yourself. Only a fool would believe these people who make a racket out of it.

[existenceisadream]

Leo Wrote If anybody is proficient in Astral Projection, at the amateur level, then let himself project to the News Stand in the morning and see what the headlines are. No one else might believe you, but you would believe it.. you would believe yourself. Afterall, what is more important -- proving something is Real or knowing something is Real. You must Know these things for yourself. Only a fool would believe these people who make a racket out of it.[/b] I agree with you there. If you can't see it real for yourself then why put your faith in others claiming it to be true. That's why I have recently been changing my focus to these types of studies. Not reading about them but doing it. I've had one succesful outcome so far but I've only logged in one attempt. Plus there was a 1in 52 chance for getting the answer right so it's not solid enough evidence yet. In my other recent OBE's I never got to my target. I'll let you all know any more results that I get and believe me I'll not lie about the results. But just like the quote, don't take my word on it, find out for yourself.