How can you prevent OBEs?

**shadowofwind** · 04-11-2013 05:58 AM

Continuing on another aspect of this....In my astral projection experiences, my sense of touch was pretty much completely dissociated from my physical body. This sort of goes along with what I said about mental models. Gab, in your experience while awake, it sounds like you could still feel your physical body simultaneously. This seems to support the idea that the experience of the 'astral' body is more than a mistaken tactile hallucination of where your physical body is.

I didn't notice any vibration at all, but I wasn't paying attention to that either. Certainly there was no buzzing or large vibrations like some people experience. I've guessed that kind of vibration is due to sense of touch and/or hearing oscillating between two different states, rather than it being from feeling or hearing something that is vibrating. (In other words, its the sense that's vibrating in that case, not what is being sensed.) It sounds like the vibration that Gab experienced is different than that though.

It seems to me that a person ought to be able to feel that kind of vibration all the time, once a person knows what to pay attention to.

Gab, can you tell if the vibrations seem to become higher in frequency before you feel your astral body, or higher in amplitude? This is like the difference between higher pitch and higher volume. Both cases are higher energy. Don't go from what other people say, they don't have these kinds of distinctions straight.

If I think about feeling in my whole body at once , I can cause a sort of avalanche of feeling, like what some people call a full-body orgasm. This is particularly easy to do if I pay special attention to the top of my head and my spine. Experientially this would be an amplitude kind of thing, not frequency, but nerve impulses use higher frequency to represent stronger impressions. I'm guessing that the 'vibrations' you experience have either to do with nerve impulses or with how the information is represented in your mind, rather than a vibration of some thing that you're sensing. I don't think you can experience vibrations of particle physics, like in string theory, as vibrations of your astral body. I don't even think that would work for something like oscillations of electrons. The scale is completely different. Feeling that as a vibration would be like trying to build a working microscope out of bricks. I think the 'astral vibration' has to be some more macroscopic behavior of the astral body, like waves moving through it. In other words, the body is vibrating. If the matter itself is different from ordinary matter because of something having to do with vibrations, I don't think that it makes sense that those kinds of vibrations would be felt that way.

To understand any of this stuff, I think a starting point is to recognize that one's experience of one's physical body is a mental representation of one's physical body, that its not a direct experience of one's physical body. I think that if a person doesn't recognize that, or doesn't see any of the implications, then most conclusions they draw about astral reality are unavoidably wrong. As I've posted previously, the reason I care about this is I think that our whole astral paradigm with vibrations and whatnot is mostly wrong, and if someone could come up with a more realistic way of thinking about it, we would all have better experiences. Since this sort of thing is psychically shared, people who aren't interested in intellectual discussions wouldn't even have to think about it, but they'd still be able to imagine a better representation of the experience, in other words a better experience, based on what they feel about how other people think about it. Even the stuff about vibrations and finer bodies is a collection of thoughts that other people put thought into developing, and if they hadn't made that effort then we wouldn't even have that.

To try to better explain what I mean here by way of analogy....We are able to see using our eyes because natural selection trained the structure of the brain and the eye. It doesn't just happen by itself, if our eyes were not lenses for instance it wouldn't work at all. Then on top of that our brains had to teach themselves to make the right connections in infancy. Without that training you would be completely blind, even if your eye and brain started out fine. (This has been verified through sick sensory deprivation experiments with baby animals.) As a minor example of this, one of the last things to be learned is how to judge size and distance. I have a very vivid memory of seeing a bumble bee that was as big as a small rabbit - it really appeared to me that way. And I've seen other small children make similar mistakes, such as thinking they might fall into a small crack in the ground. With the astral stuff, even if our bodies are already designed by providence to be able to do this stuff, we still have to learn how. Its as if we're trying to see and we don't even have the shape of an eye, we have to imagine it into being. As a similar example, I think that a person who thinks in terms of signals being sent between people is probably at a big disadvantage in learning to share dreams, because that's not how it works. And someone who thinks in terms of 'me' and 'not me' can't do it as easily either. A lot of the steps we take are by providence, like an older person holding our hand, but we have to do the work of developing that kind of thinking ourselves or it won't stick. That's how it seems to me anyway.

**gab** · 04-11-2013 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

In my astral projection experiences, my sense of touch was pretty much completely dissociated from my physical body. This sort of goes along with what I said about mental models. Gab, in your experience while awake, it sounds like you could still feel your physical body simultaneously. This seems to support the idea that the experience of the 'astral' body is more than a mistaken tactile hallucination of where your physical body is.

In maybe 2 LD, I did feel my physical and dream body at the same time. I was simultaneously in the LD, doing my thing, and I was also avare and felt my physical body laying in bed. I think this happened, because my cat was leaning against me, so I didn't completely lose track of my sleeping body.

But in the experience from previous post, I felt only one body - dream/astral body. I knew there is another one right there, occupying same space, but I didn't feel it, and my perspective was from the dream body. At some point, the dream body started rotating with axes being in my torso, so the torso of both bodies was in same place, but my dream body head rotated over floor, and my feet were in the wall. (bed is against the wall)

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Gab, can you tell if the vibrations seem to become higher in frequency before you feel your astral body, or higher in amplitude? This is like the difference between higher pitch and higher volume. Both cases are higher energy. Don't go from what other people say, they don't have these kinds of distinctions straight.

My first vibrations was very intense. Since then, they are very gentle. Sometimes less, sometimes more intense. Pulsating very fast. Like when you put your hand on purring cat, but faster. Sorry, can't give you better answer. I'm not claiming it's the strings vibrating, in fact, I have no idea what these vibrations are. Or, what I percieve as vibrations. I would love to know. That's why I would love to have more OBEs. To explore and look for answers. Is there afterlife, who am I and why I'm here, what is the universe, are we rally just on one membrane, does universe have an end, is Earth a kindergarden for our souls to learn propper manners, before we go to better living in higher energy worlds...?

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

To understand any of this stuff, I think a starting point is to recognize that one's experience of one's physical body is a mental representation of one's physical body, that its not a direct experience of one's physical body. I think that if a person doesn't recognize that, or doesn't see any of the implications, then most conclusions they draw about astral reality are unavoidably wrong.

I understand what you saying. Same way as we don't see objects, we just "see" how our brain interprets what we see. maybe with practicing awareness and OBEs and meditation, I will be able to see things more for what they really are, rather than what my brain wants me to believe they are.

Each time when I had what I think was OBE, I felt only one body, hovering slightly above my sleeping body. I saw my room from this elevated perspective. But when WILDing, I feel as I'm in the same place, my perspective is from position of my physical head on a pillow. I take a leap of faith here, stand up and walk away.

Shadowofwind, I really like your posts. I wish, I could converse with you better on this interesting subject. But I was out of school long before string theory came out, so all I know is just from discovery and science channels. Thank you for posting.

**shadowofwind** · 04-12-2013 04:28 AM

Thanks for the thoughts Gab. It sounds then like our experience is very similar.

When asleep I'm also vaguely aware of my body, but the main way I reconcile the contradiction between that and my 'dream body' is I just don't imagine a dream body.

I did a quick calculation of what the frequency of an electron's spin would be (in the sense that it has spin) and got 2e50Hz. From an internet search, the frequency of the electron's "orbit" around a hydrogen atom is about 7e15 oscillations per second. I think that second number is about right, because it would be similar to the frequency of light that interacts with matter, and hydrogen is the smallest atom. Ultraviolet light, which is a little bit too high frequency to see, is about (3e8m/s)/150e-9m, which is 2e15Hz or 2000000000000000 oscillations per second. Astral matter is of course said to vibrate at an even higher frequency than normal matter.

A fluorescent lamp is 60 oscillations per second, which is near the limit of what most people can notice as a vibration. I'd guess that people's astral projection vibrations are a lot slower than that, maybe more like 10 or 20 per second.

It seems to me that the 'higher vibrations' meme started as a spiritual growth metaphor a hundred years ago when radio was cutting edge technology. People experience oscillations of their sensory imagination during astral projection, and radio waves are invisible, just like thoughts, and 'higher' is often a metaphor for 'better'.

I still think that something 'real' is happening during astral projection though.

One speculation I had was that the astral body is a physical body in a parallel world, but I don't think that can be right since a physical body shouldn't be able to levitate.

I suspect that whatever the truth is may not be very much like any of this, that astral phenomena might be a side effect of something else, and only appears as a side effect because we don't know how to think about that something else.

Anyway, I hope not to undermine anyone's spiritual experiences by saying these things, this is just my inept way of trying to get at the heavenly realities hiding behind our early attempts to conceive of them. I do agree that heavenly things are real, I'd go so far as to say that I know this, even if I don't know very much at all about what those things are.

I had a few other things to say, but I need to work, and I'll be pretty busy for a few days. So if I don't respond to something its not because I've lost interest. Thanks again for your thoughts.

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