dreaming more than one dream at a time

[shadowofwind]

When you dream you feel an impression of something, and it gets formed into a metaphorical image that fits the impression. Or maybe something like that. For a couple of years for me, for at least one dream a night, this process seemed carefully planned out, almost as if the dreams were pre-recorded. Often multiple things were blended into a single image. For instance, a person in a dream might represent several waking life people, and would exhibit a blend of characteristics from all of them. Or another, almost opposite way of looking at this, is the dream character would represent something common to the waking life people, that is expressed a little bit differently in all of them. But it would be brought into focus in a single dream image. Sometimes when one dream image wasn't adequate there would be a series of several short dream sequences which illustrate slightly different aspects of the same thing, from different perspectives, and often using very different metaphors. But the segments of dream were clear and distinct. Increasingly, I have noticed that many people dream of similar things, often at about the same time, and this isn't merely because of shared external stimuli. Deeply connected patterns are being formed into somewhat different images in a lot of different places. And its not just dreams that are like this, all objects and events are like this. My dreams aren't anywhere near as clear now as they were a couple of years ago, and seem to mostly lack evidence of careful planning. The meta-patterns behind the dreams seem closer to the surface somehow though. And they're not getting focused down to one specific image so much. In some instances there are two alternative interpretations of a dream detail expressed at the same time, almost like hearing different sounds at the same time, or going around both sides of an obstacle on a trail. Usually there aren't clear alternative interpretations like that though, its more of a cacophony of abstract and weird images that don't find their way into suitable metaphors taken from waking like. A couple of nights ago I had dreams that were like dozens of different related dreams being played all at once. It was a flickering mess, with metaphors changing as often as several times a second, even while an underlying story flowed along at a more life-like rate. I can't easily describe what the story was though, because the images were so strange, and I find them hard to remember with so little continuity in the pictures and sounds. Imagine some part of your character, or how you feel about something. Now imagine 20 other people who aren't quite like you, but who share something of that same kind of desire or love. Now imagine them not as 20 distinct people in different places, but as some kind of weird multi-dimensional embodiment of that shared quality, and try to visualize that somehow. Maybe that's somewhat like an impression from one of these dreams. Here are some weird but relatively describable dream images from a couple of nights ago that appeared briefly like islands in the surrounding mess. There is a quasi-omipotent, quasi-omniscient machine-like tyranny, which symbolically exists in orbit around the earth. A man is disloyal, so they change him so that he can't care about people, and they rape his sister. Then they torment him by turning his ability to care on and off, by pushing a button. I see genetically engineered monstrosities. Another man must work for them printing T-shirts, but he doesn't want to because its boring, so with his consent they put him into a pleasant coma from which he cranks out printed T-shirts displaying the required propaganda, along with other messages which are his thoughts. There's no picture of a man here, just a rapidly changing pile of T-shirts which occasionally looks like an elephant, because the man feels a bit elephant-like. Another personal spirit, as if from a past life, engages the man. Its sort of like a fight, but less angry, more like a sport or a reckoning day. The imagery in this part is just moving and changing shapes and colors. Afterwards there is something like a friendly kissing the side of an enormous leopard, though the cat is not quite what it is believed to be, and is not trustworthy. There are four men who have partially gained their freedom, but rather than staying in the partial sanctuary of earth, will travel commando-like into orbit where the corrupt overlords are, just to establish that men can. One of these men seems to me to be a cowardly, incurious kind of person, like someone who would get a job through nepotism and spend his life dreaming about his pension. Another has a more aggressive, intolerantly right-wing kind of mentality. A third man is me. Someone, maybe the first man perceives that Mexican's are illiterate, meaning something more like lack of interest in literature than inability to read. The second man declares that Mexicans are illiterate. I say that there is a wide range of different kinds of people in Mexico, so the population can't be characterized as literate or illiterate. The first man is uncomfortable with the overly analytical, complicated, or judgmental nature of my way of looking at things. The fourth man doesn't care about literacy or illiteracy, though its not because he's unintelligent or indifferent, he just has a different way of looking at things. If anything he's more compassionate than the other three of us. The tension between these four personalities supposedly makes us the perfect team to intrude into the domain of the orbital hegemony. I realize this must sound both vain and incoherent. There are a couple of other identifiable scenes also. A story that obliquely slanders my forefathers. The discovery of the remains of a murdered phoenix. Most of the rest I can't even make that much sense of. I think I was meandering towards some point, but its late, I have to work, and I've sort of lost interest for now, so I'll just stop there.

[Sageous]

Interesting... CG Jung would have called this a blending of archetypes, I think, though even he might have difficulty wrapping that staccato rhythm of varying metaphor in his general theory. Then again, maybe not -- by the end Jung had grown very open to his concept of collective consciousness being literal. Though I've never had rapid-fire "collective" dreams such as you describe here, I have had very similar notions while experiencing what I've come to call "other people's dreams," for lack of any better explanation. In my case the archetypes and schemata are blended much more slowly, and I tend to experience one or two "extra" dreams at a time -- though the presence of unknown DC's is limitless (as it likely is for everyone, for probably much more mundane psychological reasons). It can be a little unnerving at times, but honestly for me it has become annoying, mostly. I'm not sure if such a grinding of archetypes and schemata, no matter how rapid or strange, can be completely assumed as direct contact with other minds, or some literal rivulet of a stream of active collective consciousness. It could just be your own extremely active mind (not patronizing there, but complimenting) is firing off disparate images and schemata at a rate that is troubling for your waking awareness, but totally normal for your unconscious. That's just a suggestion, of course, as I would much rather agree that you are dipping a toe in that stream, and are just having trouble making sense of the roiling waters of other people's thoughts that you have contacted (or, as it were, are inadvertently contacting you)... I would much rather it be the latter choice, as you know, but sometimes the mundane explanations do work. That said, does such a grinding up of archetypes tack well with what you are saying, or are you going somewhere else altogether? I hope you'll elaborate, if you get a chance. Should you do so, please be gentle!

[shadowofwind]

by the end Jung had grown very open to his concept of collective consciousness being literal. That's nice to hear. I guess you've seen me rant about Jung before. I'm not sure if such a grinding of archetypes and schemata, no matter how rapid or strange, can be completely assumed as direct contact with other minds, or some literal rivulet of a stream of active collective consciousness. It could just be your own extremely active mind (not patronizing there, but complimenting) is firing off disparate images and schemata at a rate that is troubling for your waking awareness, but totally normal for your unconscious. I think there's a false dichotomy in there somewhere. Yes it is definitely my own extremely active mind. But somehow its an active mind that thinks a lot of things that are a part of a larger story. And that story has a coherence other than what is maintained by sending signals. It doesn't mean that whatever conclusions I may draw from any part of the universal story are necessarily correct. And I'm not suggesting that I'm experiencing other people's thoughts, even though it may sound like I was suggesting that. I'm not sure that I can explain what I think the difference is , not because its ineffable, but because I'm psychic in sort of in the same way that a guy who gets beat up a lot is an expert in kung fu. I don't think there's an essential difference between prophetic dreams, for instance, and non-prophetic dreams, except in the same sense that there are words strung into sentences that make sense, and other words strung into sentences that don't make as much sense. And there are louder words and softer words, and words read from teleprompters and words repeated from memory. But in all cases they are strings of words. Likewise, it seems to me that there's nothing especially transcendent about dreams or even thoughts, except that they are more flexible and sensitive in some regards than other objects and events. It seems you wish to ward against delusion by considering whether something is or is not supernatural, and being careful not to jump to conclusions. I try to ward against delusion also, obviously, but I not by trying to push an experience into one of those categories or the other. Obviously I often dispute people's interpretations of their dreams, even though I lack better interpretations. But I won't tell someone that a dream is 'just a dream' and has no relation to anything except through memories of sensory experiences, because nothing is like that, not dreams and not anything else. Obviously I shouldn't expect everyone else to agree with this, and I should often be willing to go over that ground when people want to. Its a question I asked a lot also. But now, for me personally, this question is answered, and its one of a very few questions that are answered. Maybe its some kind of consolation prize for spending the first part of my life exploring esoteric theology and then finding out that its mostly fabrications. That said, does such a grinding up of archetypes tack well with what you are saying, or are you going somewhere else altogether? I hope you'll elaborate, if you get a chance. Should you do so, please be gentle! You make me sound like an internet ass masher; the dork equivalent of a rock star who is willing to bless you backstage with some of his reflected light, at a price. Not what I aspired to when I was in heaven dreaming of life I hope. Anyway, thanks for the thoughts.

[Sageous]

Thanks for the clarification. A couple more thoughts, in no particular order: You make me sound like an internet ass masher; the dork equivalent of a rock star who is willing to bless you backstage with some of his reflected light, at a price. Not what I aspired to when I was in heaven dreaming of life I hope. Oops! My context for grinding dramatically predates current uses of the term.. sorry about that! It seems you wish to ward against delusion by considering whether something is or is not supernatural, and being careful not to jump to conclusions. I try to ward against delusion also, obviously, but I not by trying to push an experience into one of those categories or the other. Obviously I often dispute people's interpretations of their dreams, even though I lack better interpretations. But I won't tell someone that a dream is 'just a dream' and has no relation to anything except through memories of sensory experiences, because nothing is like that, not dreams and not anything else. Yes, I think I do that. But what I'm careful to avoid is settling on that "most obvious" solution as the only possible truth. Instead, I use it as a base, for sanity and for argument, from which I'm more than happy to stray if circumstances, evidence, and my imagination, permit. And I'm not suggesting that I'm experiencing other people's thoughts, even though it may sound like I was suggesting that. I'm not sure that I can explain what I think the difference is , not because its ineffable, but because I'm psychic in sort of in the same way that a guy who gets beat up a lot is an expert in kung fu. Much as you got me with the analogy, this unfortunately is what I'm most interested in here, as it seems a rich source for information or maybe personal assurances. So, if you've got any legible anecdotes or analogies, feel free to share -- even the kung-fu victim was there, first hand, after all! I don't think there's an essential difference between prophetic dreams, for instance, and non-prophetic dreams, except in the same sense that there are words strung into sentences that make sense, and other words strung into sentences that don't make as much sense. And there are louder words and softer words, and words read from teleprompters and words repeated from memory. But in all cases they are strings of words. Likewise, it seems to me that there's nothing especially transcendent about dreams or even thoughts, except that they are more flexible and sensitive in some regards than other objects and events. I find myself agreeing with this, but we both know I don't. Curious. Maybe it's that this paragraph forms a baseline for all dreams (and thought), from which I try to build. Maybe it's because that is how I consider all dreams after they've shifted their status to memories upon waking: if you are remembering a dream, there is no difference between, for instance, prophetic and non-prophetic dreams. This is because they earn those titles after you wake up and spend some time putting those words into an "order" that makes sense, based on that day's personal intellectual leanings... meaning is attached post-facto, second hand. I agree with that, and that is why I am often troubled by interpretations of dreams (even my own), because it allows waking-life proclivities input, and that can lead to some mis-mixing of those words. In other words, waking-life interpretations of dreams, though often helpful, correctly introspective, and therapeutic, may have nothing at all to do with the actual nature of the dream itself, as it happened, words intact ... this in no way makes the dream meaningless; just meaning potentially something else. [This by the way is my guess as to one reason Jung developed his archetypes theory, as that, to him, offers a tool for sidestepping this problem of interpreting memories] That said, where I stray from this thought is that I consider (okay, I hope) that perhaps the words form a base. If you can experience the words as they are happening, absorb their meaning in the order your unconscious (or whoever) presents them, in the context of the dream itself, then there may be transcendental opportunities. Who knows? The words might become The Word, if given careful direct attention -- this I believe cannot happen in retrospect upon waking; we've just got too much baggage to muck up the memory. Oh. and yes, even if you can experience the words in their actual form, you still run the risk of reinterpreting the memory of that experience, so this whole thing could well be moot. Hope does that sometimes.

[shadowofwind]

Sageous, I'm with you that you can't interpret the words and images correctly without being present in the underlying experience. Where this is different for me, is the underlying experience doesn't go away when I'm awake. And remembering the words and images can help move my mind there. That's not what I was trying to say about prophetic and non-prophetic dreams though. My analogy with words was probably ill chosen because its too close to the subject its supposed to represent. Trying again: There are no events which are not reflective of the 'deeper' reality, whether you're aware of it or not. Yes a prophetic dream feels different than a non-prophetic one when you're having it, and for me the memory feels a lot different too. But this is because there's a connection that is more conscious, direct, and perhaps easier to make accurate sense of as a prophecy, and not because the the non-prophetic dream is 'random' or unconnected to anything deeper. Maybe this has been a major lesson for me in the past year or two. Almost all of the metaphors which I previously would have gotten in transcendent-feeling dreams have been showing up in waking life experiences instead. The hawk killing the squirrel and hanging it on the fence where I had just climbed over would be one example. My point is that everything is like that, notwithstanding that if you try to interpret all your mundane experiences as messages from God you're going to interpret them incorrectly almost all of the time. Events do all mean something, in the sense that they're a part of a larger story, even though they usually don't mean anything that makes sense as a 'sign from heaven'.