How can I easily reach Sleep paralysis?

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Shadowofwind: I think you guys might do well to show a little more fortitude with your criticisms of sleep paralysis. Though I don't read the lucid dreaming forums, in the two years since we've joined there hasn't really been that much discussion of sleep paralysis in the 'beyond dreaming' forum, and this is the most appropriate forum for it to be in since its sought as a step to 'OBE' experiences. And if any part of your reluctance to take a frankly stated position and stand behind it is due to the weakness of that position, then so much the better, its an opportunity for improvement.

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A little more fortitude? You definitely don't spend a lot of time in the Lucid Dreaming section of the forum, then! Over the last year, folks like Mzzkc, Zoth, the DV staff (mostly Gab, bless her), and myself have made many, many efforts to unravel the SP myth, and to find its most useful position in the world of dreaming (like as a steppingstone for OBE's, or properly defining SP as HH or awareness of REM Atonia). That effort has spanned numerous threads and spawned more than a couple aimed right at properly defining sleep paralysis and SP. Fortitude, especially by Gab, Zoth, and Sivason, is an understatement. I personally am tired of trying, as the energy to propel the mythology of SP is inexorable.

Funny, though, that there isn't much discussion of SP in the Beyond Dreaming forum, where discussion of it indeed ought to belong. The concept has been so embedded in the lexicon that few consider it "beyond" dreaming at all. I guess the main battle line has been in the Lucid Dreaming section, because there actually is an argument for including SP in Beyond Dreaming conversations (though I would still list caveats there, as well).

I actually think we are making huge steps forward. Anymore most people can just be refered to the explaination thread, and they have their answer and move on. That is some progress. Very rarely do I run into someone who still wants to worry about it after that. One of the threads you are refering to went just that way. OP=SP? I am scared. Me: read this thread, link. Them: Thanks, that cleared it up,,, the end. So I thinkthatis progress. It was almost daily before that people made threads about it.

I accept that if Shadoewofwind read my post as passive aggressive, the I could have worded it better. It was not meant to be. If the guy wants to induce SP, then good for him, even if I do not know why. I actually look at almost everything as a way to fill time and attention. This includes church, LDing, reading,,,, and just about anything other than biological functions. If someone thinks I need to value their hobby, then they are insecure or something else I do not understand. Some people fill their time and attention with sports, others with dressing dolls,,, what ever, itis all just a means of filling in the 1-98 years they are incarnated here.

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Originally Posted by sivason

I actually think we are making huge steps forward. Anymore most people can just be refered to the explaination thread, and they have their answer and move on. That is some progress. Very rarely do I run into someone who still wants to worry about it after that. One of the threads you are refering to went just that way. OP=SP? I am scared. Me: read this thread, link. Them: Thanks, that cleared it up,,, the end. So I thinkthatis progress. It was almost daily before that people made threads about it.

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That is progress, isn't it? I guess my jaundiced eye saw the phrase "get to SP" quite often recently, and in my cynicism failed to notice that they did accept clarification more frequently ... come to think of it, I have noticed a lot of posts that begin with something like "I know it isn't important for LD'ing, but I have a question about SP," which represents real progress indeed.

In that case, nice work, DV Staff; keep it up!

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Originally Posted by Sageous

A little more fortitude? You definitely don't spend a lot of time in the Lucid Dreaming section of the forum, then!

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Fair enough. Yes I never read that forum at all, since I'm not interested in lucid dreaming in the way many people here are, and didn't feel like endless arguments with skeptics every time I bring an unfamiliar element into the discussion.

I think that if people have tried to counter the sleep paralysis glamor by branding it as a medical condition that's not quite right though. I know you didn't refer to it that way, but it was treated that way earlier in the thread. If its a medical condition, then lucid dreaming is a medical condition too, at least the way I do it.

I saw this before a few weeks ago, when someone moved a sleep paralysis question to this forum from the lucid dreaming forum, they declared it to be a medical condition completely unrelated to lucid dreaming. It seemed strange to me, remarkably like a religious person declaring an idea they dislike to be the work of the devil. Though the sleep paralysis proponents may be incorrigible anyway, certainly they're not going to be swayed by arguments that they correctly perceive to be dogmatically dismissive that way.

Maybe I wouldn't say this if I were better informed about past sleep paralysis arguments, but it seems to me that part of the reason 'DreamViews' people are sensitive about the sleep paralysis issue, is some of the arguments against pursuit of sleep paralysis also apply in some degree to lucid dreaming.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I think that if people have tried to counter the sleep paralysis glamor by branding it as a medical condition that's not quite right though. I know you didn't refer to it that way, but it was treated that way earlier in the thread. If its a medical condition, then lucid dreaming is a medical condition too, at least the way I do it.

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True. I think we did originally try calling SP the awareness of REM Atonia (which it pretty much is, in LD'ing context, and according to LaBerge, who started this nonsense -- and regrets it), and that may have escalated over time to trying to differentiate the actual disorder known as sleep paralysis (there really is one) from the stuff we talk about here.

Though I'd bet I could safely argue that LD'ing is a medical condition, especially in children and other accidental LD'ers, I think it is a little different in our context. This is because LD'ing, and its benefits, is the overall goal that is reached with a lot of work and rewarded with excellent adventures upon achievement, while sleep paralysis is simply a noticed moment of normal sleep that really has nothing to do with that goal. In other words, we want to be working toward LD'ing here, and not toward SP.

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I saw this before a few weeks ago, when someone moved a sleep paralysis question to this forum from the lucid dreaming forum, they declared it to be a medical condition completely unrelated to lucid dreaming. It seemed strange to me, remarkably like a religious person declaring an idea they dislike to be the work of the devil. Though the sleep paralysis proponents may be incorrigible anyway, certainly they're not going to be swayed by arguments that they correctly perceive to be dogmatically dismissive that way.

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There is a chance that, in the effort to dismiss the importance of SP to LD'ing, it might get treated that way during a fit of hyperbole, or perhaps as a result of repeating over and over that SP doesn't matter. But I don't think dogmatic dismissiveness for the sake of dogmatic dismissiveness was ever the intention. Good point, though.

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Maybe I wouldn't say this if I were better informed about past sleep paralysis arguments, but it seems to me that part of the reason 'DreamViews' people are sensitive about the sleep paralysis issue, is some of the arguments against pursuit of sleep paralysis also apply in some degree to lucid dreaming.

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That I think nicely summarizes the problem! Over the years, SP has been raised to the same level of importance and priority as LD'ing, especially among the novices (because of what they've read, and because they often have brief moments of REM Atonia that frighten or excite them). Making arguments in favor of pursuing what amounts to a single step in the process of just one of the forms of LD'ing (WILD/DEILD) doesn't make sense to me. Even if it's an important step in OBE's and AP, SP would not be the end, but a portion of the means. To make it the same as LD'ing is the mistake I'm most interested in correcting. Good point again!

Shadowofwind, it actually is a medical condition. I say that based on it being a diagnosis in medical books. A true honest medical condition out of the medical books. One of two things happen here. One is that LDers call all manner of sleep states SP despite it having a clear formal medical definition that the thing they describe does not meet. The other is someone who actually has the medical condition, and wants advice.

So you can say "the thing these guys incorrectly call SP should not be dismissed as a medical condition" but if we go by the actual meaning of SP then it is clearly a medical condition just like clinical depression or a broken leg.

^^ For what it's worth, I just hopped over to WeBMD and found their confirmation of this. I also did a quick search and lucid dreaming is definitely not listed. ;)

Sivason,

You must be aware that what gets defined as a medical condition often has as much to do with health and insurance industry politics as with logic. And there isn't a well defined line that separates the medical 'sleep paralysis' from what other people are trying to talk about. Almost all words have multiple, closely related meanings, and almost nothing we discuss here has a single, completely adequate definition. Even the term 'lucid dreaming' is misleading and inadequate. Though the definition seems concise enough for people who dream in a certain way, it fails for other people's experiences.

Part of honest discussion is making a good-faith guess about how another person is using words, and engaging with that. Its BS to insist that everyone's words be interpreted according to a set of definitions that precludes what your opponent is trying to communicate. As far as I can tell Sageous has exactly the same stance on sleep paralysis that you have, but he's not using that device to try to control the dialogue in a way that's favorable to his position.

I realize that your insistence that people use the 'sleep paralysis' words correctly isn't much different from what I do when people throw around words like 'vibrational frequency'. And the way they use the words tends to obscure the facts of what they're dealing with, which I guess is your point. And of course I started off by defending your criticism as being well founded. But it seemed to me that there were good points on both sides, even though I probably agree with your side more. So I made some effort towards addressing the reasons for the gap, even though that usually just unites everyone in their annoyance at me.

If you look back at my posts prior to a year ago, you will see that I let people mis-use the term and made my best guess at what they probably were refering to. I do a highly advanced form of WILD that requires a step where you feel the chemical changes induced by bodily sleep. In that stage (I am still not sure if it is actually defined by any term) you have such a reduced amount of bodily awareness that moving will require focused attention, basically choosing to wake yourself. I would try to tell students some logic that would incorperate the mis-use of SP, so they would not argue (they expected SP). I would say, here is how you know you have reached SP, but never try to test it. Do not test it, because you will be able to move and moving will break it.
I am fairly confident that that stage is what others are calling SP. I tried re-educating the forum, by explaining that what they called "SP" could be broken by intent, and there fore any attempt to confirm SP by trying to move would set back their WILD attempt. People want to reach a state where they can not move. The state they should be seeking only prevents dream based stimulation of waking motor response. Testing the state by moving leads to failed WILDs.
I just attempted as a teacher to accept the fact that they wanted to call the state I refer to as SP, which made little sense to me, but hey, whatever. I just taught using their inncorrect term, with added caution that it was not actually paralysis. I probably helped a few people with this logic.
Then Sageous started saying he thought the mis-use was harmful and how he wished no one had ever started the whole mess. He also said he thought it could no longer be corrected. Well hell, why not try the impossible? I found out Myzzk and Zoth felt the same way, so I pushed for a refromation. In that sense perhaps some of us sound like zealots. We are attempting to fix a problem that makes it hard for us to teach. The world of DV only has so many good teachers and we are vexed by everyone confusing the heck out beginners with this issue.
The approach is supposed to be simple, refer them to an informative thread, and refuse to accept the term to be used for any other sleep state. People can mis use it, but they will likely have Sageous, a DG or Mod refer them to the correct information.

First off. Thank you shadowofwind.

I'm going to try and make this my last post on this thread, so I don't piss anybody else off.

When I made my first post all I was trying to do was help the original thread creator. He asked a question, a question that I am able to help him with. People like sivasion automatically shot him down saying it wasn't possible at all. Obviously siv is not very up to date on the effects, causes or anything at all that has to do with SP. No matter how much he says he is.

If I would have completely ignored my first bout of SP I might have not experienced it anymore at all... but i studied literature on it and started working on being able to induce it. Which I can. Anybody can if they try hard enough, just like with Lucid Dreaming.

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Originally Posted by sivason

I would say, here is how you know you have reached SP, but never try to test it. Do not test it, because you will be able to move and moving will break it.

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I assume you don't really mean the never here? If they test it, and they wake up, they've just traded one night in exchange for discovering that they can move in that state and that trying to move will wake them up. Then if that same person ever finds themselves in a state where they can't move, they can tell you about that and you can trust that they know what they're talking about. Not a bad haul for one night I don't think.

If their mental abilities are so weak and erratic that they persist in testing it every time, even though they've already explored that and you've told them that something more interesting waits if they don't move, then I don't really see the point of the whole enterprise. It could be like a rite of passage. If they're not competent to understand something that trivial, then they're not qualified to take the class. If they're that intellectually undeveloped when they're awake, what can they possibly gain by following your directions that they're not likely to hurt themselves with? Unless the goal is for you to be a teacher with students, and their goal is to be a student with a teacher. In that case what a person does with their time really is all the same, except that a hobby like doll dressing would be a lot safer.

To briefly review where I'm coming from here....I encountered people who wanted to be spiritual teachers, and I took their assumed competence at face value. I didn't even practice anything in the conventional sense, but I listened to and thought about what they had to say with an open mind, and it changed me. It raped me. Not only is my personal mental experience permanently changed, my fate is changed too. Stuff happens to me every day that's outside of my control, and which would not be happening were I someone else who I can now never be.

Speech on these subjects is not just free speech, its speech that does something. If your thinking opens a chakra too soon you can't just close it again and have it be the same as it was, its not reversible like that. And lucid dreaming is like this also, its almost a kind of mental yoga. Lazy and insincere people may be protected to some extent by the shallowness of their attention, but for open, innocent people the shaft goes in deep.

In a karmic sense I can't say I've been wronged, or that I'm worse off as a result of what I've experienced. In memory I was never innocent, and I've always preferred exploration and change to safety. But I can say without a doubt that its wrong to set oneself up as a teacher with the implication that you have more mastery of understanding of a subject and its implications than you actually have. I'm not alleging you're doing that with lucid dreaming, since I haven't paid attention to what you teach. But this pattern is almost universal with esoteric and occult teachers, and it pisses me off, and I see several of the signs here. So I am suggesting that it may be a possibility. I'd say the same thing to Sageous.

I understand that sometimes you just have to do stuff, you can't wait until you understand everything before you start living. Doing stuff is part of how you get the strength and experience to understand more. So in that sense, teaching something you're not totally on top of yourself is unavoidable and necessary. But there's a pretty high cost to not being completely straight with people about this, and the student pays an awfully big part of it. And there's another side too, gaining new understanding and correcting errors in understanding. The world is full of teachings, and people who disbelieve those teachings. But it seems almost nobody cares about making those teachings better, except insofar as its a part of establishing their own brand. Where can I go, for instance, to talk to someone who knows something about raja yoga but who isn't pushing a dogma, who is willing to interact without me prostrating my mind to their chosen power structure? Nowhere that I can find. The world's 'free thinkers' who are interested in such subjects mostly seem to be people who are trying to set themselves up at the top of their own power structures. Meanwhile, we have almost no idea what's going on during astral projection, for instance. We have scarcely any idea what astral matter is, and only a few very vague, flawed ideas about how it interacts with our physical world and with our minds. If someone wants to experiment with it and find out more, then God bless them, and I'm grateful for their sacrifice. But if they presume to teach other people that cultivating the practice is safe, when we barely even know what it is, and pretty much all we know about safety is that none of us have died in a mishap while doing it, then I have a problem with that. We understand that its safe in the sense that you're not going to get physically killed by a demon, or trapped outside of your body. But when the gods kill that's generally not how its done anyway, its a lot more subtle than that. It takes a lot longer to see the effects, and they might be difficult or impossible to connect unambiguously with their cause.

For the most part this stuff is not a hobby for me, to fill my time and attention. If that's what it is for you, then I think that's an insufficiently responsible attitude to have when teaching it. I don't believe that's all it is for you either though.


I don't think that I can move my physical body while astral projecting. I'm sure this is not a medical condition, that its just in the nature of what I'm doing. It would be a medical condition if it happened a lot when I didn't want it to, but the same could be said for practically anything. Maybe I could learn to move my physical body while astral projecting, but it would be a matter of doing two different things at once, a bit like trying to use my eyes independently. I'm not interested in persuing that right now though, it seems like the wrong thing at the wrong time.

As usual, I apologize for my aggressive tone. When I'm being passive aggressive, I always add a double dose of active aggressive to go with it. Part of that's just my own deformity. Part if its because our goals really do conflict in certain regards, and there's no way to speak to that without some of that conflict coming to the surface.

^^ Outstanding post, Shadowofwind, and I sincerely hope Sivason responds and is able to shrug off your signature tone, as he should. I do want to butt in an comment about teaching, though:

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

...But I can say without a doubt that its wrong to set oneself up as a teacher with the implication that you have more mastery of understanding of a subject and its implications than you actually have. I'm not alleging you're doing that with lucid dreaming, since I haven't paid attention to what you teach. But this pattern is almost universal with esoteric and occult teachers, and it pisses me off, and I see several of the signs here. So I am suggesting that it may be a possibility. I'd say the same thing to Sageous.

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This is a good point, and one that represents a real danger in teaching: When a teacher is trying to teach someone something, anything, that teacher must instill in the student a palpable sense that the teacher is an expert at whatever he is teaching, or at least is far more knowledgeable than the student. There are a few rare exceptions to this rule, for instance there are some teachers who possess the talent to ask the right questions and let the students learn on their own regardless of the teachers' knowledge, but generally a mastery or, at minimum, an understanding of the material must be projected in order for the teacher to maintain credibility and get the students to listen. This holds in the esoteric trade as well, in spite of the vagueness of that knowledge in general.

This is a delicate situation, because I personally subscribe to the adage that "Those who can't, teach," so to me there are a great many teachers out there who lack even a curiosity about their subject, much less mastery or strong knowledge. A teacher who lacks solid understanding of a subject will often find himself clinging dogmatically to the few things he reasonably understands or spiritually accepts just to maintain that necessary air of superiority -- at the expense or omission of other things. The teacher may initially be doing this in good faith and with the best of intentions, but his choice risks closing his mind to new ideas, or, worse, convincing his students to close their minds (usually very loudly). This is not a good thing, and rarely ends well for the teachers, the students, and the subject.

This is why I don't like to consider myself a teacher, but more a student who might have a few things to share with fellow students, and who knows he has something to learn from them as well. Indeed, the reason I participate here at DV is to learn, not teach, and the day I have nothing more to learn here (or discover that I was never learning anything at all) is the day I stop signing in. That sounds selfish, I know, but it seems a fair exchange and much less karmically risky than assuming airs of a master and deigning to teach my doctrine (if I had a doctrine, and even if that doctrine turned out to be correct). If I ever seem like I'm doing that, it was not intentional and I have corrected myself when I caught myself erring in that direction.

That's my take, anyway. I don't know why, but I felt a need to share. And Sivason, if you read this, be assured that this post in no way references your teaching skills, mastery, or positions on this thread -- that bit is up to you!

To protect myself from such issues I teach anonymously, for free, on the internet. I am the type who could and would be able to establish a cult of "followers" in real life, just like my first teacher still maintains. I however, do not do that. I have something rare of value, and offer it for free. I undersell myself. I do not feel like talking about myself in that regard. Sorry that you have a traumatic past with teachers. I did offer to help you with yoga, and you attacked me for sounding like I thought I was superior. I certainly did not push any kind of dogma at you. you just have a defensive knee jerk reaction to terms like teacher. I hate this conversation, because I do not want to talk about me. If someone does not think what I teach has value, that is up to them. If the very act of referring to myself or Sageous as a 'teacher' is somehow a sign of being morally corrupt or arrogant, I do not know what to say.

Here is a story. One of my later teachers got angry with me because I insisted on wearing a white belt. He insisted that I wear articles of rank. I claimed I did not want the ego that goes along with demonstration of rank, and that if he wanted me to teach, it would be on equal footing with the students. He was the first man to make me see another way. He told me I had no choice if I wanted to stay, but to wear any honorific device he chose to put on me. He stated that students needed to clearly know I was on a level worthy of their respect as a teacher. He also stated that if anyone saw the things I could do and believed that I was anything short of a teacher, then they would be disheartened, because if another student was already that accomplished, then what chance did they have. So I swallowed my aversion to titles and let him dress me up however he wanted.

This is my first time joing a 'chat' site,never been to computer literate,so bare with me,lol. At first I was gona say "why the hell would u wanna experience sleep paralysis?''then I read read ur thingy'. I actually have about 5-10 episodes of slee(S.P. u call it) every year. Its literally the scariest shit ive ever experienced in my entire life!! Ya wake up and yout totally paralyzed!! The only part of my body I can move is my lungs to breathe, and my eyes to look around.But its not so much the 'not being able to move that's scary,its like, that paranoid feeling you get when ur in an intense horribl nightmare...BUT YOUR AWAKE.it actually feels like theres a presence in the room!!An evil, scray 'going to come over and hurt you/suffocate you' type of presence! Its actually hard to explain. but I honestly kinda feel like what u said, call me crazy but even though its that scariest thing I ever experience...I kinda look forward to them. And as for inducing them,i do not know how.It just happens. What I have noticed though, it happens more(almost always when im sleeping flat on my back, or if I eat likea apeanut butter n jelly sandwich right before I go to sleep,maybe something about the protein...?) but yea.thats about all I go for now.

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Originally Posted by Shalashaska

First off. Thank you shadowofwind.

I'm going to try and make this my last post on this thread, so I don't piss anybody else off.

When I made my first post all I was trying to do was help the original thread creator. He asked a question, a question that I am able to help him with. People like sivasion automatically shot him down saying it wasn't possible at all. Obviously siv is not very up to date on the effects, causes or anything at all that has to do with SP. No matter how much he says he is.

If I would have completely ignored my first bout of SP I might have not experienced it anymore at all... but i studied literature on it and started working on being able to induce it. Which I can. Anybody can if they try hard enough, just like with Lucid Dreaming.

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Are you a troll, a child or a troll child? Why are you talking about me? Please attempt to justify your slander of me by quoting where I said it could not be induced,where I even really talked about any details of SP, and if you can quote anything I actually said about SP, how about you prove it wrong with some clear intelligent statement. I was helping someone understand a bit about how he should go about looking further into OBE.

Sivason,

My discomfort about accepting your offer to help with yoga had little to do with you sounding like you think you're superior. It was mostly a matter of reluctance to engage in that degree of intimacy with a stranger whom I didn't feel a sufficient degree of familiarity and comfort with. I was quite clear about this, and can drag up the old messages and show you if you want.

Here's a major part of why I think you do not like talking about yourself, why you hate this conversation: Although you do have something rare of value, you are also in some regards far less developed than you believe yourself to be or wish for yourself to be. At times you try to apply yourself inappropriately in relation to other people, then you take it as an affront to your presumed esteem when someone pushes back on that.

I realize I'm being far more direct here than most people are comfortable with, and more critical than would be helpful with most people. But whether I am right or wrong in my perception, you who would teach yoga and who undersells yourself should be able to handle it. Respond if you will to the actual arguments I made about sleep paralysis. Or if you doubt that the arguments I'm making are the real ones in my mind and heart, then speculate what they really are, and we can go there too. But this will only work if you can stay with it. If you make an argument, then I make what I think is a sound counterargument or clarification, then you move on to something else without acknowledging it one way or another....maybe I shouldn't try to explain how that looks. Though granted its hard to follow up on every point because it takes way too much time.

If you're not comfortable talking about you, we can talk about me instead if you want. I can handle it. Or we can go to private messages if you prefer, rather than airing this publicly. Or we can just forget it. But it seems a waste to me, that no would-be yogi can stomach being challenged by any perspective from outside of the path that they have built themselves on. I would actually like to learn more from you if possible. But there's not much you can do for me unless you can engage at the level that I'm speaking to you on. You seem to have ignored most of the substance of what I said.

Sageous clearly doesn't want to fight with you here. But if he thought I was full of nonsense I don't think he would have complimented my posts the way he did. Since you're both on the same side, maybe he can explain it to you better privately, if you care to ask and he cares to do that. I'm about 80% in agreement with your criticism of sleep paralysis, which is why I started off defending it. But the effort I made to acknowledge what I see as legitimate in Shalashaska's view doesn't seem to have gone over too well.

Easiest way to find yourself in REM Atonia in my experience is to wake up multiple times throughout the night. From there, either try lightly mentally stimulating yourself as you are falling back to sleep, getting up after waking up to pee or get a drink, or doing reverse blinking. Just remember it's crucial to actually be falling back to sleep, so don't make yourself lose any sleep over this other than a few minutes to wake up every 90 minutes to an hour and a half or so. It's a very passive skill, you can't actively be trying to get into REM Atonia if that makes any sense.

OK, someone is deleting my posts now, and not the inflammatory ones. Sageous, it looks like your side will win the sleep paralysis argument after all, but not by reasoned discussion.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

OK, someone is deleting my posts now, and not the inflammatory ones. Sageous, it looks like your side will win the sleep paralysis argument after all, but not by reasoned discussion.

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Oh my! There's got to be an error; I don't think any of us were saying things that merit deletion....

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Originally Posted by snoop

Easiest way to find yourself in REM Atonia in my experience is to wake up multiple times throughout the night. From there, either try lightly mentally stimulating yourself as you are falling back to sleep, getting up after waking up to pee or get a drink, or doing reverse blinking. Just remember it's crucial to actually be falling back to sleep, so don't make yourself lose any sleep over this other than a few minutes to wake up every 90 minutes to an hour and a half or so. It's a very passive skill, you can't actively be trying to get into REM Atonia if that makes any sense.

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here we go. Very good advice. I can agree with all of this. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Oh my! There's got to be an error;

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Yeah maybe so. The last time I had a post disappear after it was up at DreamViews it was at the outset of that hacker takeover though. Which I guess says something positive.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

OK, someone is deleting my posts now, and not the inflammatory ones. Sageous, it looks like your side will win the sleep paralysis argument after all, but not by reasoned discussion.

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I can see any deleted posts. And there is not one. It must just be a glitch in your computer or something. Please type it again. No one would delete a post.

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Originally Posted by sivason

I can see any deleted posts. And there is not one. It must just be a glitch in your computer or something. Please type it again. No one would delete a post.

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OK, that's good to hear. I just offered to answer for Shalashaska if you want me too. He obviously doesn't want to fight, once he recovered from his initial reaction, and even though he couldn't resist a parting shot. Although I don't completely agree with his point of view, I'm pretty sure I understand it. Or we can just let it go now, I really only had two things I wanted to say, and I've said them. And I think his main point about sleep paralysis has been expressed also.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Sivason,

My discomfort about accepting your offer to help with yoga had little to do with you sounding like you think you're superior. It was mostly a matter of reluctance to engage in that degree of intimacy with a stranger whom I didn't feel a sufficient degree of familiarity and comfort with. I was quite clear about this, and can drag up the old messages and show you if you want.

Here's a major part of why I think you do not like talking about yourself, why you hate this conversation: Although you do have something rare of value, you are also in some regards far less developed than you believe yourself to be or wish for yourself to be. At times you try to apply yourself inappropriately in relation to other people, then you take it as an affront to your presumed esteem when someone pushes back on that.

I realize I'm being far more direct here than most people are comfortable with, and more critical than would be helpful with most people. But whether I am right or wrong in my perception, you who would teach yoga and who undersells yourself should be able to handle it. Respond if you will to the actual arguments I made about sleep paralysis. Or if you doubt that the arguments I'm making are the real ones in my mind and heart, then speculate what they really are, and we can go there too. But this will only work if you can stay with it. If you make an argument, then I make what I think is a sound counterargument or clarification, then you move on to something else without acknowledging it one way or another....maybe I shouldn't try to explain how that looks. Though granted its hard to follow up on every point because it takes way too much time.

If you're not comfortable talking about you, we can talk about me instead if you want. I can handle it. Or we can go to private messages if you prefer, rather than airing this publicly. Or we can just forget it. But it seems a waste to me, that no would-be yogi can stomach being challenged by any perspective from outside of the path that they have built themselves on. I would actually like to learn more from you if possible. But there's not much you can do for me unless you can engage at the level that I'm speaking to you on. You seem to have ignored most of the substance of what I said.

Sageous clearly doesn't want to fight with you here. But if he thought I was full of nonsense I don't think he would have complimented my posts the way he did. Since you're both on the same side, maybe he can explain it to you better privately, if you care to ask and he cares to do that. I'm about 80% in agreement with your criticism of sleep paralysis, which is why I started off defending it. But the effort I made to acknowledge what I see as legitimate in Shalashaska's view doesn't seem to have gone over too well.

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I am fine with that. We barely knew each other then, and you have an interesting take on things. I will accept that me being too forward is why you got upset. As far as talking about myself, I consider you, Sageous and Gab to be part of my inner circle, so to speak. Any of you 3 are entitled to know any part of my story, but only through PM. So please never feel I am hiding anything from you. I am unable to figure out a way to publicly talk about my interesting life that will not sound like I am showing off, making stuff up, or it may simply make others feel separate from me. I want to maintain a chummy every guy feeling with the forum. Maybe I already suck at that, but I try.

I guess I got distracted by your teachers are pushing an agenda, and the hint of a suggestion that I may not be qualified to teach post.

I know you made a valuable point about someone experimenting with trying to move, while in the state people are mistakenly calling SP. I did not literally mean they should never try it as an experiment. What was happening is that beginners were failing their WILDs over and over again, because they would always try to move. They would say, I was 100% sure I had reached SP, so I tried to prove it by trying to turn over. then I was able to turn over and the state disappeared. I would tell them the stuff I mentioned above.

As far as you suggesting it can be induced because it is a part of OBE, I am saying it is either the state I refer to (that is not SP) that is used in OBE, or that anyone who does use SP has a medical condition they are using, and it is not useful for anyone else. The guy who wanted to argue, says he experienced it PRIOR to his study of it, then says anyone can do it. IF he claims to know this because HE can do it,,, well I claim he already had it as a condition, so what does his experience prove?



---But it seems a waste to me, that no would-be yogi can stomach being challenged by any perspective from outside of the path that they have built themselves on.--- I am very open to any challenges about things I say. I just think at some point it is ok to refer to people as teachers, but that is old news. I do shy away from talk about me,,, but maybe in my deluded way that is a form of humility rather than anything bad. Challenge away.