difference of LD and OBE

[Bosco]

I had this dream the other night were i was talking to me friend who is an experienced LDer and has had OBE's and i asked him what is the difference between a lucid dream and an out of body experience and his answer was that when u havea OBE everything goes quite and black for a few seconds then you are out of ur body and when you have a lucid dream u just know your dreaming....i know this is probably not right but it was a very interesting dream because i was talking about dreams and OBEs while in a dream

[LucidDreamGod]

Well thats correct obe's are said to start out with you being at a total loss of consciousness for a breif period of time, you say your friend told you that in a dream? personaly I'm open minded to OBE's I've only had one point were I thought it was an OBE I do believe it's possible. The diffrents is that OBE's are a projection of the consciousness out of your head, and lucid dreams are inside your mind, an OBE is a stable experience of the physical world, and an LD is an unstable one that is changable, in other words you can't use dream control in a OBE

[Bosco]

yea he did tell me that in a dream...we arent like really good friends or nehtintg but we both know of lucid dreaming and obes and have talked about it many times...the whole concept is wierd

[The Blue Meanie]

Okay, this is just my perspective. OBE's are merely lucid dreams, predominantly WILDs, accoumpanied by a false awakening. I've experienced this myself, and am fairly confident of it. The moment of blackness is just a false awakening where one looses lucidity. When one comes out of the false awakening, one is not lucid, because he believes the dream-world he enters to be the real world, and believes himself to be astral projecting. He can see his own body because he believes it is actually there... this is just subconscious dream control.

[Ubik]

Originally posted by The Blue Meanie Okay, this is just my perspective. OBE's are merely lucid dreams, predominantly WILDs, accoumpanied by a false awakening. I've experienced this myself, and am fairly confident of it. The moment of blackness is just a false awakening where one looses lucidity. When one comes out of the false awakening, one is not lucid, because he believes the dream-world he enters to be the real world, and believes himself to be astral projecting. He can see his own body because he believes it is actually there... this is just subconscious dream control. I agree. I have had experiences that other people would call OBE's but I personally believe them to be LDs. I once pulled my body out of my sleeping body and looked at myself asleep on the bed. This was after a sudden 'shift' into conciousness. I then explored my room, in a most intense and vivid experience. If I didn't know about LDs I wouldn't have thought to perform an RC and would have probably just considered it an FA.

[Distant Clone]

I do not agree with anyone so far. There is actually a third piece to the puzzle, and that is astral projection (AP). AP and LDs are really similar. The main difference is you are aware of leaving your body when you AP, and you start out in your room. If the dream body gets out while you are unaware of it, and you pick up consciousness later in a dreamscape, that's an LD. OBEs are a different subtle body. Like AP, you experience rising out of your body and are aware of it. There is typically a tingling sensation that shoots through you, right before exiting your body. Then you rise up and feel disoriented. Here is where AP and OBE blow LDs out of the water. They have more control, i.e. instantaneous travel. Think about a place, and you are there. It works on a subconscious level too. At one point, I started going faster and faster away from the earth, and I thought I was out of control. I hit a higher vibrational sphere, and bounced right back into my body. Afterwards, I realized as I believed I was moving with inertia, I kept going. I have had plenty of disastrous navigation attempts while out of body. One may also manifest things this way.

[The Blue Meanie]

Originally posted by Distant Clone+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Distant Clone)</div> I do not agree with anyone so far. There is actually a third piece to the puzzle, and that is astral projection (AP). AP and LDs are really similar. The main difference is you are aware of leaving your body when you AP, and you start out in your room. If the dream body gets out while you are unaware of it, and you pick up consciousness later in a dreamscape, that's an LD.[/b] No, not at all. If you have an LD followed immediately by a FA, this creates the sensation that you are astral projecting. Like I said, I've had this myself in my only successful WILD. It's like, LD-ing and ending up lucid but in bed at home in your dream. Originally posted by Distant Clone@ OBEs are a different subtle body. Like AP, you experience rising out of your body and are aware of it. There is typically a tingling sensation that shoots through you, right before exiting your body. Then you rise up and feel disoriented. Again, I've HAD this. It's not an OBE. It's just an LD that begins as a FA. There's no mystery or anything to it. The only reason you think you're astral projecting and are not lucid, is because you BELIEVE you're astral projecting. What you describe is nothing special, and is just an LD that begins as a FA, NOT an OBE. <!--QuoteBegin-Distant Clone Here is where AP and OBE blow LDs out of the water. They have more control, i.e. instantaneous travel. Think about a place, and you are there. It works on a subconscious level too. At one point, I started going faster and faster away from the earth, and I thought I was out of control. I hit a higher vibrational sphere, and bounced right back into my body. Afterwards, I realized as I believed I was moving with inertia, I kept going. I have had plenty of disastrous navigation attempts while out of body. One may also manifest things this way. Again, no. The ONLY reason you have so much control in what you call an "OBE", is because you BELIEVE you have so much control. In a "lucid", you're LESS likely to have so much control, because you acknowledge it as a dream, and your preconceived ideas of your control in lucids are likely limited. Whereas, when you trick yourself into thinking what you experience is an OBE, you believe, in OBE's, that you have more control. Hence, you have more control. In ANY dream, whether lucid, non-lucid, or a lucid where you have tricked yourself into thinking its an OBE, you have as much control as you truly believe yourself to have. No more, no less.

[wombing]

The main difference is you are aware of leaving your body when you AP, and you start out in your room. If the dream body gets out while you are unaware of it, and you pick up consciousness later in a dreamscape, that's an LD. * OBEs are a different subtle body. Like AP, you experience rising out of your body and are aware of it. There is typically a tingling sensation that shoots through you, right before exiting your body. Then you rise up and feel disoriented. [/b] this describes about twenty of my WILD experiences from the waking state (with no break in consciousness). i always WILD into my room, without fail. how do you differentiate between lucid dreaming and astral projection metaphysically? do you believe the astral realm is connected with the physical realm somehow? there are so many interpetations of OBE, or astral projection, etc. it is impossible to guess what anyone is talking about exactly. it seems to me that most people who talk about astral projection don't have any real reason to conclude they travel to some astral realm (as opposed to simply experiencing their inner dreamscape), or have various astral, etheric, etc bodies... not bashing you...i used to "believe" in astral projection...my first WILD i was sure i had astral projected....felt an intense vibration....a sensation near my stomach...and watched myself rise above me sleeping form. looking back it seems like mere expectation/interpetation. i expected all those things, and so they happened. i was even "snapped back" into my body, as i had read happens sometimes when astral projecting (the whole silver cord deal).

[imported_Berserk_Exodus]

One could even theorize that dreams are astral projections, with us only being semi-aware of them. You could also argue the inverse, that APs and OBEs are simply mistaken for something else when they are really dreams, as I thought a few years ago before I had my first concious-exit OBE. But fundamentally, does it really matter? They all revolve around an inner experience and contact with the greater collective unconcious. The experience only matters in relation to the individual... Personally, I believe that there is an immense world of energy beyond our normal perception that we will return to after our brief period in the physical realm. Or I would hope... Mr. Blue Meany, have you ever had a supposed concious-exit out of body experience? Definitively with vibrations and closed eye visuals of your immediate surroundings?

[Distant Clone]

Meanie, I do agree, one can be tricked while dreaming, but typically I can realize when I have FAs after I wake up, sometimes before. I rarely do get those as I am not a big fan of lucidity. If I do realize I am dreaming, I purposely let that fact slip away otherwise the dream usually ends. Most of the time, I project after being conscious for quite a while. I have APed only a few times, and usually it is in the middle of the afternoon. Originally posted by wombing how do you differentiate between lucid dreaming and astral projection metaphysically? do you believe the astral realm is connected with the physical realm somehow? See bullets below that describe the differences. The astral and physical realms are reflections of each other. The more attention an object gets in the physical, the more permanent a fixture it is in the astral realm.[list] [list]: shooting tingling sensation throughout the abdomen, sometimes annoying. Body rises up out of physical body to the ceiling.[*]During: Eerie feeling of being disconnected[*]After: Quite possible to have a second, or third, or more. Trips are short enough to remember.[*]Vision: I see primarily green, purple, and red. Things are not entirely solid. Spherical vision is also an option, where you get a hologram like sphere in which you can see in front and behind of you at the same time.[*]Manifestation: Done usually without realizing you want that. Travel is one example.[*]Saw the earth from outer space, it had golden rings around it, the clouds turned into a jigsaw puzzle. [list] [list]: Awareness transfers to a subtle body, and that is completely relaxed. Body rises up, only about half as far as an OBE, then it tilts and rotates so one is in the standing position.[*]During: Complete awareness of subtle body. Sometimes "point" shaped, other times, the full thing. Perception is more intense than lucid dreams.[*]After: The astral body will literally stop responding to your thoughts two or three seconds before it pulls itself back in.[*]Vision: More like a dream, however the horizon and all colors are brighter. I would say cartoonish.[*]Manifestation: Similar to OBEs.[*]When looking directly at the astral hand, it will melt. In the street, I saw ape-like bipeds walking. Also got mooned by a white Bart Simpson. [*]Like dreams, lessons are also possible. They are straightforward and not as symbolic as dreams.[*]Once APed while the radio was on. I was about to turn it off, but it just faded out and when the AP finished, the same song was still playing.[list] [list]: Heavy vibrations, that shake the body, then they go to the genitals. On occasion, the dream scene will literally eat through and overtake one's field of vision[*]During: No awareness or feelings of dream body, unless stimulated i.e. holding something or being shot[*]After: WILDs can end quickly, and without warning. Sometimes able to slip in and out of the dream several times.[*]Vision: Similar to waking life. Sometimes, the ambience is brighter than others. Usually less than APs.[*]Manifestation: Anything is possible, requires control and permission from dream mind. Also tends to take longer than OBEs or APs.[*]Had a dream where I had an OBE, as a result I had two overlaying field of visions.[*]"Thinking" about the hand, or determing where it will be without looking at it can turn dreams into APs. Also meditation has caused me to rise up out of my dream body.[*]Falling asleep with the radio on usually means hearing the radio song during the dream.[list]

[Ubik]

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[Ubik]

[quote] [list] [list]: shooting tingling sensation throughout the abdomen, sometimes annoying. Body rises up out of physical body to the ceiling.[*]During: Eerie feeling of being disconnected[*]After: Quite possible to have a second, or third, or more. Trips are short enough to remember.[*]Vision: I see primarily green, purple, and red. Things are not entirely solid. Spherical vision is also an option, where you get a hologram like sphere in which you can see in front and behind of you at the same time.[*]Manifestation: Done usually without realizing you want that. Travel is one example.[*]Saw the earth from outer space, it had golden rings around it, the clouds turned into a jigsaw puzzle. [list] [list]: Awareness transfers to a subtle body, and that is completely relaxed. Body rises up, only about half as far as an OBE, then it tilts and rotates so one is in the standing position.[*]During: Complete awareness of subtle body. Sometimes "point" shaped, other times, the full thing. Perception is more intense than lucid dreams.[*]After: The astral body will literally stop responding to your thoughts two or three seconds before it pulls itself back in.[*]Vision: More like a dream, however the horizon and all colors are brighter. I would say cartoonish.[*]Manifestation: Similar to OBEs.[*]When looking directly at the astral hand, it will melt. In the street, I saw ape-like bipeds walking. Also got mooned by a white Bart Simpson. [*]Like dreams, lessons are also possible. They are straightforward and not as symbolic as dreams.[*]Once APed while the radio was on. I was about to turn it off, but it just faded out and when the AP finished, the same song was still playing.[list] I've experienced pretty much all these during WILD and SP. I just think it depends on your personal beliefs. No-one is right or wrong. If two people experience the EXACT same thing, one could call it WILD while the other calls it an OBE.