Thread: A new level of Awareness

I guess both congrats and condolences are in order. I am sorry about the loss of your friend and the feelings that this LD evoked. I am also thrilled that you had such a high level lucid event. These seem to be few and far between, but when they do occur, thy can fundamentally change the way you view the world.

I have only had a handful of these in my life, but after having them, I am convinced that all you are is conciousness, or some might say spirit. Your conciousness can either be present in the waking reality or in the lucid reality. There is really not a lot of difference, it is all conciousness.

As to you method of achieving you lucid state, please be careful. It can be damaging and you are not getting any younger, you know"

Seeker

Thanks for your input.
How can something with such clarity seem such a mystery as far as perception.
I suppose I can extract something positive from this as likely as something negative. Maybe the role of my neighbor had set the mood.

"It is all consciousness!" You are so right. And how it still remain so, um, unfathomableness! Is that a word?

The subconscious and it's altered perception of reality. I think this is where I may feel stripped.

Ah, but why feel disappointed simply because the "feeling" of full lucidity is the same as reality? Think of the possibilities lucidity brings and you'll see the difference between lucid dreaming and reality. I think they are pretty obvious so there's really no point in sulking over the feeling when you can analyse the logical aspect of the difference between wakefulness and lucid dreaming. :yumdumdoodledum:

Originally posted by Merlock
Ah, but why feel disappointed simply because the \"feeling\" of full lucidity is the same as reality? Think of the possibilities lucidity brings and you'll see the difference between lucid dreaming and reality. I think they are pretty obvious so there's really no point in sulking over the feeling when you can analyse the logical aspect of the difference between wakefulness and lucid dreaming. :yumdumdoodledum:

Simply put. If they are the same, then lucidity brings about no change.
I am glad you have brought this up. And I am glad I can engage in this aspect.

Upon that level of lucidity Merlock, the dream scene is not magical, it does not invoke images of flying overhead, as many of my lucids have. It is shear reality..
It is if you have no access to the world of the boundless.
This has been an ongoing process for me too. As if it has come full circle I have seen my lucid dreams become more clear and realistic over the past two years. So I am again bound by the laws of reality, lucidness.
I almost feel as if it should be called something else.. Lucid dreaming. In effect that is exactly what it is. lucid.
Lucid = apprehensible, clear, clear-cut, comprehendible, comprehensible, crystal clear, distinct, evident, explicit, fathomable, graspable, intelligible, knowable, limpid, luminous, pellucid, plain, translucent, transparent, transpicuous, unambiguous, unblurred, understandable.
That word has nothing to do with an ever changing scene and reality. Or an absence of time and space. It is AWAKE!
So yes, I do sulk. For a whole new realm of reality that was once my playground to bolster my creativity and to spark my imagination seems to be leaving.

Maybe I am missing the point. Maybe that is the point! To reach a level of shear clarity?

The level of pure clarity is reached only when there is no dreaming because there is no longer a need to dream.

Originally posted by Howetzer

Maybe I am missing the point.

Yes, you are! You're complaining that your dreams are vivid? What's with that? That is not a bad thing by any measure! The realism doesn't have to go hand in hand with the clarity. Your dream is what you make it; if you want it to be creative, make it so. It's the difference between drawing with a dull pencil and drawing with a sharp one.

Originally posted by Aneas
The level of pure clarity is reached only when there is no dreaming because there is no longer a need to dream.

Could you elaborate on this Aneas!

BTW, It is nice to see you around!!

Originally posted by Howetzer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howetzer)</div>

I have had a great but sobering experience. Actually I am not sure if I am happy or sad.?.
Always the quest for achieving greater lucidity. A balance of shifting conscious and subconscious activity. It never seems balanced.

I believe a compilation of things allowed for this. Provided that I was deprived of sleep and then was able to regain sleep. An amount of sleep that I would not normally achieve.
This allowed me to have a string of lucid events that led me to total lucidity.

From being sick and lacking sleep I slept an entire 12 hours straight. As I woke up I was clearly rested. But I felt as though I could regain sleep. A perfect time set up for some lucid activity. And sure enough I had. Somewhere in the realm of about seven lucid dreams all accruing back to back.
Each dream I would more easily find an aspect of the scene that provoked my lucidness..
Upon my last lucid dream, the events were as follows.

I was in my neighbors garage. This was identical to the dream before. This time I did not even need a clue to spark my conscious mind. I awoke in a dream and was aware of it out
of the gates. But this was not a WILD.

The surprising fact was that as I stood in the garage. I was fully conscious of my surroundings. I new that I was in a dream Only due to the fact that my neighbor, Jack was in sight from the garage in his living room. ~Jack is no longer with us. In a recent plane crash him and three others had died.
The dream scene was entirely stable.
I spoke aloud, I am dreaming. I know this but let me feel some difference between how I feel right now and how I feel when I am awake. I concentrated on my thought, emotions & feelings. Stability, clarity and lucidity were 100% achieved. I stood in sadness.
There is no difference between full lucidity and waking life to your fully engaged mind.

Thoughts



[EDIT] As I am struggling on how I feel, right now I guess the best word to describe my emotions is stripped. absence of something. I don't know?[/b]

Congrats! You fully awakened in a LD. That was cool, & you should put that in your DJ!!

<!--QuoteBegin-Seeker
I have only had a handful of these in my life, but after having them, I am convinced that all you are is conciousness, or some might say spirit. Your conciousness can either be present in the waking reality or in the lucid reality. There is really not a lot of difference, it is all conciousness.

??? I wouldn't quite say that if I am typing here right now.
And I don't think I would say that if I went w/Cody to the movies in one of those ...?.

It's all because of dream gravity. Stupid, stupid gravity. I hate gravity.

It defies quantization. No one knows what causes it, except that it has to do with mass, and we don't know much about that either. It's not really a force in our lives as much as it's a warping of it.

Boooooo! Down with gravity!

Get it? DOWN with gravity?

HAAhaha... heheh..... ehhhhhhhhhh....

--------------

Don't worry, Howetzer, there are still plenty more things to do and explore. "Complete lucidity" has been a pain in the ass for me too, although I wouldn't call it by that name. Just an abnormal stability, if that is what you are referring to. The kind that looks no different from waking life and, truly, appears to completely defeat the purpose of dreaming in the first place, especially when it doesn't offer you a precognition or anything extraordinary. Just dulling.

Find something that'll shake it up. Literally try to manifest an earthquake or something, (boy that can be something).

I know how you feel. So simple with clarity. unlike a normal dream with werid things happening but a normal waking moment. I can only say that its just your perspective to try an understand and structure it would lead to confusion!

[quote]

Simply put. If they are the same, then lucidity brings about no change.
I am glad you have brought this up. And I am glad I can engage in this aspect.

Upon that level of lucidity Merlock, the dream scene is not magical, it does not invoke images of flying overhead, as many of my lucids have. It is shear reality..
It is if you have no access to the world of the boundless.
This has been an ongoing process for me too. As if it has come full circle I have seen my lucid dreams become more clear and realistic over the past two years. So I am again bound by the laws of reality, lucidness.
I almost feel as if it should be called something else.. Lucid dreaming. In effect that is exactly what it is. lucid.
Lucid = apprehensible, clear, clear-cut, comprehendible, comprehensible, crystal clear, distinct, evident, explicit, fathomable, graspable, intelligible, knowable, limpid, luminous, pellucid, plain, translucent, transparent, transpicuous, unambiguous, unblurred, understandable.
That word has nothing to do with an ever changing scene and reality. Or an absence of time and space. It is AWAKE!
So yes, I do sulk. For a whole new realm of reality that was once my playground to bolster my creativity and to spark my imagination seems to be leaving.

Maybe I am missing the point. Maybe that is the point! To reach a level of shear clarity?

perhaps there are no 'realms' of reality, only levels of lucidity (as you can obviously well attest after your experience). after all, there can be only ONE reality, that is what makes it reality. this is what makes it easy to speak of inhabiting a different reality. the newness of your level of awareness is what made the dreamscape 'new' and your 'playground', not any external influence.
for instance, a reptile experiences the world roughly as variations of lightness and blackness. if something looks like food or a sexual object, it approaches, if it looks like a predator, it runs. its awareness/conciousness determines its 'reality'.
a human experiences the world through the five senses. these limitations determine our 'reality'. and yet both you, i, the lizard, and every other form of awareness/wakefullness/consciousness inhabit the same reality.

you are not there yet, as i am not. so i find it hard to understand what made your being completely AWAKE in a stable world a bad experience.
for the first time in your life, there was not a SINGLE external hinderance. gravity existed because you believed it to be there. stability existed because you believed it to be there. and i use the word 'existed' only from convention. in truth, you 'insisted' them into being.

you feel cut off from the 'boundless' nature of dreamscape. you speak of the limits of lucidity.

but lucidity IS the boundless...if you absorb nothing else, please meditate on that statement. can lucidity BE outside of reality? is so, it IS NOT REAL. hence the ultimate reality IS lucidity.

You listed a bunch of synonyms for lucidity.

if all of those qualities are what limited your potential for creativity, and imagination, grouped under the umbrella of lucidity, you have only yourSelf to blame. after all, what are you BUT conciousness?

I AM. i encourage you to contemplate these two words, and enter a state of mind where they are no longer dualistic and separated, but unified.

I AM is creation. it is the unchanging, fertile soil from which the entire universe becomes, including my tiny little universe, and yours, and the lizard's, and a flower stretching towards the sun, or away from loud music...

I AM is the only PURE AWAKENESS. if you claim to have been completely awake, how can imagination not be present? how can creativity not be present?
images stem from imagination. if your 'reality' is bland and restricting, investigate their source. again, ESPECIALLY when you are in a lucid dream. There is not a single fetter but your own imagination (or lack thereof), your own creativity (or lack thereof).

i suggest you try an experiment the next time you are in a similar situation. walk through your concrete, mournfully lucid 'reality' and find a sharp knife. with the fact that you are fully awake, inside a dream, absolutely clear in your mind, slit your wrists without emotion. and let the unconquerable gravity pull it towards the lifeless, uncreative ground, out of a lifeless, uncreative well. don't do anything else. simply lie there until you wake up into 'everyday' reality.

they are the same reality-your level of consciousness. i'm not being morbid when i suggest slitting your wrists, i carefully chose that specific example. consider this: If a true REALITY is, it encompasses all. all consciousness, and all products of consciousness (the world of sense, and our physical bodies). And it encompasses all beginnings, and all endings. all creations, and all destructions. all life, and all death. all Self, and all Other. All image, and the absence of space-time altogether.
Absolute Consciousness is heaven or hell. You decide. either way, it cannot be ended. as henry ford said "believe you can, believe you can't-either way you are right".

*laughs* please don't get the impression i'm chastising you, or think i'm profound or superior or anything. truth is, i've never acheived the state you speak of. my problem is still that my lucid dreams are TOO shaky and changable. everything i just said might be bullshit. however, i'm just throwing it out there in case anyone gets anything out of it, or anything out of the process of refuting it as non-sense.

non-sense is the spontanaeity of a child, the dancing shiva. non-sense is what created this world of the five -senses-.
only when you real-ize the essense of non-sense will you be truly free. only then will you be able to consciously create, in waking and in 'sleep'.

is there such a thing as an undreamable dream? if so, it is reality in all its manifestations. that undreamable dream is the only unchanging, static, understandable, knowable state. if you claim to be there, congratulations! you are reality It-Self (Self-It......I-Am). and you sitting, awake, reading this, is all that can ever be for all eternity. .

i hope you're not there yet, or i don't really exist. and i still have unlimited creation to set Imagination to work on....

As an alterative to your synonyms for 'lucidity' i propose the following-

creative, boundless, image-inative, joyful, enraptured, unlimited, immeasureable, unknowable, implicit, unable to be grasped (for it encompasses the hand that would grasp), eternal

CHANGING. reality is never the same for a moment, because consciousness is never the same for a moment. that is what MAKES it consciousness. sleep and wakefullness are just human concepts we use to navigate the perpetually flowing river of life.

peace and love my friend...

Originally posted by Mark75

Yes, you are! You're complaining that your dreams are vivid? What's with that? That is not a bad thing by any measure! The realism doesn't have to go hand in hand with the clarity. Your dream is what you make it; if you want it to be creative, make it so. It's the difference between drawing with a dull pencil and drawing with a sharp one.

Marks75,
If you can fully explain to me that you understand the level of consciousness that I experience then I would take your criticism to hold more merit.
I am not talking about just vividness.
You think in term of a dream, which i understand, however if you are[ b]fully[/b] conscious there is no access to the subconscious.

Originally posted by Asher
perhaps there are no 'realms' of reality, only levels of lucidity (as you can obviously well attest after your experience). after all, there can be only ONE reality, that is what makes it reality. this is what makes it easy to speak of inhabiting a different reality. the newness of your level of awareness is what made the dreamscape 'new' and your 'playground', not any external influence.
for instance, a reptile experiences the world roughly as variations of lightness and blackness. if something looks like food or a sexual object, it approaches, if it looks like a predator, it runs. its awareness/conciousness determines its 'reality'.
a human experiences the world through the five senses. these limitations determine our 'reality'. and yet both you, i, the lizard, and every other form of awareness/wakefullness/consciousness inhabit the same reality.

you are not there yet, as i am not. so i find it hard to understand what made your being completely AWAKE in a stable world a bad experience.
for the first time in your life, there was not a SINGLE external hinderance. gravity existed because you believed it to be there. stability existed because you believed it to be there. and i use the word 'existed' only from convention. in truth, you 'insisted' them into being.

you feel cut off from the 'boundless' nature of dreamscape. you speak of the limits of lucidity.

but lucidity IS the boundless...if you absorb nothing else, please meditate on that statement. can lucidity BE outside of reality? is so, it IS NOT REAL. hence the ultimate reality IS lucidity.

You listed a bunch of synonyms for lucidity.

if all of those qualities are what limited your potential for creativity, and imagination, grouped under the umbrella of lucidity, you have only yourSelf to blame. after all, what are you BUT conciousness?

I AM. i encourage you to contemplate these two words, and enter a state of mind where they are no longer dualistic and separated, but unified.

I AM is creation. it is the unchanging, fertile soil from which the entire universe becomes, including my tiny little universe, and yours, and the lizard's, and a flower stretching towards the sun, or away from loud music...

I AM is the only PURE AWAKENESS. if you claim to have been completely awake, how can imagination not be present? how can creativity not be present?
images stem from imagination. if your 'reality' is bland and restricting, investigate their source. again, ESPECIALLY when you are in a lucid dream. There is not a single fetter but your own imagination (or lack thereof), your own creativity (or lack thereof).

i suggest you try an experiment the next time you are in a similar situation. walk through your concrete, mournfully lucid 'reality' and find a sharp knife. with the fact that you are fully awake, inside a dream, absolutely clear in your mind, slit your wrists without emotion. and let the unconquerable gravity pull it towards the lifeless, uncreative ground, out of a lifeless, uncreative well. don't do anything else. simply lie there until you wake up into 'everyday' reality.

they are the same reality-your level of consciousness. i'm not being morbid when i suggest slitting your wrists, i carefully chose that specific example. consider this: If a true REALITY is, it encompasses all. all consciousness, and all products of consciousness (the world of sense, and our physical bodies). And it encompasses all beginnings, and all endings. all creations, and all destructions. all life, and all death. all Self, and all Other. All image, and the absence of space-time altogether.
Absolute Consciousness is heaven or hell. You decide. either way, it cannot be ended. as henry ford said \"believe you can, believe you can't-either way you are right\".

*laughs* please don't get the impression i'm chastising you, or think i'm profound or superior or anything. truth is, i've never acheived the state you speak of. my problem is still that my lucid dreams are TOO shaky and changable. everything i just said might be bullshit. however, i'm just throwing it out there in case anyone gets anything out of it, or anything out of the process of refuting it as non-sense.

non-sense is the spontanaeity of a child, the dancing shiva. non-sense is what created this world of the five -senses-.
only when you real-ize the essense of non-sense will you be truly free. only then will you be able to consciously create, in waking and in 'sleep'.

is there such a thing as an undreamable dream? if so, it is reality in all its manifestations. that undreamable dream is the only unchanging, static, understandable, knowable state. if you claim to be there, congratulations! you are reality It-Self (Self-It......I-Am). and you sitting, awake, reading this, is all that can ever be for all eternity. .

i hope you're not there yet, or i don't really exist. and i still have unlimited creation to set Imagination to work on....

As an alterative to your synonyms for 'lucidity' i propose the following-

creative, boundless, image-inative, joyful, enraptured, unlimited, immeasureable, unknowable, implicit, unable to be grasped (for it encompasses the hand that would grasp), eternal

CHANGING. reality is never the same for a moment, because consciousness is never the same for a moment. that is what MAKES it consciousness. sleep and wakefullness are just human concepts we use to navigate the perpetually flowing river of life.

peace and love my friend...

asher, Wow What a first post! Thankyou and welcome to the DreamViews Forum

I willl be back to reply! ...................

I had this very similar experience happen to me over a year ago. Since then I have cared little about lucid dreaming. I had reached the highest point possible in lucidity there. Why would I then care about my petty little lucid dreams I get while sleeping every night?

The only thing I look for now in lucid dreaming is going beyond that. I always try to use it as a catalyst for other things.

It was suprisingly similar to yours. Each of the 5 or so times, I woke up INTO the dream. I would pull myself from my body, and I would be there in the dream. Every time it was slightly different themed. I always came into the dream from where I slept.

Even in regular lucid dreams I look around and just laugh at how real everything is. I always find it to be as real as real life. I guess we all eventually just get to the point where lucid dreams become nothing more than a book that we are writing. The control is complete.

[quote]

Marks75,
If you can fully explain to me that you understand the level of consciousness that I experience then I would take your criticism to hold more merit.
I am not talking about just vividness.
You think in term of a dream, which i understand, however if you are fully conscious there is no access to the subconscious.

Alright, fair enough. Given, I haven't experienced such a level of consciousness in a dream. But you must realize, that is your subconscious producing those images. It is you subconscious rendering your world that you perceive. The fact that your mind could reproduce the real world with such accuracy is truly an amazing thing. In your initial post you said there was no difference between waking life and 100% lucidity. This is flat out untrue. I don't think I need to explain to you how awesome having one's own universe with no limits or repercussions would be, do I?

i feel your pain howetzer, i once had one of these, i was like "what now...?" because it was exactly like real life, no dream imagination, no wild ideas, nothing..... just remember that this is one in a hundred

mine also happend after a long time of sleep.... but it was like 17 hrs of sleep this makes sense because the longer we sleep the more concious we become

Originally posted by Mark75
Alright, fair enough. Given, I haven't experienced such a level of consciousness in a dream. But you must realize, that is your subconscious producing those images. It is you subconscious rendering your world that you perceive.

I understand where you are coming from.
But do you think it may be possible that at this level of consciousness your conscious is in control more so than your subconscious. Fully awake.
Does dreaming and the subconscious have to go hand in hand? Dreaming is like an involuntary act if you think about it.
So you can & will dream at some point. But try to look at dreaming in another light.
One of which you dream, but does a dream have to contain unawareness?

Once I had a dream where I was looking at a bat and there were little spotlights coming out of its eyes. I noticed that I had a quick thought like "That shouldn't be happening." In an instant, the lights went away. The moment that this happened I knew that I had made a terrible mistake and had destroyed what made this bat special. I tried to undo this, but I can't remember if I succeeded; I woke up soon afterward.

Things like this happen to me sometimes, and I have been thinking about why they occur. I am not sure, but I think it is because of an autocorrecting mechanism that brain does to prevent itself from hallucinating. I really don't know though. I also don't know if this can lead to the problems you are experiencing...

Also, I have many lucid dreams where I just cannot think of anything to do. It is like my dreamself is very familiar and bored with the territory it is in (sometimes it is like real life; sometimes it is very different), and when it chooses to wake itself up and I am awake, I wonder, "Why did I throw that opportunity away?" However, in my case, it is actually a lack of lucidity that causes this kind of thinking (or at least what I think of as a lack of lucidity). When I am in the state that I consider more lucid, I realize that the dreamworld can be quite interesting and fill myself with a sense of adventure and this manifests itself as a very interesting dream. This probably is not the problem in your case, but with me it is really just an additude problem caused by being caught off gaurd by the dream. (This is the main area that I am working on right now, in opposed to frequency or recall)

My best guess is that your goal a while ago was to find out what "lucidity" is, and you made the hypothesis that it was the same as being aware while awake. Then, since beleif leads dreams, this beleif has manifested itself by making lucid dreaming the same as being awake.

What you might need to do is to come up with a new "mythology" for your dreamworld. You need to come up with something both consistant and logical, yet very open-ended and meaningful. For examples/inspiration I recommend reading Gothlark's dreamjournal or maybe even Leo Volont's posts, or things like that. You will have to come up with a mythology that makes enough sense to you to be beleivable and meaningful. Then take the sense you get when thinking about this, and try to manefest it in your dream.

This world may be similar to the world of our waking state or it may be quite bizarre, but in either case while we are dreaming it appears to be utterly real. It is quite rare to have the slightest suspicion that what we are experiencing is just a dream. The world we inhabit in our dream seems to have its own existence completely independent of our mind, and we respond to the world in our normal way, with desire, anger, fear, and so on.

If, while we are still dreaming, we try to test whether the world we are experiencing is real or not, for example by tapping the objects around us or by questioning the other people in our dream, we shall probably get a response that seems to confirm the reality of our dream surroundings. In fact, the only certain way to know that we have been dreaming is to wake up.

Then we instantly realize without any doubt that the world we were experiencing in our dream was deceptive and was merely an appearance to our mind. It is quite clear once we are awake that what we experience in a dream does not exist from its own side but depends completely upon our mind. For example, if we dream of an elephant, the 'dream elephant' is merely an appearance to our mind and cannot be found inside our bedroom or elsewhere.

If we check carefully, we shall realize that our waking world exists in a way that is similar to the way in which our dream world exists. Like the dream world, our waking world appears vividly to us and seems to have its own existence independent of our mind. Just as in the dream, we believe this appearance to be true and respond with desire, anger, fear, and so on.

Also, if we superficially test our waking world as we did our dream world to see whether it really does exist in the way that it appears, we shall again receive an apparent confirmation of our view. If we tap the objects around us they will appear to be quite solid and real, and if we ask other people they will say that they are seeing the same objects in the same way as we do.

However, we should not take this apparent confirmation of the inherent existence of objects as conclusive, since we know that similar tests cannot reveal the actual nature of our dream world. To understand the true nature of our waking world we must investigate and meditate deeply, using the type of analysis already described. When by these means we realize emptiness we shall understand that objects such as our body do not exist from their own side. Like the dream elephant they are mere appearances to our mind. Nevertheless our world functions, following its own apparent rules in accordance with the laws of cause and effect, just as our dream world functions in its own way.

The experience of realizing emptiness can therefore be compared to waking up. Once we realize emptiness we see clearly and without any doubt that the world as we experienced it before was deceptive and false. It appeared to have its own inherent existence, but having understood emptiness we realize that it is completely empty of inherent existence and depends upon our mind. In fact, Buddha is sometimes called the 'Awakened One' because he has awakened from the 'sleep' of ignorance.

I commend you for stepping out of the unquestioning majority and addressing reality. I also agree that we cannot say for sure whether our body, and external objects are real based on just our physical senses. I also believe in the whole “I think therefore I am” philosophy, where we are aware of ourselves, and aware of our thought-processes, and can carry those thought processes out, but there is no way to be sure of anything that is experienced with the physical senses.

Haha, despite what I just said about reality, I still am a big user of my senses in determining what is real or not. A difference in the realities we perceive in (so called) real life, and the dream world is that the dream world is created from aspects of both your conscious and your subconscious mind. This is also one of my favorite things about dreams, because it allows us to interact, and learn more about ourselves( which I think we rarely do).

I have felt “totally conscious” before in a few rare lucid dreams, as if the veil of unawareness was totally lifted, but I'm not sure if I've achieved the level you described?

[quote]In fact, the only certain way to know that we have been dreaming is to wake up.

That's not true. If it were true, then it would preclude lucid dreaming.

You say you found complete lucidity and then you use it disprove the fact that you were lucid?

Think about that one for a second.

Originally posted by Ex Nine


That's not true. If it were true, then it would preclude lucid dreaming.

You say you found complete lucidity and then you use it disprove the fact that you were lucid?

Think about that one for a second.

Oh..... How I have thought about it Ex Nine.

You say that you did a reality check to prove you were awake. Then you use it to disprove the fact that you were not in a dream.

[quote].... Then you use it to disprove the fact that you were not in a dream.

I don't follow... where did I do this?

Originally posted by Ex Nine


I don't follow... where did I do this?

First off you did not quote the entire sentence. But in general reference, not necisarilly you. But... Is that not what we do?

>You say that you did a reality check to prove you were awake. Then you use it to disprove the fact that you were not in a dream.

>You say you found complete lucidity and then you use it disprove the fact that you were lucid?

Can you tell me a difference here? Other than you are on one side or another , with the same result.