Use of LD in Hermetic Magic

[sasha]

Does anyone here use LD in the context of Hermeticism or other magical traditions? If so, I'd love to hear what you have to say about the limitations and possibilities of its use. Also, any advice you have for developing LD specific to this sort of work. I hope to develop my LD ability in order to reliably do magical/mystical work while in a non-ordinary state of consciousness and to do so in a more controlled and directed manner than with drugs and more powerfully than with meditation-induced trances. Some folk in the chaos magic tradition have done this. In fact, I first heard of lucid dreaming in this context. But, unlike most chaos magicians who I've heard report on this sort of thing, I plan to focus on pathworking, skrying, and evocation during lucid dreams. I rarely feel much sense of authenticity with this sort of work when I do it ordinary or near-ordinary consciousness.

[mongreloctopus]

i can't lucid dream consistently enough to test this yet, but i suspect that while in a lucid dream it is the easiest possible time to alter your state of consciousness--i have read about people meditating in lucid dreams, and i bet it wouldn't be difficult to induce something else, provided you know what your goal is...i've been reading a bit about chaos magick and it furthers the concept i have been noticing in my readings about shamanism and eastern mysticism that "intent" is the key. incidentally, intent is also the key to lucid dreaming. seems like everything is powered by intent.

[Suspiro]

Originally posted by mongreloctopus i can't lucid dream consistently enough to test this yet, but i suspect that while in a lucid dream it is the easiest possible time to alter your state of consciousness--i have read about people meditating in lucid dreams, and i bet it wouldn't be difficult to induce something else, provided you know what your goal is...i've been reading a bit about chaos magick and it furthers the concept i have been noticing in my readings about shamanism and eastern mysticism that "intent" is the key. *incidentally, intent is also the key to lucid dreaming. *seems like everything is powered by intent. I tried meditating in a lucid dream once but my vision just started to fade and i stopped. What exactly are the uses for it?

[sasha]

Originally posted by Suspiro What exactly are the uses for it? Do you mean my purpose for doing shamanic/magical/etc. work during lucid dreams? The simplist answer: inducing visions or gnostic states.

[sasha]

Originally posted by mongreloctopus i have read about people meditating in lucid dreams, and i bet it wouldn't be difficult to induce something else, provided you know what your goal is...i've been reading a bit about chaos magick and it furthers the concept i have been noticing in my readings about shamanism and eastern mysticism that "intent" is the key. incidentally, intent is also the key to lucid dreaming. seems like everything is powered by intent. I've heard some folk here talk about problems with control during dreams. I figured I'd need to to establish nearly total control over the initial setting and maintain it throughout any ritual work done in the dream and without unwanted things just popping up. I wondered if I made a bad assumption about the necessity of that or if it serves as too great a limitation. Unfortunately, I can't even get myself to LD yet, so I don't have this problem. But I have considered some possibilities for developing control for this particular purpose. 1) Do the ritual work repeatedly while awake so that I don't need to think about it as much while dreaming. 2) If I'll need to construct a particular setting (temple or whatever), then spend lots of time building it up in my imagination while awake until I develop enough familiarity with all of the details to enable me to nearly instantly build up the image in my mind. On the other hand, maybe intent, along with all of the practice I mention above, would serve to produce more spontaneous results in dreams (perhaps not even lucid dreams), providing everything I wanted even without the formal ritual work.

[wombing]

i am unfamiliar with hermetic magic, but complete proficiency with specific rituals should definitely be automatic (or at least very close) before attempting them in lucids. this would enable you to initatiate the ritual, perform it automatically, and still have one-pointed awareness to focus upon/within the effects... your suggestion about habitually spending time (mentally, physically, or both) in a particular physical structure seems promising as well if your work involves the dimensions of a room, or its stable, unchanging shape. you gave inducing visions or gnostic states[/b] as your primary motivation for ritual work within lucids. it has always been my opinion that rituals possess very little effects within the acts themselves, but simply serve to bring one into an appropriate state of mind, useful for attaining a particular purpose. your first aim of inducing visions seems strange. dreams of all types are 'visions' through and through. it would seem no ritual is required. once lucid you would only need to 'open' yourself to a particular type of vision...once you have some lucids you will likely have a deeper understanding of what i mean by this. as for the secon aim of 'gnostic states', i will assume you mean it in the same sense in which i use it. roughly, "wordless, inner knowing". as for this, i can testify that the gnostic state(s) can be accessed in the lucid dream state more readily than in waking awareness...two of my forty-odd dreams have included 'gnosis' which rivaled similar states of mind brought about through trance, entheogens, and meditation.

[sasha]

Thanks for your comments wombing. Originally posted by wombing+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wombing)</div> it has always been my opinion that rituals possess very little effects within the acts themselves, but simply serve to bring one into an appropriate state of mind, useful for attaining a particular purpose.[/b] Without getting into a debate about the purpose and usefulness of ritual, I think it very much depends on the sorts of results you want and the system within which you work. <!--QuoteBegin-wombing your first aim of inducing visions seems strange. dreams of all types are 'visions' through and through. it would seem no ritual is required. once lucid you would only need to 'open' yourself to a particular type of vision...once you have some lucids you will likely have a deeper understanding of what i mean by this. I didn't really want to get into a detailed discussion of the Hermetic tradition or my particular take on it, so I gave a way oversimplified answer. As a result, I used "visions" in a way too broad of a way. So, I agree that all dreams can fit under that category. I'll just leave it by saying that I have some very specific goals in mind. Originally posted by wombing as for this, i can testify that the gnostic state(s) can be accessed in the lucid dream state more readily than in waking awareness...two of my forty-odd dreams have included 'gnosis' which rivaled similar states of mind brought about through trance, entheogens, and meditation. That heartens me greatly.

[wombing]

Without getting into a debate about the purpose and usefulness of ritual, I think it very much depends on the sorts of results you want and the system within which you work[/b] yeah. i suppose upon reconsideration even i make use of 'rituals' which i attach concrete results to...chanting the mantra "OM" being the main one (which incidentally was the prominent feature in one of my 'gnostic' dreams...i intoned it as i floated in a lucid dream, losing all ego-awareness.") I didn't really want to get into a detailed discussion of the Hermetic tradition or my particular take on it, so I gave a way oversimplified answer. As a result, I used "visions" in a way too broad of a way. So, I agree that all dreams can fit under that category. I'll just leave it by saying that I have some very specific goals in mind. [/b] oversimplification is neccessary, and also results far to often in misunderstanding. i guess i was prompting you to elaborate on which "visions" you desire (albeit in a roundabout way). if you don't wish to to discuss it on this thread, i'd be very interested to get a PM describing the types of visions you would induce. or even a brief overview with your thoughts on hermeticism. all i know is that is is somehow connected with egypt, incorporates or spawned the phrase "as above, so below", and that crowley was a member of a hermetic order for some time. *shrugs* if you enjoy discussing it that is...

[sasha]

The Hermetic tradition has mythical origins in Egypt. I see it as basically a mystical tradition of Europe, sort of like yoga for India. It actually combines multiple traditions, including ritual practices from ancient Egypt (supposedly) and Greece, early Islamic and then European alchemy, Christian Gnosticism, and Jewish Qabalah. Yes, Crowley belonged to the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, a hugely important Hermetic group of the late 19th century. He later co-founded the AA, another Hermetic group. The modern synthesis of Hermeticism probably begins in the 17th century with the development of the Masonic and Rosicrucian traditions, or maybe about 100 hundred years before that with famous scientist/magicians like Cornelius Agrippa and John Dee. But the European alchemical and magical traditions that form an important part of it go back probably another 1000 years before that. Some of the visions I'd like to induce come from the Qabalistic part of the Hermetic tradition. Early Qabalists drew heavily from Neo-Platonic philosophy. They saw the creation of the cosmos as occurring through 10 progressive emanations, starting from pure divine and ending with material world. Each of these 10 emanations has a variety of attributes that one can use in a variety of mystical practices. At least for the last 120 or so years, these attributions have included a set of visions, one for each emanation. For example, number 1: Union with God, 2: Vision of God Face-to-Face, 3: Vision of Sorrow, 9: Vision of the Mechanics of the Universe, and 10: the Vision of the Holy Guardian Angel. You work backwards from 10 to 1. These need not necessarily come as visions in the usual sense, but they certainly need to involve gnosis. I don't believe in any fundamental truth to anything in Qabalah, but it provides a great progressive framework. I recommend The Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune for a good intro to Hermetic Qabalah. Crowley, drawing on older work, but refining it greatly, provides 2 additional "visions" to place within the Qabalistic framework: The Knowledge and Conversation (Medieval euphamisms for sex) of the Holy Guardian Angel - associated with emanation number 6; Crossing the Abyss - between 4 and 3. Along with these (a lifetime or more of work), I have an interest in communicating with various criters dealt with in the Hermetic tradition. These include elementals, angels, demons, etc. that one might evoke or invoke. I have managed some communication, but I hope to obtain greater "authenticity" (me not just consciously making it all up) by doing this in LDs. I don't particularly care if these critters really exist (doubt it greatly), I create them as sort of subroutines of my unconsious, or whatever. But they can help to build up to or provide building blocks for the visions I mention above.

[Ardent Lost]

Very interesting idea! I've never actually though about it before, but it makes a lot of sense that magick practises would work well in LDing, provided you know what you're doing, as you have highlighted. I'd be very interested in hearing any results you come up with.

[archae93]

sasha, I just wanted to say I am exploring lucid dreaming with pretty much the same framework, intent and goals as you. I've not yet been successful in having lucid dreams regularly enough, and with enough control to comment on whether lucid dreaming is a valid bridge into the several mystical/magickal experiences you listed. The Hermetic literature I've read seems to suggest experiences very much like lucid dreaming are a valid springboard to visions. It's an apple vs. oranges situation though, because our medical understanding of the brain, consciousness and dreaming makes us describe our experiences in a very different context than the descriptions of visions given in the Hermetic literature going back hundreds of years ago. But they may be the same experience. To lucid dreamers looking at it from the perspective of modern physiology, questions about "visions" may be meaningless, because we don't believe in visions in this day and age. Instead we believe the brain can generate many kinds of sensations and scenes in dreams; which have no intrinsic meaning in themselves, but are just the result of our "neuro-projector" flashing content onto the movie screen of our minds. This goes into the debate of whether lucid dreaming is qualitatively different from astral projection, and in what kinds of experiences they differ on. As for your list of visions you are pursuing, you very much seem intent on working your way up the tree; your list of goals almost mirrors this list: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib13.html Have you considered doing your list within a structured curriculum or system that progresses step-by-step? I know there is still a secret order around that works that system, but seeing as everything's been published, it's also easy enought to do-it-yourself.

[sasha]

Originally posted by Ardent Lost+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ardent Lost)</div> I'd be very interested in hearing any results you come up with.[/b] I certainly will, but don't hold your breath... unless you're doing a reality check. Like Archae93, I'm not yet at the point of doing this. I have much more work to do with just cultivating my lucid dreaming. Do you also study or practice magic or related practices? Originally posted by archae93+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(archae93)</div> sasha[/b] 93 Archae. It looks like we have much in common. If you wish, please PM me and tell me what sorts of non-dreaming work you do, particular approaches, etc. <!--QuoteBegin-archae93@ I just wanted to say I am exploring lucid dreaming with pretty much the same framework, intent and goals as you. Fantastic. I can't wait to share notes. <!--QuoteBegin-archae93 To lucid dreamers looking at it from the perspective of modern physiology, questions about "visions" may be meaningless, because we don't believe in visions in this day and age. ... *This goes into the debate of whether lucid dreaming is qualitatively different from astral projection, and in what kinds of experiences they differ on. I personally don't worry much about how or why it works. I just focus on results. But folk here seem to come from a wide variety of perspectives. I've definitely seen some folk even trash talking others who see meaning in their dreams, but others seem to focus on it substantially. Originally posted by archae93 As for your list of visions you are pursuing, you very much seem intent on working your way up the tree; your list of goals almost mirrors this list: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib13.html Have you considered doing your list within a structured curriculum or system that progresses step-by-step? I know there is still a secret order around that works that system, but seeing as everything's been published, it's also easy enought to do-it-yourself. Yes, I defintely work from the classic framework of the Hermetic Qabalah, though I didn't list every one of the visions associated with the sephiroth. I just picked a few for examples. Crowley published the whole list in 777 and Fortune did so as well in Mystical Qabalah. I do work this system within a structured manner. Many orders, including the AA (mentioned in the article you linked to), work with the Hermetic system today, and even in a not-so-secret manner. In fact, these orders probably have larger memberships and stronger organizations today than they ever have before. I look forward to talking about all of this more around here over the next few months.

[sasha]

I didn't yet have any success, but sort of a funny story... In this dream, I go to party hosted by a magical order. The host and I have the job of doing a banishing ritual to start things off. I start drawing pentagrams, but the first two turn out puke orange and way too small. But then I start to feel light-headed and fall to the floor, where I turn into a frog. How cliche! But more seriously, I did critique my pentagrams that same way I do when I create them when awake, which suggests, I think that I'm moving towards lucidity. And, actually, I had a false awakening later in the dream. But, really, I just found the frog thing funny.

[Ria777]

Originally posted by mongreloctopus "intent" is the key. *incidentally, intent is also the key to lucid dreaming. *seems like everything is powered by intent. "intent is the key" to quote Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth. I think that frequent LD's have to do with doing the exercises and practice more than intent. so, intent leads to doing the exercises leads to the LD's. at least once I have made chaos magic-style sigils in LD's. in one dream just imagined one, cursive shapes made of light in the air, and made it disperse. the environment that this dream took place had that neo-psychedelic look to it of complex shapes, bright colors, sort of, pink skies and green frosting-colored trees. that sort of place. very like the art of Luke Brown or maybe Carey Thompson or Roger Dean, though the colors looked like "my " colors not theirs. and neo-psychedelic art did not, as yet, really exist as a style. what I made the sigil to do I don't remember, I think that I simply made one instinctively and my aesthetic appreciation at having made the sigil may have provided the gnosis. or something like that. maybe I just meditated while levitating in lotus position.

[sasha]

It's nice to hear a success story. Originally posted by Ria777 my aesthetic appreciation at having made the sigil may have provided the gnosis. or something like that. maybe I just meditated while levitating in lotus position. I kinda figured the dreaing itself would provide the "gnosis" to fire a sigil. What do you think?

[Ria777]

it may have! I only remember that I enjoyed doing it.

[think green]

Wow, Sasha, the only critters I ever wanted to communicate with are plants and animals!!! But, well-read as you seem, maybe I can help you with lucidity. Would it be an insult to recommend Castanada? "Tales of Power" and "The Eagle's Gift." Lucid dreaming is a big topic in both. I found the exercises he outlined extremely helpful; worthwhile tools and had success. You've read LaBarge (sp), I'm assuming, cause things can get pretty sticky in the beginning when you constantly think you have awakened from a lucid dream and are, in fact, just dreaming you are awake. Not fun, when you dream the house is on fire and "wake up" sixteen times because the house is on fire and it's all just dreams within dreams within dreams. The only dreams I would ever describe as nightmares in my life were those early lucid dreams of false waking. Good luck

[sasha]

Originally posted by think green Would it be an insult to recommend Castanada? "Tales of Power" and "The Eagle's Gift." Lucid dreaming is a big topic in both. I found the exercises he outlined extremely helpful; worthwhile tools and had success. You've read LaBarge (sp), I'm assuming Thanks for the recommendations. I have read some Castenada in the past, but I don't recall those titles and I didn't realize he talked about lucid dreaming. I have also not yet read LaBerge. I have pretty much just read the tutorials and posts here. Originally posted by think green Good luck Thanks.

[Nikolaa]

cloud u ask questions about what u want to know again,i cloudent read all that,i think i can really help you

[sasha]

Originally posted by Nikolaa+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nikolaa)</div> cloud u ask questions about what u want to know again,i cloudent read all that,i think i can really help you[/b] <!--QuoteBegin-sasha Does anyone here use LD in the context of Hermeticism or other magical traditions? If so, I'd love to hear what you have to say about the limitations and possibilities of its use. Also, any advice you have for developing LD specific to this sort of work. I hope to develop my LD ability in order to reliably do magical/mystical work while in a non-ordinary state of consciousness and to do so in a more controlled and directed manner than with drugs and more powerfully than with meditation-induced trances. Some folk in the chaos magic tradition have done this. In fact, I first heard of lucid dreaming in this context. But, unlike most chaos magicians who I've heard report on this sort of thing, I plan to focus on pathworking, skrying, and evocation during lucid dreams. I rarely feel much sense of authenticity with this sort of work when I do it ordinary or near-ordinary consciousness.

[Nikolaa]

Does anyone here use LD in the context of Hermeticism or other magical traditions? If so, I'd love to hear what you have to say about the limitations and possibilities of its use. Also, any advice you have for developing LD specific to this sort of work. [/b] When ur haveing an OBE,u can controle ur energy much better(mabey u evin didn't notice it thil then)and u can use it for healing,opening energy rots in places,and getting rid of "bag energy". U can take over someones body,but i don't know the ditails. U can enter someones dream in ur own vision,like in the bible,when Mery sees a angel in her sleep. There are cpuntles abileties which can be aqierd whit OBE,like telekenisis and thelepcity(talking whit someone whit ur mind)which i know

[sasha]

I had my first sort-of success with this last night, as well as only my second LD since joining here. Upon going lucid, I immediately decided to do a simple ritual. But I had tons of problems with it. First of all, despite having done this ritual over a thousand times while awake, I screwed up and forgot to do the first part of it. Then I had trouble standing still and upright, even though I didn't have any problem walking to the place. Then I tried seeing light come out of my hand to draw the necessary figures in the air, but nothing came out. Oh, well. Not bad for a first attempt I suppose. Regardless, this indicates for me that we can actually do this, that we can have the necessary focus for it. Now I need to develop more control.

[wombing]

congrats sasha...i trust that gave you an infusion of confidence. look forward to seeing further progress...

[Wyzard]

Originally posted by think green Wow, Sasha, the only critters I ever wanted to communicate with are plants and animals!!! *But, well-read as you seem, *maybe I can help you with lucidity. *Would it be an insult to recommend Castanada? *"Tales of Power" and "The Eagle's Gift." *Lucid dreaming is a big topic in both. *I found the exercises he outlined extremely helpful; worthwhile tools and had success. *You've read LaBarge (sp), I'm assuming, cause things can get pretty sticky in the beginning when you constantly think you have awakened from a lucid dream and are, in fact, just dreaming you are awake. *Not fun, when you dream the house is on fire and "wake up" sixteen times because the house is on fire and it's all just dreams within dreams within dreams. *The only dreams I would ever describe as nightmares in my life were those early lucid dreams of false waking. Good luck Well if he's gonna read Castaneda, lets not miss mentioning "The Art of Dreaming".. That one is all (well almost) about LD...his best imo..

[Wyzard]

Originally posted by sasha Does anyone here use LD in the context of Hermeticism or other magical traditions? *If so, I'd love to hear what you have to say about the limitations and possibilities of its use. *Also, any advice you have for developing LD specific to this sort of work. Yes & alot lately..did various journeys (I still do sometimes) before, but LD is as good as any of them.. Use the techniques they mention here..Like MILD..WILD..or whatever you prefer..they are good..as for limitations&possiblilities check out the book I mentioned previous post in this thread..good examples in that one..but obviosly there are many more things you can do