Which body is the real me?

[little nemo]

When we think about our dream body we imagine it as an invention of the sleeping mind. When we think of our ‘real’ self we refer to our physical body - very different from our dream body. But is it? The experience of our physical body is of a composite nature, made up of sensory input; touch, sight, sound, etc., overlaid with physical and emotional memories accumulated over a lifetime. This body image/map exists complete within the mind and is what we refer to when we say ‘this is me’. This definition of how we experience being in a physical body exactly matches the definition of how we experience the dream body. Consider the fact that when you dream, you take your dream body for the one you have known all your waking life, totally and without question. [There are exceptions to this, just as there are exceptions to how you experience your physical body when you get sick, or take certain drugs, or alter your body conciousness through meditation. But essentially, the way you relate to your dream body while dreaming is indistinguishable from the way you relate to your physical body while awake.] This begs the question – is your physically experienced body the real you, and your dream body an ersatz copy, or are they one and the same? If they are the same, what are the ramifications? This could mean that you experience your ‘real’ life through the dream body; that the dream body rides within the physical body conforming to it cell for cell while you are awake, and is freed from it in the dream state. Put another way; whether dreaming or awake, what we experience as our body is a mental construct, seemingly one and the same thing in each instance. There's something very appealing about the one (self identified) body-two states model. It invests dreaming with more 'reality' while making reality more dream-like. I would like to hear someone else's take on this if you can make any sense of it.

[Interested1]

Hmmmm...I'm feeling very social tonight...so I am going to post. But first, it requires a little self detail. My oldest daughter (who is 4) was born with a rare chromosome defect called 8P syndrome. She has lots of issues...but will be able to lead a fully productive, "normal", life. She was born with congenital heart defects...and I will admit I stress ate. But once she had her heart surgery...my stress level went way down. However, I still couldn't seem to lost any weight. Just when I started to lose weight, my hubsand and I decided it was time to expand our family...our youngest is 16 months old and I am still 15 lbs from what I was when I got pregnant with our first. With that said... I find that when I am happy with myself, in general, I dream of myself as I normally look...without any effort. I am 5'3" and happy at 125. If I wanted to work really hard I could weigh less and look like better, but looks are not the most important thing to me. I just want to be how God made me to be naturally So I started seeing a naturopathic docotor; he did some blood work and found that my liver wasn't functioning correctly (childbearing related). I started taking his perscribed supplements, fasting and cleanses to heal my liver and to date have lost 35 lbs...just by focusing on getting my body to work properly. If I get too caught up in how I "should" or "could" look...I tend to dream of myself as the following: overweight, frumpy, disheveled...anything that falls along those lines. But when I am spending time enriching my spiritul life and really working hard to be the person that Christ would have me be and just focusing on being healthy and the best me I can be...I dream of myself as I would normally be. (that was confusing to type let alone read!) I think our dream bodies have a direct correlation to what we percieve ourselves to be. Weather focused on outward or inward appearance...that is the reflection we will see in our dreams. A worldly view of ourselves really has a profound effect on our spiritual selves. This is only my opinion and what I have found to be true of myself, and of course...I do not know everything...

[saxonharp]

There is no such thing as a "dream body". There is only the experience of "you" in a dream. Just as your "physical body" is an experience of you in the Tonal. What we perceive as "real" is simply the manifestation of intent. Whose intent is the question that Mankind has been trying to answer since we had the concept of self. In the Dreamtime, we view ourselves as we experience ourselves.

[little nemo]

There is no such thing as a "dream body". A surprising comment from someone who gives credence to nagualism.

[Interested1]

What we perceive as "real" is simply the manifestation of intent. Whose intent is the question that Mankind has been trying to answer since we had the concept of self. In the Dreamtime, we view ourselves as we experience ourselves. It would have been a lot better to state it was a matter of perception than go in to needless detail. I should never converse, in any form, when I'm tired...sorry to everyone who had to read that!

[saxonharp]

A surprising comment from someone who gives credence to nagualism. Really? I don't think so. Is there a Dreamtime? Yes. Is the Dreamtime as real as what we call the waking world? Yes. But what are we really talking about when we are talking about "bodies"? In the Nagual, all things are Spirit. What we see and experience are only put as images into our "minds" so that we can use our minds to collect and analyze the information we receive. When Don Juan was teaching Castaneda about Knowledge, Castaneda viewed Knowledge as a giant Moth. Don Juan saw it as well, but his perception was different. I stand by what I said: "In the Dreamtime, we experience ourselves as we see ourselves." I am curious, though, why you think that would be a surprising thing for someone who follows the Toltec tradition?

[little nemo]

I think we are having a slightly out-of-sync exchange here. Read the first post and the replies in this thread again and you might see what I mean. btw, I like your sig quote, what is the source?

[saxonharp]

I think we are having a slightly out-of-sync exchange here. Read the first post and the replies in this thread again and you might see what I mean. btw, I like your sig quote, what is the source? Perhaps. We may be saying similar things, but as you said, just slightly out of sync. My last post though was just an inquiry into why you thought it odd that someone who followed the Toltec Path would consider it odd to say there's no such thing as a dream "Body". I consider myself somewhat astute to the Path of the Warrior - not always as successful in execution as understanding, but working on it - and have been studying it since college in 1987. For myself, there's no disconnect between my statment and my understanding of the Path, so I was curious what your understanding was or what prompted the comment. It may be something I've been missing all these years. Oh.. the sig quote came from a bumper sticker I saw once.

[little nemo]

Because of all the references to the dream (or dreaming) body in Castaneda's books. Furthermore, it would seem that awareness needs a vehicle if it is going to interact with phenomenological worlds or levels of existence, no matter how insubstantial. It may be that that vehicle is a projection of awareness itself, but this leads me back to my initial speculation; are we experiencing waking reality through the dream body or vehicle? Are we dreaming at all times?

[saxonharp]

Because of all the references to the dream (or dreaming) body in Castaneda's books. Furthermore, it would seem that awareness needs a vehicle if it is going to interact with phenomenological worlds or levels of existence, no matter how insubstantial. It may be that that vehicle is a projection of awareness itself, but this leads me back to my initial speculation; are we experiencing waking reality through the dream body or vehicle? Are we dreaming at all times? Yeah, I think this may be where we're disconnecting slightly. Overall, I do think we are saying similar things. I interpret our physical existance to be a manifestion of spiritual intent - something that we can recognize and use to allow us to experience things in a way that we can't in the Nagual. I consider our "dream selves" to be the same thing but in a different way. Our dream selves are also manifestations of spiritual intent - but rather than this manifestation being Tonal, it's a manifestation nearer the Nagual - something between our Tonal "selves" and our purely Spiritual selves.

[juroara]

arent you who you are without your body? are 'you' less of 'you' should something happen to your arm and it is amputated? is the 'you' less if you are blind? we are consciousness in my opinion. the body is a vehicle to express ourselves. but it isn't who we are. I am not an arm. I am not a leg. I am. in dreams when we are freed from the limitations of our physical body, we can express ourselves in new ways

[little nemo]

Yeah, I think this may be where we're disconnecting slightly. Overall, I do think we are saying similar things. I interpret our physical existance to be a manifestion of spiritual intent - something that we can recognize and use to allow us to experience things in a way that we can't in the Nagual. I consider our "dream selves" to be the same thing but in a different way. Our dream selves are also manifestations of spiritual intent - but rather than this manifestation being Tonal, it's a manifestation nearer the Nagual - something between our Tonal "selves" and our purely Spiritual selves. So you would not conclude that we are dreaming all the time since you hold we are one thing awake, and another asleep? Certainly much carries over from one to the other if they are indeed two distinct things. (Something I not sure I agree with.) What interest me is the nature of the differences between waking and sleeping awareness. How, for instance, can we so completely forget that we lay down to sleep in a bed in a room somewhere when we dream? Why are lucid dreams the exception when it seems much more likely that they sould be the rule? What is preventing us from recognizing the dreaming state while it's happening? We can look from waking into dreaming but not the other way around. We are still ourselves when we dream, we should be able to maintain a waking/sleeping/waking continuity in our minds at all times. I know that JM would say that this discontinuity is due to a shift of the assemblage point, but that doesn't really clarify anything. Experencing the amnesia of non-lucid dreaming is, to me, akin to being heavily drugged. I would truly love to overcome the effects of that 'drug' and consistently maintain the continuity of rememberance.

[Interested1]

Just out of curiousity...have you tried journaling your dreams? It really does help with recall. As you think about the dreams you journaled, you'll often remember a bit more detail or dialogue...not always, but sometimes. Just a thought...or suggestion...it's a usefull and effective way to outsmart that "drug" that keeps us from remembering...

[saxonharp]

So you would not conclude that we are dreaming all the time since you hold we are one thing awake, and another asleep? Certainly much carries over from one to the other if they are indeed two distinct things. (Something I not sure I agree with.) What interest me is the nature of the differences between waking and sleeping awareness. How, for instance, can we so completely forget that we lay down to sleep in a bed in a room somewhere when we dream? Why are lucid dreams the exception when it seems much more likely that they sould be the rule? What is preventing us from recognizing the dreaming state while it's happening? We can look from waking into dreaming but not the other way around. We are still ourselves when we dream, we should be able to maintain a waking/sleeping/waking continuity in our minds at all times. I know that JM would say that this discontinuity is due to a shift of the assemblage point, but that doesn't really clarify anything. Experencing the amnesia of non-lucid dreaming is, to me, akin to being heavily drugged. I would truly love to overcome the effects of that 'drug' and consistently maintain the continuity of rememberance. In the Lakhota Tradition, the Medicine Man or Shaman, is called "The Wounded Healer" or "He who walks in both worlds". Once you've mastered LD, which is essentially Shamanism 101, you DO "shrug off the effects of that 'drug'." Your waking life becomes an extension of your Dream life and vice versa. You truly "walk in both worlds".

[LucidFlanders]

When we think about our dream body we imagine it as an invention of the sleeping mind. When we think of our ‘real’ self we refer to our physical body - very different from our dream body. But is it? IMO, there is no other you, you are you no matter where you go. You are not your body, you're your brain, and wherever you land is where you are at, and that is you. Your body changes in dreams, but the body is just something else, whatever it is that makes us, well, US is us. What makes the waking us expierience real? right now this is all a mystery to us, we are all wondering what the hell is this, how does this work, how does that work, what does this mean, etc. But, the truth is, and it is a truth, we go wherever we go. Without our expierience, we are not there. Everythings a mystery. You are your awareness, without that, it's all unawareness, like when you don't remember your dream...you sleep, then you wake up. Although it doesn't feel like a second passed when you are unaware, when you wake up you are aware it was longer then 1 second, and it was dark, and no dream comes to your brain. I guess you're aware that you're unaware if that makes any sense. Funny how it works. edit- i can't understand what i just said..it's midnight. Bah!

[LucidFlanders]

Really? I don't think so. Is there a Dreamtime? Yes. Is the Dreamtime as real as what we call the waking world? Yes. But what are we really talking about when we are talking about "bodies"? In the Nagual, all things are Spirit. What we see and experience are only put as images into our "minds" so that we can use our minds to collect and analyze the information we receive. When Don Juan was teaching Castaneda about Knowledge, Castaneda viewed Knowledge as a giant Moth. Don Juan saw it as well, but his perception was different. I stand by what I said: "In the Dreamtime, we experience ourselves as we see ourselves." I am curious, though, why you think that would be a surprising thing for someone who follows the Toltec tradition? There is dream time, but it's not like the waking world dream time. It's a part here, then fast forward to a different time. Dream time is time hopping. Or am i not understanding? kinda tired.

[thisismylogin]

My dream body is the same as my real body

[little nemo]

Once you've mastered LD..... You've said a mouthful right there. I know most of the techniques for cultivating LDs that are listed in this forum, as well as some that aren't. I'm doing my best to practice them selectively and diligently and am getting positive results, but it's often a discouraging process. Saxonharp, what shamanic LD techniques are you familiar with aside from those set out by CC?

[saxonharp]

You've said a mouthful right there. I know most of the techniques for cultivating LDs that are listed in this forum, as well as some that aren't. I'm doing my best to practice them selectively and diligently and am getting positive results, but it's often a discouraging process. Saxonharp, what shamanic LD techniques are you familiar with aside from those set out by CC? I'm still learning.. thus my involvement here. However, most of what I've been taught is very similar to the practices set out here - with a few exceptions. We use prayer, mediation and ceremony to establish a conscious link with our Spirit Guides prior to sleep: I think y'all call it "WILDing"? Also the use of several sacred herbs used in very specific and sacred ways.