Is astral projection (OBE) real? ...and other questions.

[TheBermuda]

Hi. ^-^ I was wondering…is astral projection real? What I mean is, could it be proven? Or is astral projection sort of like the belief in ghosts, god, or UFOs...not necessarily nonexistent, but still very questionable? I just want an unbiased answer. Also: When you astral project (assuming it's actually possible), are you still on earth? Would you be able to visit other places? ...What about going into a person’s house? This is going to sound strange, but I think if I were to ever astral project, I would want to visit an old friend who lives two hours away. Even if I'm just watching them sleep. 0.o Would this be possible? And....can people still see you when you astral project? Also, can anyone astral project, and is it dangerous? Sorry. I know I have a lot of questions. Thanks for reading! ^-^

[moonshine]

My take is that Astral projection is akin to a Lucid. I mean the OBE induction techniques and WILDs are nearly identical. A bit of a give away. But an OBE Is not quite a Lucid, because despite being conscious that you're Out Of Body, you believe you're doing something other than dreaming. Yet dreams are driven by expectations. So if you want to explore the astral realm and find the orb of light, theres a good chance you will. In the same was as I once summoned a talking dog during a Lucid, cos I thought it would be funny. In other words, you're tricking youself.

[Kuhnada29]

If you really want to know the truth about all of this....smoke salvia. But be warned, if lady sage don't trust you, she won't let you be enlightened, and your trip will be horrific. Smoke salvia and you will experience what it is like to exist in the 4th density. Willingly able to access other 3d worlds other than this. And you need to really ask yourself this....do you really want to know the truth of the universe? what happened, the beginning of the universe, why do we exist, etc. ? Are you sure? because if your not ready to be enlightened, the answers will obliterate you , and scar you for life. Seriously....saliva is a powerful plant, and it's not hallucinations if so many trip reports conclude the same thing. I learned myself it's sometimes best to be ignorant of truth. Don't get too addicted to that red pill, unless you can handle it. LD's, astral projections, O.B.E.'s.....their all in the mind. And all our minds are connected like an internet...i'll stop here, and let you experience the rest for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

[spaceexplorer]

If you really want to know the truth about all of this....smoke salvia. But be warned, if lady sage don't trust you, she won't let you be enlightened, and your trip will be horrific. Smoke salvia and you will experience what it is like to exist in the 4th density. Willingly able to access other 3d worlds other than this. And you need to really ask yourself this....do you really want to know the truth of the universe? what happened, the beginning of the universe, why do we exist, etc. ? Are you sure? because if your not ready to be enlightened, the answers will obliterate you , and scar you for life. Seriously....saliva is a powerful plant, and it's not hallucinations if so many trip reports conclude the same thing. I learned myself it's sometimes best to be ignorant of truth. Don't get too addicted to that red pill, unless you can handle it. LD's, astral projections, O.B.E.'s.....their all in the mind. And all our minds are connected like an internet...i'll stop here, and let you experience the rest for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Reminds me of something LaBerge said, It was along the lines of: Lucid dreaming/Drugs etc. can show you very real convincing "truths", but just because something feels utterly real, does not mean, it isn't a very real, very convincing fantasty. Or in other words: An open mind is all very good, but If you open your mind too much your brain will fall out. Or in other words again: Don't believe everything you think.

[Arutad]

If you really want to know the truth about all of this....smoke salvia. Although I've never done any drugs myself, one of my friends tried salvia and had zero effects from it. I didn't see it, but have no reason to doubt those words. No visions, no sensations, nothing. It looks like salvia divinorum is not as divinely cool as rumored Out of interest, what kind of visions you can get with it, are they like a dream you can find yourself in, or like hypnogogic imagery that you see superimposed on the waking world?

[Beeyahoi]

DMT>Salvia

[moonshine]

Does anyone else feel that the evidence of your "senses" whilst getting ripped on mind altering drugs might not actually be.....how can I put this sensitively....100% reliable.

[Xetrov]

Well said moonshine. Though I do not really see why this topic should turn into a drug discussion, since TheBermuda had a question on AP. My take on that is kind of middle road. Though I feel there is enough interesting "evidence" not to dismiss all spirituality as crap, I stronly feel that AP's are "merely" a sub-type of very highly lucid LD's (and "merely" here does not mean less valuable or interesting). I have had lots of LD's and several "OBE's" btw. It's all in our heads, I think.

[Arutad]

I have had lots of LD's and several "OBE's" btw. It's all in our heads, I think. Actually the guy who likes drugs thought the same: LD's, astral projections, O.B.E.'s.....their all in the mind But he thinks that minds are connected.

[spaceexplorer]

DMT>Salvia Couldn't agree more. I'd also say that DMT is far far safer than Salvia. I've known very experienced people have dangerous experiences with Salvia, such as, smoking it, then waking up with no memories... on the other side of a motorway. Salvia, tends to have a strange gravity/magnetic pulling effect. Often people want to follow or move with this force... which clearly can be a bit dangerous if there is a motorway between you and the pull. Also Saliva to me has a very dark, gruby mood to it. It is certainly not a plant i would consider "friendly" to most humans. DMT on the other hand, being endogenous to the human brain, feels overwhelmingly familiar. It's impossible to put into words. But In general, however intense or mind bogglingly "out there" it gets, you tend to come away with a renewed love and appreciation of life and the universe. Ironic that DMT is illegal whilst Salvia remains legal. And just for the record, I am neither pro or anti the use of mind altering chemicals. I feel that if they are used as self exploration tools, and treated with respect, that they can be benificial. If however, they are used without respect and simply to "get wasted" then, well... you'll get nothing of use from them, and may even get burnt. Basically it'll tend to mirror your intent. As with many things in life, any non addictive mind altering chemicals are morally neutral... it is your intentions, mindset, morals and intelligence that get amplified by them. Much like money in some ways, which is also a kind of neutral tool. It's the person who is spending it that decides if it is going to be a positive or negative force in the world. Well, that's my opinion at least.

[Xetrov]

But he thinks that minds are connected. Ah that disproves minds are connected, else I would have realised that

[Xetrov]

I've known very experienced people have dangerous experiences with Salvia, such as, smoking it, then waking up with no memories... on the other side of a motorway. Salvia, tends to have a strange gravity/magnetic pulling effect. Often people want to follow or move with this force... which clearly can be a bit dangerous if there is a motorway between you and the pull. Also Saliva to me has a very dark, gruby mood to it. It is certainly not a plant i would consider "friendly" to most humans. Well if this turns to a drug-tread.. my experience on Salvia has been extremely blissful, peaceful and friendly. And yes I went nearly all the way (just not into amnesia territory since that's kinda useless). And an advice to anyone doing hallucinogens, don't do it close to a motorway (and if you are a first timer, do it with a friend who stays sober) and you will avoid that kind of trouble .

[LucidFlanders]

If you really want to know the truth about all of this....smoke salvia. But be warned, if lady sage don't trust you, she won't let you be enlightened, and your trip will be horrific. Smoke salvia and you will experience what it is like to exist in the 4th density. Willingly able to access other 3d worlds other than this. And you need to really ask yourself this....do you really want to know the truth of the universe? what happened, the beginning of the universe, why do we exist, etc. ? Are you sure? because if your not ready to be enlightened, the answers will obliterate you , and scar you for life. Seriously....saliva is a powerful plant, and it's not hallucinations if so many trip reports conclude the same thing. I learned myself it's sometimes best to be ignorant of truth. Don't get too addicted to that red pill, unless you can handle it. LD's, astral projections, O.B.E.'s.....their all in the mind. And all our minds are connected like an internet...i'll stop here, and let you experience the rest for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Oh come on man, don't be telling people they need to do drugs to expierience the truth when we really have no idea what the truth is. Also, if you really are gonna tell him to do drugs, atleast tell him to study it before he does it, and do small doses. Last thing you want is some new guy doing a major dose and being fucked up for life because some guy on the net did not tell him to study it first, not that he has to know from us, as it's pretty common knowledge to study things you are wanting to do, and don't know anything about it to begin with. Start off studying it for a month or so, learn everything about the drug, learn a shit ton of expieriences from other people who have done it, and start off by doing the smallest dose for a beginner. I have no idea about the smallest dose, never done drugs, and not alot of study but i'm not doing it because of personal reasons i will not mention. Also, if you are to do this drug....sit in a chair, and have a buddy watch you just incase. I don't think there have been any cases of deaths by this drug though, but just because there has not been, does not mean there wont ever be by some dumbass who deserved it. As for knowing the secrets of the universe....i have for many many years, i wanna know everything before i die so i wont die not knowing anything, it's not really fair.

[LucidFlanders]

Well said moonshine. Though I do not really see why this topic should turn into a drug discussion, since TheBermuda had a question on AP. My take on that is kind of middle road. Though I feel there is enough interesting "evidence" not to dismiss all spirituality as crap, I stronly feel that AP's are "merely" a sub-type of very highly lucid LD's (and "merely" here does not mean less valuable or interesting). I have had lots of LD's and several "OBE's" btw. It's all in our heads, I think. Everything is in your head, Everything. If someone thinks this is real, and it's really happening they need to figure out this is all created from the brain, and not some 2 way vision from the eyes (as they are only 1 way...and that's outwards from the brain to the eyes).

[Kuhnada29]

Oh come on man, don't be telling people they need to do drugs to expierience the truth when we really have no idea what the truth is. Also, if you really are gonna tell him to do drugs, atleast tell him to study it before he does it, and do small doses. Last thing you want is some new guy doing a major dose and being fucked up for life because some guy on the net did not tell him to study it first, not that he has to know from us, as it's pretty common knowledge to study things you are wanting to do, and don't know anything about it to begin with. your right. if you want more information. http://www.erowid.org/plants/salvia/salvia.shtml To all of these people calling it a drug...i don't think it deserves that..i mean it's a natural occurring plant...from the earth..that's still legal in the U.S. in some states...that's like calling a tree a drug. Also you don't even want to be sitting in a chair, just lay down in your bed after you take your hit, close your eyes and relax. Once you hit salvia, you will be completely disconnected from the physical world, if your at the high enough dose. It's supposed to be used in a spiritual manner, not as some party drug. Which is why it's banned now in some states, because idiots want to act like fools on youtube. If you do use it as the latter, your going to be on the floor looking like you have down syndrome, drooling and babbling like a complete idiot. This is my opinion, but I believe Salvia to be the single most intense psychedelic experience, maybe most intense experience in general, one can experience, with maybe the exception of DMT. If your not ready, one hit of 60x extract , your mind could be recoiling in pure, panicked terror at the state of awareness and the perceptions of true reality that this plant launches you into. A 17 year old boy committed suicide, he found out the answers to the universe and concluded our life is pointless. Which is pretty sad, I think maybe he was already depressed. I think once you DO know the answers, you should cherish life, enjoy it while it lasts. We are all here to experience. --------------------- Your absolutely right lucidflanders...everything is created by the brain..or rather decoded. When you look at an object, the object gives off a vibration, and sends light particles to the back of the brain. When it's sent to the back of the brain, the signal is decoded, and you register it as an object. In my own opinion ( not based on scientific fact, well kind of in a way ), I think that decoding is "belief". It ties in perfectly with "wave-particle duality" and the double slit experiment. If it is belief..than there is no way you could prove that scientifically, because you can't determine what someone else believes on a subconscious level...at least not at this time. But their getting closer.

[LucidFlanders]

When you did this, what did you find the meaning of life was? just that we are bacteria? I don't really care what it is myself, just that i know the truth before i die. I think it's better to know the truth, then to be ignorant to it. It's only considered a drug because it's not what you see in the waking reality, it's some other reality, and can blind you from seeing the waking reality. They will say what is stopping you from walking off your balcony on this? nothing, you will be in a different kind of reality and die because the waking one is the right reality. Atleast that is what i think they will say why it's illegal, and why it's called a drug.

[Kuhnada29]

When you did this, what did you find the meaning of life was? just that we are bacteria? No. I don't really care what it is myself, just that i know the truth before i die. I think it's better to know the truth, then to be ignorant to it. Right...but the truth can be so unbelievable to what most people are conditioned to think, that anyone who does state what it is, will be labeled crazy and/or insane. As long as YOU know what it is in the back of your mind, than that's ok. Once you do know, you'll enjoy life a lot more.[/quote] It's only considered a drug because it's not what you see in the waking reality, it's some other reality, and can blind you from seeing the waking reality. They will say what is stopping you from walking off your balcony on this? nothing, you will be in a different kind of reality and die because the waking one is the right reality. Atleast that is what i think they will say why it's illegal, and why it's called a drug. right, that's how they see it in their eyes...that's why people should be educated on it, it's effects, and how to properly use it. rather than making it illegal where people are going to do it anyway. As for the original post, i think OBE's and astral travel is definitely possible IF what Parapsychologists like to believe is true. And that's consciousness isn't confined to the brain. It would explain a lot of paranormal stuff. But new science is getting closer. It's all interesting, and I myself can't wait to see science get closer and closer to it..if they can. Or what would be really interesting if they will be able to manipulate this cosmic energy. Mainstream science is just moving to slow...their now JUST figuring out that we're in a multiverse.

[Xetrov]

Everything is in your head, Everything. If someone thinks this is real, and it's really happening they need to figure out this is all created from the brain, and not some 2 way vision from the eyes (as they are only 1 way...and that's outwards from the brain to the eyes). What I meant is, as opposed to NDE experiences, where there might be consciousness without brain activity and there is no visual center active (proof of this is gathering), OBE's launched from sleep and LD's happen while the brain is creating the images. If this is true then obviously during an NDE, not everything is in your head.

[Kuhnada29]

What I meant is, as opposed to NDE experiences, where there might be consciousness without brain activity and there is no visual center active (proof of this is gathering), OBE's launched from sleep and LD's happen while the brain is creating the images. If this is true then obviously during an NDE, not everything is in your head. not in your head, as in the brain..but the mind. The mind is creating thoughts and emotions, consciousness is observing (watching, witnessing) them. I see it like this, the body is just a robot, the body including the brain is hardware. Consciousness...or awareness is the software. It's the programmer and the body is the program. If the programmer left the program, or if consciousness left the body, the body would still exist, as long as no harm was done to it that would cause it to die by the physic laws of this universe. but it would have no controller telling it what to do. It would still do things like pumping the heart, breathing, you know basic things that allow the body to survive. The subconscious or the mind would still be with body. It would still contain emotions, thoughts, experiences. But if the consciousness isn't in the body than there is no one to observe those thoughts, emotions, and experiences. Without a controller..i wonder if the body would just sit there waiting for the return of the programmer, not making any movements.....any movements would be purely instinctual, there must be a connection or bond between conscious and subconscious. With salvia users, if they are tripping out bad, they'll make scared gestures or say something really crazy like "help me" or something, but they weren't aware of it. It was actually their subconscious acting out instinctualy. Maybe when the hardware dies, this time your consciousness leaves the body..but takes the subconscious with it. This is all speculation, but you gotta admit this is interesting. This hasn't been proven by science.....yet! speculation: a hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with little hard evidence);..just so we're clear. Another thought comes to mind: It seems that when when we're dreaming at night, the subconscious is just playing out it's memories, experiences, desires and thoughts...but when you become lucid, or aware...then your observing the subconscious playing out and immediately become the controller. It makes so much sense. Then dreams are just the program executing itself out, with no programmer until you become lucid or aware.

[Xetrov]

Ok I understand your view. I see it differently, though. The body as hardware, there I agree. But the sofware, to me, would be the mind, the thoughts and ideas and memories we posess. I see consciousness as the witness of the interaction between hard-and software. There is research done though on the subject of NDE's. Try and read some here: http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page23.htm

[Kuhnada29]

Ok I understand your view. I see it differently, though. The body as hardware, there I agree. But the sofware, to me, would be the mind, the thoughts and ideas and memories we posess. I see consciousness as the witness of the interaction between hard-and software. hm..Interesting. So then consciousness would be like the the observer of the program AND the programmer. Experiencing it, testing it out. What you said makes more sense, seeing as how we can't just program something into our mind unless it's on a subconscious level. Like autosuggestion, you ( the conscious mind, observer, programmer ) keep repeating a message over and over and eventually it reaches the software ( subconscious ) and changes it. I'll look over that link you posted also.

[Arutad]

What I meant is, as opposed to NDE experiences, where there might be consciousness without brain activity and there is no visual center active (proof of this is gathering), OBE's launched from sleep and LD's happen while the brain is creating the images. If this is true then obviously during an NDE, not everything is in your head. NDEs happen when brain is still functioning, as I understand. Feel free to prove me wrong. I think that if all your brain cells would die, they wouldn't restore themselves. You wouldn't be able to come back from such a NDE.

[lucidspark64]

Out of bodies haven't been proven to the public at this point. Although I was convinced that I had an OBE like a month ago, I still want to be skeptical. It could have just been a very vivid lucid dream the mimic me and the room really well. It could be proven to yourself. If you ever think your having an OBE, perform the digital clock/re-reading reality check. Triple check it and if the time or words don't change, then it must be real. Unless your mind is good at stablizing characters.

[Xetrov]

NDEs happen when brain is still functioning, as I understand. Feel free to prove me wrong. I think that if all your brain cells would die, they wouldn't restore themselves. You wouldn't be able to come back from such a NDE. Actually this is only partly right. Of course the whole brain cant be 100% dead yet at the moment of NDE, however certain parts of it for sure have totally shut down (mostly the upper "higher" evolved regions). This is not so weird as it may seem, because it even happens in deep sleep (where your visual cortex just shuts down for a while). Also, there has been some research done into this. My guess why it is not widely known is possibly because western science is extremely cautious when it comes to spiritual explanations (and at times just plainly dismissive even if there is at least some evidence to suggest that there's more to it than materialistic explanations.. this doesnt mean it has to be so, just that it could be). The link i showed in above post is pretty good in explaining this, if you have some time please read it if you are interested: http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page23.htm It's maybe quite a read but very interesting. I would post more links to people who actually did the reasearch but I have to go to work now, I could investigate it later and see what I can come up with. That article I posted should already link to most of it though.

[Xetrov]

Out of bodies haven't been proven to the public at this point. Although I was convinced that I had an OBE like a month ago, I still want to be skeptical. It could have just been a very vivid lucid dream the mimic me and the room really well. It could be proven to yourself. If you ever think your having an OBE, perform the digital clock/re-reading reality check. Triple check it and if the time or words don't change, then it must be real. Unless your mind is good at stablizing characters. OBE's from sleep, trance and LD's are actually totally different from NDE's. My guess would be that all these OBE's are actually (advanced) LD's whereas possibly at NDE's, something more is going on.