Am I goin crazy? Suppressed memories keep coming back!!

[Naturally Lucid]

Maybe not suppressed, but... there's a yoga "philosophy" that says if you give up your personal possessions (mentally and even physically), even attachments to people, and other things you hold on to, that because you no longer have material possessions in the way. Then these memories of your life (present, even the one just past and the one to come) come to you. The more I practice this, the more crazy it makes me feel. But it's also liberating. I remember things that my "old trusty memory" can't help me remember! lol ! And the weird thing is that the more I do it, the stranger the memories are. They are so tucked away and I wasn't even thinking about them. Things that have nothing to do with what I was doing. It's like a child asking you 50 different questions in 1 hour, and each has nothing to do with each other! It's also pretty cool. What a paradox! Sometimes I get a "key word" and all these memories related to this come back at once...and if I focus on one thing, it seems they are now available to me, as though I can now access files that I didn't have a "password" for!! Anyone else have any experiences, stories, or explanations for me?

[IWantToChange]

Hi, what is it exactly that you've been practicing that gave you such an amazing result? Sometimes I get a "key word" and all these memories related to this come back at once...and if I focus on one thing, it seems they are now available to me, as though I can now access files that I didn't have a "password" for!! Anyone else have any experiences, stories, or explanations for me? That sounds really great, I envy you But if you've been practicing something specialized, it's unlikely that people at a lucid dreaming forum know much about it. Maybe you should find people who practice the same kind of "yoga" that you mentioned?

[Robot_Butler]

Are these real memories from your past that you had previously forgotten? Or are they dream-type memories, or memories from another life? I would love to know what you are doing to encourage this. Do you spend time meditating trying to 'let go'? Or is it more something you carry with you throughout the day?

[dweezil]

hey. i started hypnosis and my memories have started to come back. the first time was like you described, stuff bubbled up and all the feelings were really intense, but the next time was slow and muggy. i go into deep, deep relaxation and then imagine a filing cabinet in my minds eye. i open it, look inside and take out files that interest me. i have remembered all sorts of mad stuff from doing this. meditation relaxes us in a similar way to hypnosis and then you can tap into your subconscious. i also keep track of my dreams to compare with these hypnotic memories. it's pretty cool.

[Robot_Butler]

I wonder if there is a similar way to do this with lost dream memories. I don't know enough about memory, but I'm assuming it would not work the same way, because dream memories are more short term memories, and disappear so quickly. That would be incredible, though, if all your forgotten dreams were still somewhere in your mind.

[Naturally Lucid]

It's basically aparigraha (?) and it's just letting go of thoughts, relationships(mentally), even physical possessions, but not necessarially, it's more of the mental attachment you have to things, it can even be an attachment to "power". It usually happens to me at night because it's easier to let go of these things at night. They are real memories, I just get a "flash" and I'm like "omg, I remember that! how could I have forgotten that?!!" Then there are times that I focus on a place or a memory that only happened once. The creepy thing about this is that I'll remember the strangest and forgotten details about a place that seemed to have a "fog" around them when I use my "normal memory" Lol. For example, how the layout of the room was, what was on the wall, I even remember playing "Kings in the Corner" in one place, something I had buried in my memory! Now that was cool and creapy all at once.. It's the perfect way to get subconsious work done beyond what lucid dreaming can do....I would also say letting go of your "schedule", because lets face it, it always changes, and we are SO attached to our "time".... Didn't jesus say "give up your possessions and you will have 'eternal life'"... not in heaven, but access to your "eternal life"...I don't mean to offend anyone, but think about it! I believe Dido has a song that I love. It goes something like "...cause nothing I have is truly mine" SO true, it's all on loan to us, sooner or later someone else will need to use it I've also found that even hanging on to these memories that you see can cause them to 'fade' -- you have to let them flow, so to speak. I've also found that mentally giving up your possessions for a meditation period, if you sincerely give them up, most of them, then this can happen,too. Also, I haven't given up everything yet, even practicing a little bit produces these weird results, and the best way to "see" them is at night with your eyes closed, meditation, or right when you wake up and your mind is clear ROBOT BUTLER: I can tell the difference between dream memories and waking memories, and I seem to remember dreams this way, but in a more limited sense...they're all abstract anyways..

[Naturally Lucid]

The reason I think I've been successful in this is 1) I've meditated for more than 1 year, but known about it for about 4 years. 2)The Yoga and evenBuddhist philosophies of letting go. Even Christianity has the teaching of letting go of fleshly desired, all religions are more alike that people want them to be. They think theirs in the "best"... don't judge... and a lot of religions believe theirs is the way to salvation and so does every other belief, so who is correct? And you must realize that even "letting go" is a paradox because what happens is you end up attaching yourself to this practice of letting go that you become attached to this practice, when in fact you should let it just flow. Change is the only constant...we have to let life flow through us. We can't control it in any way. Here's another paradox: Carlos Castaneda said something like "You must make every action count and do it as well as you can, do the very best that you can, BUT at the same time know that no one would care that you did it or that it might fail." Life is a paradox. Learn from it. You have to learn to meditate and let go of your thoughts, but the longer you practice this, the more you will realize that trying to force yourself not to think is only doing what you are trying to avoid. Just let it flow You cannot get attached to praise or shame; fear or joy; anything. When you let go of more things, even emotions, but without holding back, for example, tears... you don't get attached to the "raw hook" and thoughts that come with the emotions... but if you need to (cry/shout/etc, you do, you let them flow, if you need to leave the room to do it, please do, lol) the more you do this, the more memories seem to flow through (me), but don't get attached to the memories even. Just live. Imagine being born, being on your death bed, or that state when you wake up in the morning and you can't remember your name or what year it is... this is detachment. I also think that some people need to face their fears "dead on"...but slowly and only what they can handle...there are parts of everyone's subconscious that needs to be healed. Sometimes dreams (LDs) can help with this. But stop taking the same route and doing things in exactly the same way...do something different. When you see yourself getting in a rut, especially if the reason is because you are avoiding something (you always take ___ classes because you are afraid that you might have to give a speech in that class....Most of the time we don't realize what we are doing these things.) I've also listened to Shamanic drumming which seems to relax me and find things in my subsconsious just by "drifting" and listening to it. Don't expect the results to come right away, that's forcing them/controlling them.... being attached in a way... they will come when you have practiced it correctly. There's also a yoga forum called yogaforums.com. Not sure how indepth it will be... TRUST ME EVEN I HAVE DIFFICULTY PRACTICING THIS! BUT LIFE IS A ROLLERCOASTER LOL

[IWantToChange]

I'm still unsure about the process. Do you just sit and think: I let go of this, I let go of that, etc.?

[Keitorin]

This does sound interesting. Anyway, I looked up the word "aparigraha" and found this on Wikipedia: Aparigraha is the concept of non-possessiveness, being both a Jain concept and a part of the Raja Yoga or Ashtanga Yoga traditions. The term usually means to limit possessions to what is necessary or important, which changes with the time period, though sadhus would not have any possessions. It is one of the five principles of Jainism, along with Ahimsa (non-violence), Asteya (non-stealing), Brahmacharya (celibacy), and Anekantvada (multiplicity of viewpoints)[citation needed]. It is also one of the five limited vows. In the Raja Yoga tradition, it is one of the Yamas or codes of self-restraint, along with Ahimsa (non-violence), Satya (truthfulness), Asteya (not stealing), Brahmacharya (celibacy). Here's another that sounds more along the lines of what Naturally Lucid was saying: Aparigraha Non-possessiveness, non-hoarding, not desiring more than we need When first starting to consider aparigraha, there are a few important elements which must be considered. What does it mean to possess something? What does it mean to need something? What are some of the objects, ideas, and beliefs that you possess? Does it seem that you need these possessions? When we hold our breath, we actively prohibit the experience of a new breath. When we are holding so much that our hands are full, we prohibit the capacity to hold even one more item. When we set forth holding pre-determined ideas and beliefs, we inhibit our capacity to discover new ideas and experiences. Therefore, we must carefully consider which objects and ideas we choose to hold on to. For most of us, our homes and minds are full of various objects and ideas which we did not consciously choose to possess. Perhaps we inherited these from our families, perhaps we received them as gifts – there are countless possibilities. Aparigraha encourages us to consider our possessions with attention and awareness. - http://www.yogawithamey.com/aparigraha.html Another useful link in regards to Aparigraha with Yoga (also has guides): http://www.openmindbody.com/aparigrahalessonplan.htm Google search: http://www.google.com/search?q=aparigraha

[blue_space87]

I wonder if there is a similar way to do this with lost dream memories. I don't know enough about memory, but I'm assuming it would not work the same way, because dream memories are more short term memories, and disappear so quickly. That would be incredible, though, if all your forgotten dreams were still somewhere in your mind. I believe you have more access to previous dreams whilst dreaming. Sometimes, when dreaming, I'll remember a previous dream, even if I'm not lucid, not that I have properly been lucid. I've noticed the deeper you fall unconscious, or rather, the less your conscious mind functions, the more access to less-active or consciously-ignored memories you have. For instance; in a state of trance under hypnotic suggestion, one may gain spontaneous or progressive access to childhood memories or specific memories; memories associated with specific times and or dates, rather than significant memories to your conscious mind (I.e. going on holiday at a certain time is more significant to what you had done last monday, last year).

[Robot_Butler]

I would be worried about false memories. Often, in dreams, I find myself having all sorts of memories that just appeared to fit into the current narrative. For example, I will find myself in a wolf's body, standing in the snow. Even though I know it is a dream, and the dream only started moments ago, I seem to remember exactly how I became a werewolf. I have this whole false history that fits the dream. I didn't experience it, but the memories are still there.

[blue_space87]

I would be worried about false memories. Often, in dreams, I find myself having all sorts of memories that just appeared to fit into the current narrative. For example, I will find myself in a wolf's body, standing in the snow. Even though I know it is a dream, and the dream only started moments ago, I seem to remember exactly how I became a werewolf. I have this whole false history that fits the dream. I didn't experience it, but the memories are still there. As I mentioned, it could simply be a previous dream your remembering. Also, you're on the same level of consciousness as you had been during a previous dream; if you had a dream a year ago and had dream tonight, you are more likely to remember the dream a year ago, mostly due to the access to memory within your subconscious - in the waking reality, your conscious mind will mostly function to the waking reality; memories are more easily accessed to the waking reality - that is to say, dreams are less likely to be discovered, whilst conscious awakening memories are more easily accessed within the waking reality. Think of it as... whilst awake, you stand outside the cave. You see the world as it would be and anything of which you experience whilst outside the cave, creates a little stone, the experiences of most significance create rocks outside the cave. However, when falling unconscious or asleep, you go deeper into the cave, deeper to find more stones and rocks - mostly associated with your dreams. However, if you take a stone from inside the cave, or rock, to your waking reality - to take the stone/rock outside the cave, you will remember what had occurred from inside. Hope this helps.

[Robot_Butler]

So, you think my false memories are actually memories of previous dreams? That is an interesting idea. It would make a nice explanation, but it does not feel right to me. The memories are just too convenient, fit too well, and appear too easily. I can actually feel myself creating them as I am remembering them, if that makes sense. I can see what you are saying on another level, though. Dreams are false memories to begin with, so creating new ones while in a dream is only really an extention of dreaming. That sounds confusing, but I think you know what I mean. I wake up, and remember a dream where I remembered some fake memories. At no point did I actually live any of those memories. The are all inventions. I guess that is where lucid dreaming can be a real benefit. You can actually experience the dream as you are having it, instead of just remembering it after waking.

[blue_space87]

So, you think my false memories are actually memories of previous dreams? That is an interesting idea. It would make a nice explanation, but it does not feel right to me. The memories are just too convenient, fit too well, and appear too easily. I can actually feel myself creating them as I am remembering them, if that makes sense. I can see what you are saying on another level, though. Dreams are false memories to begin with, so creating new ones while in a dream is only really an extention of dreaming. That sounds confusing, but I think you know what I mean. I wake up, and remember a dream where I remembered some fake memories. At no point did I actually live any of those memories. The are all inventions. I guess that is where lucid dreaming can be a real benefit. You can actually experience the dream as you are having it, instead of just remembering it after waking. Something I thought of earlier last night... "You should neither worry of the past, nor future but rather the present". That is to say, nothing else matters other than what you're conscious of; the present. Whether it be the very moment now, fading into the past, or yourself reading along this sentence - and thus, being the present, or whether for you to be remembering something - the past becoming the present, or accumulating the future - for the future or from what you assume to becoming the present. I'm a little skeptic of being capable of creating false memories without inducing them. To induce memories, a variety of techniques can be adapted... Three of which are based on three factors; your imagination, an alternative reality - a dream, whether it be lucid or non-lucid and the present. Although I haven't experienced a proper lucid dream, and it may be bias for me to state something as such; a conscious dream to be for your consciousness to function as to how it would now - the only distinctive attributes in contrast to reality, would be the lack of sensory perception of the waking reality. That is to say, that your senses interpreting the waking reality had no longer signaled information to your conscious mind, whilst you had become susceptible to your inner-sensory perception; you would be capable of projecting your imagination into reality, as reality no longer conflicts with your imaginative mind. For the conscious mind to function within a lucid dream as to functioning within the waking reality, may be a reason as to why you feel a lucid dream being the very moment, rather than to be the past - to be the present, rather than to remember the dream. Think of the cave scenario again, the rocks are being thrown out of the cave, rather than being dropped inside as they would be when in a normal dream. A normal dream would act in the present; you would be conscious in a dream, but only conscious to a minimum; your consciousness would be completely susceptible to the environment your subconscious produces for you to experience. The lack of access to dream memories, with recall only retrieving memories less vivid, would make a dream seem as to the past. However, most importantly, if the past exists, it must have become the present? The same principle applies to the future; in order for the future to occur, it must become the present. Inevitably, the present will become the past. An quick idea I thought of whilst typing this response: I was wondering, perhaps dreams are fundamental to the maintaining of consciousness. Perhaps, we are always conscious - consciousness always exists, regardless of nature. Perhaps, dreams are not only utilized for the storing of memory, but to also maintain consciousness. For instance; many people have reported NDE's - near death experiences, during the process of death - some manage to return to the waking reality, but the process to me, seems a way of maintaining consciousness through to another reality. Dreams seem a way to prevent a gap between time at which we sleep, to again, maintain consciousness. Anyways, hope my post helps.

[Arutad]

As I mentioned, it could simply be a previous dream your remembering. Also, you're on the same level of consciousness as you had been during a previous dream; if you had a dream a year ago and had dream tonight, you are more likely to remember the dream a year ago, mostly due to the access to memory within your subconscious That wasn't for me, but I'll jump in. Hi Like Robot_Butler, I think that creation of false-memories feels too artificial and fitting to be memories of real dreams. Especially in lucid dreams they feel artificial. Say, you're in your room in a LD and you see how a door opens. You wonder what's going on, a door opening on its own?! And suddenly a "memory" pops up: my brother\mother\whoever must be going here now, we agreed on that... And here comes a row of other "memories" about how you agreed on that. And all that knowledge conveniently came to you just because you started wondering why the door was opening... I'm a little skeptic of being capable of creating false memories without inducing them. To induce memories, a variety of techniques can be adapted... Three of which are based on three factors; your imagination, an alternative reality - a dream, whether it be lucid or non-lucid and the present. Could you elaborate about these methods, were you successful in trying them out?

[blue_space87]

That wasn't for me, but I'll jump in. Hi Like Robot_Butler, I think that creation of false-memories feels too artificial and fitting to be memories of real dreams. Especially in lucid dreams they feel artificial. Say, you're in your room in a LD and you see how a door opens. You wonder what's going on, a door opening on its own?! And suddenly a "memory" pops up: my brother\mother\whoever must be going here now, we agreed on that... And here comes a row of other "memories" about how you agreed on that. And all that knowledge conveniently came to you just because you started wondering why the door was opening... Could you elaborate about these methods, were you successful in trying them out? I haven't successfully achieved lucidity as to yet, however, we all know from within the waking reality - the conscious world, our memories are legitimate. Some may be slightly disordered in contrast to what had occured, whilst the majority - 90%+ appear in correct order and shape. I've managed to create false memories through the use of my imagination - but couldn't create an hour if I hadn't proceeded through an hour. I cannot compress - and don't believe you can compress one hour into five minutes or so. For instance; if I were to create a memory that had exceeded an hour and had only been imagining the instance for five minutes, that memory would never proceed through an hour, simply because I wasn't conscious throughout the hour. Consider a video you create on your PC, it elapses throughout an hour and will only elapse throughout an hour, no longer; no less (Depending upon the level of compression*). *If we are to be conscious of our memories and to experience as the initial situation had occurred, time would process slower for all details to be achieve; for the complete clarity of memory - for the past to then become the future. In contrast however, if time was to go faster, memory would appear less to the time it had proceeded. I.e. you may find the day to go fast as a result of your brain not producing as much consciousness as it had done previous. If I remember my false memories, they will only elapse throughout the time I had proceeded to produce them within - the time I had imagined the scenario for. What I'm saying is, in order for memory to be stored, whether they be false of legitimate memories, the time they exceed throughout is required to be applied initially in order for the memories to proceed within the given amount of time. I.e. 5 minutes in the present required to create a 5 minute instance of memory of the present; the now past. Hope this helps.

[LucidFreedoM]

I'm still unsure about the process. Do you just sit and think: I let go of this, I let go of that, etc.? Im also unsure of this as well..someone needs to actually explain..

[Arutad]

I've managed to create false memories through the use of my imagination - but couldn't create an hour if I hadn't proceeded through an hour. I cannot compress - and don't believe you can compress one hour into five minutes or so. Hm, usually when we remember, we don't remember an event fully. That's what I noticed. Memories are always "compressed". In fact, my attempts to remember details usually fail, only a few details get remembered, but there's no exact word-by-word conversation with all the pauses, no precise continuous memory of what you were thinking and what you looked at, etc. Only occasional glimpses of something that stood out and became memorable enough to stuck. So to me memories look compressed to their utmost... There's almost nothing detailed in them, they're more like an outline of something that happened. And skipping through them is pretty fast. Consider a video you create on your PC, it elapses throughout an hour and will only elapse throughout an hour, no longer; no less (Depending upon the level of compression*). But we can't remember everything as it were, there's no continuous memory of the past millisecond-by-millisecond, so I think comparing our mind to a PC-created video isn't very fair... If we are to be conscious of our memories and to experience as the initial situation had occurred, time would process slower for all details to be achieve; for the complete clarity of memory - for the past to then become the future. In contrast however, if time was to go faster, memory would appear less to the time it had proceeded. Not sure that I follow you, why would time process slower if you managed to remember all the details? I.e. you may find the day to go fast as a result of your brain not producing as much consciousness as it had done previous. Why do you think that the speed of time and the amount of consciousness are related?

[Arutad]

Im also unsure of this as well..someone needs to actually explain.. People get such experiences with LSD, meditation, etc. No big secret or miracle, you alter the state of your mind and random garbage that was used to be kept tight inside starts to leak out, creating visions. What you make of this garbage is up to you.

[blue_space87]

Hm, usually when we remember, we don't remember an event fully. That's what I noticed. Memories are always "compressed". In fact, my attempts to remember details usually fail, only a few details get remembered, but there's no exact word-by-word conversation with all the pauses, no precise continuous memory of what you were thinking and what you looked at, etc. Only occasional glimpses of something that stood out and became memorable enough to stuck. So to me memories look compressed to their utmost... There's almost nothing detailed in them, they're more like an outline of something that happened. And skipping through them is pretty fast. But we can't remember everything as it were, there's no continuous memory of the past millisecond-by-millisecond, so I think comparing our mind to a PC-created video isn't very fair... Not sure that I follow you, why would time process slower if you managed to remember all the details? Why do you think that the speed of time and the amount of consciousness are related? Sorry, I used a poor example (The PC vs brain). A more significant example would be one of your friends or someone you may know; sometimes, someone may notify you of how the day seems to be progressing fast, whilst another may tell you of how the day seems to be going slower - one is perceiving more detail and thus, the brain is producing more consciousness, whilst the other is viewing less detail - less consciousness. If we observe the detail of dreams - and dreams are more conveniently compared to reality, that would be to say; being conscious of reality as you are in the waking world - focused upon one entity or such, and not to be notable of the surroundings whilst focusing on one significance. For instance, dreams evidently display how our minds capture each piece of data from reality, from the texture of the floors, to the patterns of the sky, the sprinkles of water from the sky, etc. However, although are brains capture this large amount of data - or all data possibly interpreted by our senses, consciously, we're compelled from routing through such data; our conscious minds are only capable of routing through data we were conscious of.

[Arutad]

Now I see what you mean. But something doesn't let me agree even now... About time speed: You said that "If we are to be conscious of our memories and to experience as the initial situation had occurred, time would process slower for all details to be achieved". If you sit at home all day and do nothing, time drags painfully slow for you, and for somebody who has a lot of responsibilities hours fly by quickly. Don't you notice more details and don't you process more information when you're out and busy? If you sit home and watch TV all day, or just sit on your sofa feeling bored and thinking what to do, then you can only see the same old "details" of your room, and yet time flows much slower. So if we're having more access to detail and if that means that we're more conscious (I still cannot see a direct link), then time flows by quicker instead of slower. If we observe the detail of dreams - and dreams are more conveniently compared to reality, that would be to say; being conscious of reality as you are in the waking world - focused upon one entity or such, and not to be notable of the surroundings whilst focusing on one significance. For instance, dreams evidently display how our minds capture each piece of data from reality, from the texture of the floors, to the patterns of the sky, the sprinkles of water from the sky, etc. However, although are brains capture this large amount of data - or all data possibly interpreted by our senses, consciously, we're compelled from routing through such data; our conscious minds are only capable of routing through data we were conscious of. I like how you describe consciousness in dreams, and I certainly agree! But then if data doesn't draw our attention to each of its elements and we're only able to route through what data we're conscious of, then I can see no direct link between the amount of details around and the amount of consciousness. It follows from your words that more details can't produce more consciousness, because consciousness has no habit of paying attention to all the details present around.

[blue_space87]

Now I see what you mean. But something doesn't let me agree even now... About time speed: You said that "If we are to be conscious of our memories and to experience as the initial situation had occurred, time would process slower for all details to be achieved". If you sit at home all day and do nothing, time drags painfully slow for you, and for somebody who has a lot of responsibilities hours fly by quickly. Don't you notice more details and don't you process more information when you're out and busy? If you sit home and watch TV all day, or just sit on your sofa feeling bored and thinking what to do, then you can only see the same old "details" of your room, and yet time flows much slower. So if we're having more access to detail and if that means that we're more conscious (I still cannot see a direct link), then time flows by quicker instead of slower. I like how you describe consciousness in dreams, and I certainly agree! But then if data doesn't draw our attention to each of its elements and we're only able to route through what data we're conscious of, then I can see no direct link between the amount of details around and the amount of consciousness. It follows from your words that more details can't produce more consciousness, because consciousness has no habit of paying attention to all the details present around. I mean, if we're in higher states of consciousness, perhaps brainwaves are functioning of a beta or gamma rather than an alpha or less or perhaps between one of the others, the brain may produce more consciousness, rather than a minimum. Let me clarify: -No surroundings, just thoughts - the lowest amount, the brain still registers data from the five senses but doesn't allow it to produce consciousness - time can sometimes go faster. I know from my experience in just thought rather than taking note of my surroundings, time seems to pass by extremely fast. Also, consider dreams, they seem to pass time almost instantaneous upon awakening - that is only if you had little to no recall of your dream however. -Awake, surroundings but lack of cognitive activity - you're completely aware of the world around you, perhaps not every piece of detail, but a larger amount in comparison to what you would notice whilst drunk for instance. Time may progress slower at this point in time, mainly due to your experience of a larger amount of data - your consciousness would perceive more data in contrast to another state. -Focused, as a result of being focused upon one thing, you'll only be conscious of one entity - but rather of many attributes. Take the computer screen you're observing now for instance, you see a majority of details, but little to no details of the surroundings within the room you're inside. From personal experience, time seems to go faster whilst focused upon one entity at a time; the brain is required to produce less consciousness and as a result of less data being viewed, time seems to go faster - on the contrary, being bored with nothing to do and noticing more data and simultaneously being conscious of it, your brain would seem to be producing more consciousness, creating the slower time effect.

[Arutad]

Okay, but I still can't see how you create links and why you're sure that things you're speaking about are connected. time seems to go faster whilst focused upon one entity at a time; the brain is required to produce less consciousness and as a result of less data being viewed, time seems to go faster Let's say that you're looking at a computer screen, e.g. reading a forum - why would this action produce less consciousness than standing still in the middle of your room? It sounds as if the only thing that defines consciousness for you is how many physical objects it can encompass, if I get your idea right. But while you're at your computer, you have to work your brain a lot, to perceive sentences out of separate letters, to make sense of what somebody says, to decide whether you're interested in a particular thread or not, etc. There are a lot of effort required and a lot details involved, a lot of data, it can't be easily said that you're focused upon one entity all the time. Although this is how you look from somebody else's point of view, who can't see the workings of your mind and observes your action from the outside. It's as if you define consciousness by its capacity to notice physical\external objects only, as if consciousness can only be directed externally and no internal "objects" exist. being bored with nothing to do and noticing more data and simultaneously being conscious of it, your brain would seem to be producing more consciousness I never noticed that while being bored I detect more physical objects around! So I cannot see a reliable ground for your conclusion for now. When bored you just seem to become reluctant to do anything in particular, jumping from one idea or memory to another, without finding any of them an attractive thing to think about or to do. But all this attention is what your thoughts and ideas get, not physical objects around.

[blue_space87]

Okay, but I still can't see how you create links and why you're sure that things you're speaking about are connected. Let's say that you're looking at a computer screen, e.g. reading a forum - why would this action produce less consciousness than standing still in the middle of your room? It sounds as if the only thing that defines consciousness for you is how many physical objects it can encompass, if I get your idea right. But while you're at your computer, you have to work your brain a lot, to perceive sentences out of separate letters, to make sense of what somebody says, to decide whether you're interested in a particular thread or not, etc. There are a lot of effort required and a lot details involved, a lot of data, it can't be easily said that you're focused upon one entity all the time. Although this is how you look from somebody else's point of view, who can't see the workings of your mind and observes your action from the outside. It's as if you define consciousness by its capacity to notice physical\external objects only, as if consciousness can only be directed externally and no internal "objects" exist. I never noticed that while being bored I detect more physical objects around! So I cannot see a reliable ground for your conclusion for now. When bored you just seem to become reluctant to do anything in particular, jumping from one idea or memory to another, without finding any of them an attractive thing to think about or to do. But all this attention is what your thoughts and ideas get, not physical objects around. Personally, and I'm sure others seem to view in a similar or coincidentally the same perspective as myself, I see the consciousness in awareness - as it is purely defined. The higher the consciousnesses, the higher the awareness and so forth. The more awareness, the more presence and thus, the more entities and attributes become notable. Consciousness is defined as your awareness, not your inner-activity; inner activity would be to say your subjective mind at work - forming the letters on the screen, concluding as to whether a given website as a forum or such - converting currency, recognizing faces, and so forth. The act of this is mostly sophisticated; to be based upon previous complexity. An example of this would be your subconscious comprehending symbols - later to become letters, forming the letters - to become words, groups of letters - to become sentences, and so forth. If it's already understood that given symbols are to become letters, then there's no need for the subconscious to repeat to complexity - there's no need to repeat the entire process over again, but rather the most significant - and definite philosophy. Consciousness is also fairly linear, and I know you're going to remain skeptic of this - but consider the following: if consciousness was completely observant, to observe all surroundings or a majority, rather than given entities, then how are subliminals existent - how have advertises discovered, manifested and took advantage of this all-powerful existence? More importantly, society; why are humans so easily influenced? Our will is limited only to our awareness; the choice between... say tea or coffee can be conscious; your choice, nothing else. On the contrary however, voluntary acts can still be processed unconscious - and regardless of nature; our subconscious mind has been found to accept any new information regardless as to whether it's positive or negative. Luckily however, we have a conscious mind - and that is what we're conscious of, and can even most inconveniently function involuntary. You could think of the conscious mind as a firewall - an average firewall - or weak in comparison to the capacity of data captured by the subconscious mind. The firewall would attempt to block any data we see as insignificant or inappropriate; perhaps someone told you to give your money to a wealthy person - you don't want to, and had been completely aware of this, and thus, you rejected the request. Although the subconscious however, will process information regardless as to whether it's good or bad, we will not always complete a given statement instructed to our unconscious, but rather sometimes we find ourselves completing something we're unaware of. Given that we're at a higher state of consciousness, we'll have more awareness. Most notably, we'd percieve seconds rather than minutes or chunks of time, and thus, time would process slower. Given a higher state, and then perhaps miliseconds, a lower state, minutes or 10s of seconds, and so forth. When you where discussing of the brain processing more consciousness whilst using a computer system: our brains would be processing data subjectively, or a majority of such. Rather than to perceive individual letters consciously, our minds process them unconscious to eliminate the requirements for higher consciousness. For instance; viewing each individual letter and comprehending words, sentences, and so forth simultaneously would require more effort than to relate to something already accomplished; to relate to the meaning of the word, rather than the letters - the groups, and so forth - all of which would become conscious, whilst anything else significant but requiring the most effort to become unconscious. Another reason due to ourselves not seeing letters very often but rather words and sentences, is due to repetition. As a result of reading so often, our minds no longer need to process the data consciously and thus, it becomes a primary routine. To shorten this down a little, you could see.... -The higher the consciousness, the more data notable and the more time noticed as a result of percepting seconds rather than groups of seconds or such. -The lower the consciousness, the less data and the less time processed. When focused on any given object, less data is required to be produced from becoming subliminal to conscious; for the surroundings to fade as your reading a book perhaps. On the contrary however, when unfocused, we may notice more data and more time pass by. Also, another way to see it would be perhaps this, based on a simply idea I thought of a week or so ago - others have probably thought of it also. Remember the 10%; 90% myth? I wouldn't necessarily consider it to be myth; I'd rather consider 10% to be conscious - our consciousness, whilst 90% to be unconscious. The more conscious we become, perhaps 10% then becomes 15%, and thus 90% becomes 85%. Anyways, sorry for the long post and hope this helps.

[Arutad]

Personally, and I'm sure others seem to view in a similar or coincidentally the same perspective as myself, I see the consciousness in awareness - as it is purely defined. The higher the consciousnesses, the higher the awareness and so forth. In this context it isn't clear what the reasons are for creating two different terms for the same thing, I figure that for you consciousness is the same as awareness, but awareness signifies that consciousness is locked onto something. But such a division is artificial, can your consciousness ever be locked onto nothing? You seem to think that it's possible and that your consciousness often goes blank?! The more awareness, the more presence and thus, the more entities and attributes become notable. More presence of what? And how more presence of it produces more entities? Presence sounds like a religious term to me... At least I came upon it in some New Age book. So, skipping that for now, you say more awareness -> more entities notable, but how would you go about proving that? It's not convincing so far, I understand that you can speculate about what "higher state of awareness" would be and how the amount of entities would change from that, but there's no link. It's a speculation, based on your personal idea of what "the higher state of awareness" could be, not on actual knowledge or even trying to figure it out. Heck, maybe it doesn't even exist! You can't prove something by saying that there's something very vague and you think it works "like this", therefore drawing some particular conclusions is possible... You see, it's like proving something backwards. First you say that there's a particular connection between things that you want them to have, and then you sort everything out to fit it. Conditions gain characteristics, things start working particular ways, and voila, it all fits more or less, you arrived at a result that you wanted to get in the first place. Not that I'm criticizing you for that, I just find it too unreliable to create believes from proving backwards. Consciousness is defined as your awareness, not your inner-activity; inner activity would be to say your subjective mind at work - forming the letters on the screen, concluding as to whether a given website as a forum or such - converting currency, recognizing faces, and so forth. The act of this is mostly sophisticated; to be based upon previous complexity. If awareness is the mind directed to something, then making letters out of symbols is awareness. Extremely fast awareness perhaps but still. When you read you can't suddenly find out that it's an unconscious act and that your mind is blank, i.e. that you don't remember separate meanings of letters or how they look like but still manage to read, you always remember that. You remember, but you do everything so fast that it creates an illusion as if you possessed no such knowledge. If it's already understood that given symbols are to become letters, then there's no need for the subconscious to repeat to complexity - there's no need to repeat the entire process over again, but rather the most significant - and definite philosophy. You say that once we learn to make letters out of symbols, there's no necessity to make letters out of symbols? Then what happens, are they physically transformed into letters, so that you wouldn't have to repeat the process of transforming each symbol into a letter? Our will is limited only to our awareness; the choice between... say tea or coffee can be conscious; your choice, nothing else. On the contrary however, voluntary acts can still be processed unconscious - and regardless of nature; our subconscious mind has been found to accept any new information regardless as to whether it's positive or negative. Well, maybe that's a "conscious will" then, and there is an unconscious one . After all, nothing forces your subconsciousness to behave in certain ways, and yet it can make you go crazy sometimes, or choose something else unexpected. But wherever decisions come from, it's still "we", nobody takes decisions for us, unless you think that the subconsciousness is a separate entity installed in your mind by aliens . Given that we're at a higher state of consciousness, we'll have more awareness. Most notably, we'd percieve seconds rather than minutes or chunks of time, and thus, time would process slower. Why would we perceive seconds rather then minutes? Maybe we won't. Maybe we would, but then maybe speed of our perception would change so much that we'll be able to notice huge amounts of details fast. You say we would notice seconds and become slow, but where's the explanation why it would happen in this particular way, and why, say, what I offered above wouldn't happen instead? a lower state, minutes or 10s of seconds Hm, I doubt that I'd totally blank out every minute or every 10 seconds under any circumstances...