Thread: 5000 year old WILD technique. Very easy, and very effective.

Yes Dreamqueen. Very good answers.
The thing with OBEs and such, is it is so hard to prove because it's like asking how big the universe is.
I am selfish because I have had a few what I call OBEs, as I have had many LDs, and the fact I had and have them, I could just enjoy and keep to myself.
Also I know from having both, the difference in OBE to LD.
It is like your energy body rips from your physical body and the clarity is way beyond any Lucid Dream.
You know it is you and leave your room and travel to one of the infinite plains of existance.
I have had no false awakening or LD start or feel like this, so whatever it is it is something more and something greater.
If anyone chooses to not believe, that's ok.
You have to experience it to realise how different it is.

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Yes Dreamqueen. Very good answers.
The thing with OBEs and such, is it is so hard to prove because it's like asking how big the universe is.
I am selfish because I have had a few what I call OBEs, as I have had many LDs, and the fact I had and have them, I could just enjoy and keep to myself.
Also I know from having both, the difference in OBE to LD.
It is like your energy body rips from your physical body and the clarity is way beyond any Lucid Dream.
You know it is you and leave your room and travel to one of the infinite plains of existance.
I have had no false awakening or LD start or feel like this, so whatever it is it is something more and something greater.
If anyone chooses to not believe, that's ok.
You have to experience it to realise how different it is.

You are assuming I havn't had these experiences.
I have.
Yet, I have experimented with them and can find nothing that suggests they are anything other than the construction of the human mind.
You are doing the human mind an injustice assuming it is not capable of creating such experiences.

I do not choose not to believe, I am forced to not take it as fact because of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
If i had a choice, I'd like it to be real. It'd be a great thing to be true.
Unfortunatly, it's not.
We cannot choose reality and truth. We have to learn about it and accept it as it is.

The feeling or conviction that something is true based on how REAL it feels to you, is not a good yardstick to measure things by.
If you don't agree, pay a visit to any mental hospital and see just how convinced many of these poor people are that there delusions are utterly true. It's very very real to them.

Personaly i think you are underestimating the power of both your own mind and lucid dreaming.
Which is a shame.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You are assuming I havn't had these experiences.
I have.
Yet, I have experimented with them and can find nothing that suggests they are anything other than the construction of the human mind.
You are doing the human mind an injustice assuming it is not capable of creating such experiences.

I do not choose not to believe, I am forced to not take it as fact because of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
If i had a choice, I'd like it to be real. It'd be a great thing to be true.
Unfortunatly, it's not.
We cannot choose reality and truth. We have to learn about it and accept it as it is.

The feeling or conviction that something is true based on how REAL it feels to you, is not a good yardstick to measure things by.
If you don't agree, pay a visit to any mental hospital and see just how convinced many of these poor people are that there delusions are utterly true. It's very very real to them.

Personaly i think you are underestimating the power of both your own mind and lucid dreaming.
Which is a shame.

Firstly, I was talking about all answers, not just yours spaceexplorer. Sorry if it wasnt clear.
This one is a quoted response however, so firstly, you said you have had these experiences. You can't have had my experiences and what if they were profoundly different?
It is not all based and genericly bonded to your experience mate.
I was talking specifically about my experience and not saying all have the same.
In contrast we all probably have the same basic mechanism of separation take place but the following clarity, strength and following experience will differ, as will many other facets if one goes deeper into it.
Each has individual experiences and at obviously different levels.

Next, I am not saying the mind has nothing to do with it, and I agree we prob store our consciousness there.
When I said "I have had no false awakening or LD start or feel like this, so whatever it is it is something more and something greater", isnt it obvious I meant OBEs are something more than a LD?
I thought that was pretty clear. I think you saw something else.

Next, how can you say unfortunately its not true. Is your opinion more valid than others? Are you an Oracle?

Lastly, I am not underestimating Lucidity, just saying this OBE experience was something more and different. Please dont extrapolate what you want to see.
Many people have OBE'd from a lucid dream. This also shows the differring intensity and experience of an OBE (or how would know the difference in transition).
(PS: No personal offence - I value your opinion and enjoy debating)

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Next, how can you say unfortunately its not true. Is your opinion more valid than others? Are you an Oracle?

Don't shoot the messenger.

It's not true, because truth as we define it in the english language is "a fact that has been verified"
There is absolutely no evidence to back it up, there is no verification.
This isn't about opinion, it's about evidence, verification. It's not my opinion, it's not my evidence. Don't get fustrated with me because I'm accepting (after doing a lot of research into) the research and experiments of thousands of scientists (current, and throughout history) over someones "strong feeling" that something is true.

Try a simple experiment with yourself.
Do it in a lucid dream, and then do it in an OBE.
Take a pack of cards, shuffle them, then stick 4 of them, facing upwards on top of your wardrobe. Don't look at the cards, but next time you are in an OBE or a Lucid Dream... go find out what they are.
Write them down when you awaken, and then go and check if they are the same. If they are, keep trying this, rule out other ways you may know.
Once you are satisfied that you can do this, and you have truely left your body, then bring that evidence back to the rest of us. Then we can talk about reality, not feelings.


I'm also certain our experiences were different. That is the nature of being a subjective human being. However, like I said before, there is NO relevance in how real or vivid something feels, if something feels different, more real, more vivid, that does not MAKE IT more real... The feeling and experience is subjective and has no relevance to the reality of what is going on. Talk to someone with clinical paranoia or schizophrenia if you disagree.


Do you really think that not having provable, reliable evidence is a good thing? I just don't understand why people think like this.
If i were buying a car, i'd be pretty damn certain i wanted it to be proven and reliable!!

Also if you don't think that the mind can create very vivid, more than real experiences... try LSD or DMT. Both chemicals, both totally physical, both (in the right quantitys) will make you feel at one with the universe, and as if you are experiencing some unique spiritual, divine dimension.
Both are chemicals, both are simply altering your brain chemistry.

And refering to your last point, I do think that it is possible to underestimate Lucid Dreaming and the power of the mind.
Lucidity is not a set state, it can be very varied. It is a spectrum of awareness. Why is it not possible to have lucid dreams that feel more vivid, and different from others? I've certainly had them, I've also had very average mundane feeling lucid dreams. Why can there not be even more vivid more intense levels that we have yet to reach? Is it not MORE likely (occams razor and all that) that these experiences are in and of the mind? Generally the more likely answer is the correct one.
an OBE requires us to posit many many unprovable and unlikely reality models. The idea that it is all in the mind, fits perfectly into what is already known about the mind, perception and the world.
Which is best? choosing the option that least fits the rules of the universe as we know them, or the one that is the best fit?

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Next, how can you say unfortunately its not true. Is your opinion more valid than others? Are you an Oracle?

This is exactly what I was thinking.

It's fair enough to say that you don't believe that OBE's are more than the physical mind's creation.
But to say that you know better than anyone who disagrees with you is just lame and princess like.

Originally Posted by bushi

This is exactly what I was thinking.

It's fair enough to say that you don't believe that OBE's are more than the physical mind's creation.
But to say that you know better than anyone who disagrees with you is just lame and princess like.

The truth isn't something we get to pick and choose, depending on what we want to be real.
This is not about belief, what I believe is utterly irrelevant.
We can't accept everyones belief as "equal" because that's not how truth works (there are people out there who believe that homosexuals, blacks and women are lesser beings... do we have to accept thier beliefs as equal and true too now?)

How about we stop having beliefs, and start KNOWING, start investigating, start looking for evidence. Backing up our beliefs (which is just another word for "personal theory") with evidence.

No one is going to take anyone seriously without evidence.
Unless you'd like the courts of law to start thinking that way too?
"no your honour, we don't have any evidence, but we definitely believe this guy killed the deceased"

Once again, don't blame the messenger.

It's not my fault that all of modern science contradicts the entire idea of out of body experiences.

Truth:"a fact that has been verified"

I didn't make up the definition of truth,
I also didn't make up Physics.

IF you want to be at odds with the world because your belief makes you "feel good", don't get grumpy with people who respect hard earned facts over belief.

One last thing...
If you're personal view of the world is being threatened by what I say... then please prove it to me. Give us some evidence. If it's real, if it's genuine, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about when people start testing it. Defensivness and falling back on calling people "princess" or other derogitory remarks, don't help your argument, they show as fear that you may not be right.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

The truth isn't something we get to pick and choose, depending on what we want to be real.
This is not about belief, what I believe is utterly irrelevant.
We can't accept everyones belief as "equal" because that's not how truth works (there are people out there who believe that homosexuals, blacks and women are lesser beings... do we have to accept thier beliefs as equal and true too now?)

How about we stop having beliefs, and start KNOWING, start investigating, start looking for evidence. Backing up our beliefs (which is just another word for "personal theory") with evidence.

No one is going to take anyone seriously without evidence.
Unless you'd like the courts of law to start thinking that way too?
"no your honour, we don't have any evidence, but we definitely believe this guy killed the deceased"

Once again, don't blame the messenger.

It's not my fault that all of modern science contradicts the entire idea of out of body experiences.

Truth:"a fact that has been verified"

I didn't make up the definition of truth,
I also didn't make up Physics.

IF you want to be at odds with the world because your belief makes you "feel good", don't get grumpy with people who respect hard earned facts over belief.

One last thing...
If you're personal view of the world is being threatened by what I say... then please prove it to me. Give us some evidence. If it's real, if it's genuine, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about when people start testing it. Defensivness and falling back on calling people "princess" or other derogitory remarks, don't help your argument, they show as fear that you may not be right.

I know the above is prob a retort to bushi, but I would also like to respond:

Well many of us believe we will Lucid Dream each night and even chant it to ourselves. So I bevieve belief is important. This is but one example.

It is funny you use the term "blacks" in a satire about people thinking they are lesser beings.

"Dont blame the messenger" is a cop out too. You yourself believe the non-proof methodology. Why not stand up and be counted?

Beliefs are what make us who we are, and what keeps us going instead of waiting in anguish for a proof to be revealed.

and what if we don't believe in ourselves, what then?

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

I know the above is prob a retort to bushi, but I would also like to respond:

Well many of us believe we will Lucid Dream each night and even chant it to ourselves. So I bevieve belief is important. This is but one example.

It is funny you use the term "blacks" in a satire about people thinking they are lesser beings.

"Dont blame the messenger" is a cop out too. You yourself believe the non-proof methodology. Why not stand up and be counted?

Beliefs are what make us who we are, and what keeps us going instead of waiting in anguish for a proof to be revealed.

and what if we don't believe in ourselves, what then?

Good point about using the word "blacks", blame my greatgrandfather, he's a black guy, and I think I picked up the term from him. Never used in offence, always used in the same way that "blonde", "tall guy", "lucid dream obsessive" are.
- either way, good tactic for trying to undermine my character to try and undermine my argument. Shame neither are related. Wouldn't it have just been easier to offer some evidence in favour of OBEs if they are true and all that rather than go for character assasination?

Why do I believe in non-proof methodology? You need to back up statements like that. I'm not the one claming that the human being is a soul, that exists independant of the body and can pop out just for a stroll.
I am pretty sure I can back up all of my world views with enough evidence to make them convincing. Other than my Invisible friend, Howard, only he's definitely real, because I know and believe completely that it's true. I can't prove it, but other people have invisible friends... we can't all be wrong can we? Oh and he's a unicorn from Mars too.... although don't ask him to explain what mars is like... as he says that having to prove himself is pointless, and people should just believe... if they don't they are "closed minded"


Actually I disagree that beliefs are what make us what we are.
Do you believe yourself to be male or female? or do you just know it.
When you are in love, do you believe it? or know it?
When you are hungry, do you believe it? or know it?
When the sun rises, do you believe it? or know it?

I do not believe i will lucid dream, I know i will, given the right effort and circumstances.
I use facts and knowledge to try and induce a state. I HOPE that I will get the balance right, and that my brain chemistry, psychology and all the rest will work in harmony to produce one.

You're still not providing any proof for your beliefs.
Do you believe in gravity?
Of course not, you know it's there. You could prove it if required too.
Now, if OBEs are as real as gravity, then surely it would be as easy to prove!

Here are a couple of articles for people who want to expand thier knowledge on OBEs and don't limit themselves to reading that only backs up what they already believe:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/he...gy/03shad.html

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/si91nde.html

Both fascinating and worth a read.


What if we don't believe in ourselves?
Hmmm interesting. And actually if I take you literally, raises another question about OBEs. How do you define self?
Are you the same self you were when you were 5 years old?
What is it that leaves the body? your memories? your personality?
But if thats the case, why do drugs and electrical impulses directly into the brain effect those memories and personality traits?
Maybe there is no self at all, maybe the idea of self is an illusion caused by the information processing system we call a brain. And if there is no self (as the buddhists suggest) then who are you? what leaves the body?
Maybe Self is actually like the image you are looking at on the screen. A collection of pixels that seen in one way appear to make something bigger than the individual parts, but in truth are independant processes.

Peel and eat an orange... at what point during the process of peeling and eating does it stop being an orange? Is a single segment an orange?
is the peel an orange?
Is self like an orange?
Where does the orange go when it is eaten?
Does it reappear on the astral as a whole orange... free from its physical constraints? or Is an orange simply a collection of parts, and we use the linguistic and mental trick of seeing it as a singular entity. Maybe self is like that orange... maybe we are just a mental trick, an illusion.

You see, that's one of the philisophical dillemas with Out of Body Experiences. You have to define what the self is.
What is it that leaves the body? What is it to be human?
You see I know that by the end of my day in the physical world tommorow, my self image will have changed. It's changing every moment we have this conversation. I find it hard to pinpoint what this soul, this astral body, would actually be.
I know what it feels like to be a "self", but i also know that what it feels like to be a self will have changed in a few hours (well every second).

I think the "self" is a bit like "the internet". It's non physical in as such as you cannot hold it. But it exists purely in the physical realm, it is a network of interactions and impulses (all of which are physical - even if they are electrical and chemical), existing in a physical hardware.

I'm just pretty much fence sitting mate.

I'm just stating that you are being very irrational and selfish.

I don't know whether OBE is real or not. I don't have proof and I haven't experienced it.

So don't get on your highhorse at me princess.

You're not the all knowing guru mate.

Originally Posted by bushi

I'm just pretty much fence sitting mate.

I'm just stating that you are being very irrational and selfish.

I don't know whether OBE is real or not. I don't have proof and I haven't experienced it.

So don't get on your highhorse at me princess.

You're not the all knowing guru mate.

You clearly havn't read a word I've written.

Do you seriously think I don't want OBEs to be real. of course I do.
I'm going to die like everyone else.
I don't want death to be the end of my existence.

But unfortunatly for me, it seems that all the brightest minds out there, all the most respected scientists, all say much the same thing.
That there is no evidence for life after death or the soul existing outside of the body (or the soul existing full stop!)
But, For OBEs to be real also implys that the death of the body is not the end of life.

Who in thier right mind WOULDNT want that to be true?
I want it to be true. But my wanting it to be true, however much, wont make it so if its not.

You think it's easy to accept that Death is the end of it all?
You think I want to be arguing for the case that my life is all i have, and death is the end of my contact with all I love and care for?
No.


I'm not on any high horse.
I'd just rather accept the truth, than live a lie. And all the evidence out there in the world, currently points to us humans living, then dying... and that is that.
It's a scarey prospect for us all... should it make us be irrational and belive things that arnt based on facts? just because it frightens us? No.

At least if i know this life is all I have, then I'll make the bloody most of it, and make the most of the brief lifetime i share with those I love, and the world i love.

Originally Posted by bushi

I'm just stating that you are being very irrational

Interesting, I found them to be the polar opposite. Even juroara (who doesn't agree with his sentiments) seems to agree - they are heavy on logic.

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Keeping on asking us to prove OBEs is tiring I must say.
There is no proof yet and if/when there is proof, it will prob be by the Monroe Institute or testing facility similar.

Glad to hear it. The point that has been raised is not to declare OBEs as fact, when they're not quite at that stage yet. There may be proof, and I'm sure it will be uncovered if it's a real phenomena. The inability to provide proof to date just hints that, at the very least, many of the reported OBEs are simply LDs.

Originally Posted by juroara

now I have a question to ask you.

how many people does it take to perceive the same thing for it to be an objective reality?

how many dreamers have to share the same dream, interact in the same dream space for the dream to be an objective reality?

four? five? six? seven? eight? nine? ten? eleven? let me know when I hit a number that makes reality objective. one hundred? one thousand? one million?

isn't the answer it only takes two?

No number of people perceiving something will mystically cause it to become a reality, the universe hasn't been observed to work that way (though it would be cool..). It's like asking how many followers does it take to make a deity a reality?
Here is a good example (in my opinion one of the finest optical illusions you'll find).
http://sparkbugg.wordpress.com/2007/...egative-color/.

How many people seeing the image in full color would it take, for it to be an objective reality?

Originally Posted by juroara

People who have astral projected, have met other people who are astral projecting in the astral projection - and confirm it later in real time.

But never under controlled conditions. There is an entire spectrum of anecdotal claims (in all manner of fields), we can't be expected to believe on this basis alone.

Originally Posted by juroara

of course, this isn't good enough evidence for science, the testimony of others. but since when does science decide if testimony is important?

Science doesn't decide anything, it's just a methodology. If you have a demonstrably better way to go about uncovering the truth, that would be asbsorbed into science (and thus modify it). Even if that meant blind acceptable of testimony - though it has been established this is not a robust way to go about identifying the truth, at least in our universe.

Originally Posted by juroara

Imagine if every single person heard the voice of God, at the same time
...
And science doesn't have any way of measuring what is and what isn't the voice of God.

How did everyone know it was the word of God then? Wouldn't it be equally plausible that it had been an alien race messing with our head?

Originally Posted by juroara

Or even..lucid dreaming. What objective proof do we have that lucid dreaming is real? Last I check there was NONE.

Oh so wrong. As a youth I was told dreams last 10 seconds or less (in actual time), even though they feel like they last for much longer. People in lucid dreams can communicate via eye movement signals to observers, and it has been established there is a roughly 1:1 correspondence between dream time and actual time. Of course these same signalling techniques concretely established that lucid dreams were real in the first place. Some claim dreams feel to span days or centuries, the nature of these dreams remains unconfirmed (to my knowledge).

Originally Posted by juroara

Yet we are too cowardly to do the same for other testimonies, like NDEs and OBEs, because they would burst someones bubble of what is and what isn't.

As spaceexplorer painstakingly pointed out, it would be 100% absolutely awesome if OBEs were real. On the contrary, it wouldn't burst someone's bubble, it would open up a new realm of possibility.

Originally Posted by juroara

do you understand? Science, the objective study of reality, has no way of telling you what you did or did not experience.

Frighteningly, it may only be a matter of time before this is no longer the case. These developments are a little disturbing, but at the same time unsurprising.

http://www.pinktentacle.com/2008/12/...ly-from-brain/
http://www.electropsychology.com/bra...-make-them.php

Originally Posted by juroara

Science will never be able to tell you if what you are experiencing is ultimately real or isn't.

That's what science is about, telling you which bits are real (reality as shared by everyone else), and which bits are your own subjective perceptions. It often answers the question 'did that just happen?', but also delves into the why.

Originally Posted by juroara

some one save this poor soul from his boring left brain!

Just be careful of wanting to believe, for the sake of staving off the boredom of logic. It's nice to let your imagination run wild, it can be entertaining, but how do you know where to draw the line between real and imagined? At the same time (in the context of 'boring' logic), the universe has enough wonder as it is, it doesn't need to be embellished.

I roughly understand where you're coming from on your other comments. These mystical techniques can be great for personal development (which is important), indeed that's what they were developed for. Perhaps not so good for understanding how the universe works.

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Yes Dreamqueen. Very good answers.
The thing with OBEs and such, is it is so hard to prove because it's like asking how big the universe is.
I am selfish because I have had a few what I call OBEs, as I have had many LDs, and the fact I had and have them, I could just enjoy and keep to myself.
Also I know from having both, the difference in OBE to LD.
It is like your energy body rips from your physical body and the clarity is way beyond any Lucid Dream.
You know it is you and leave your room and travel to one of the infinite plains of existance.
I have had no false awakening or LD start or feel like this, so whatever it is it is something more and something greater.
If anyone chooses to not believe, that's ok.
You have to experience it to realise how different it is.

Have you considered that while your experience is true (ie that OBE is different to regular LD), interpretation of the phenomenon is not or, at least, just one of the possible ones? For example, it may be an LD but in another "mode" than regular ones (trips for different drugs may have very different general feeling so LDs probable can also be different, actually, if one read DV he may noticed very strange LDs which are different to regular ones) or LD with "unnatural" high clarity. I remember I read on DV an exercise to get LD to such degree of clarity and stability that RCs start to pass .

Originally Posted by Phantasos

Have you considered that while your experience is true (ie that OBE is different to regular LD), interpretation of the phenomenon is not or, at least, just one of the possible ones? For example, it may be an LD but in another "mode" than regular ones (trips for different drugs may have very different general feeling so LDs probable can also be different, actually, if one read DV he may noticed very strange LDs which are different to regular ones) or LD with "unnatural" high clarity. I remember I read on DV an exercise to get LD to such degree of clarity and stability that RCs start to pass .

Yes, quite possibly.
But from a lot of reading of specific OBE experiences, mine fit perfectly to many many others experiences of OBE.
The fact many have gone to OBE from Lucid Dreams makes me believe it is beyond a Lucid Dream.
As in above threads, there is no clinical proof of OBEs, but so many similar experiences (individually detailed ones) make me believe it is OBE.

To be honest I don't really care what it is called. I am very happy I am, and can experience it.
I am now working on bettering myself as a human being during OBE by looking into myself purely with no waking world persona clouding my perception, and also trying to break out of the Earthly hold into space.
(Again I don't even care if it is a hallucination - it is so cool)